Unless you're the librarian, with maybe two or three exceptions, spells just don't seem worth it anymore. With all the new powerful unique items there almost isn't a spell left that isn't done better by a unique item (cursed sphere = shriveling - skill check + choice of stamina or sanity, etc). No one has bothered visiting the magick shop since Dunwich. "Weapon immune" was an interesting decision but it's just not common enough (even if you don't use other expansion monsters) to affect much.

Anyone else think so? Any ideas to make them a viable choice again? We were thinking of starting at giving player a choice between sanity and stamina for costs (part of the reason spells fell off was sanity is always lost faster than stamina anyways; you have to go into combat with the intent of winning the combat check, not necessarily with the horror check).

I think the size of the spell deck (assuming you use them all) is definately prohibitive, but I actually like many of the spells, and there are some in there you cant substitute for coolness (find gate, arcane insight for ex) and also many spells seem to have more combo functionality than other items do making them interesting to play with as you discover new ways to use them that arent immediately apparent when you just read the card. I would suggest trimming the spell deck, but that opens up a can o' dholes around here...

as for weapon immunity I agree its too rare. It could have made a huge difference to the utility of the spell deck. If you are a masochist, try my house rule:

"playthings of children": Each time any investigator enters combat with a monster of 2 or more toughness, roll die equal to its toughness. On a roll of 1, the monster has weapon immunity.

Play this with Zoe and see the difference. It removes a lot of the certainty of success to many combats and injects more tension into that choice. No longer do investigators smugly take on the terrible experiment. Players suddenly remember what it feels like just to stub their toe against a door...

There are a few monsters very hard to kill. This especially applies to monsters with double immunity and high toughness. A good example is the Colour out of Space. There are a few others in this category, as well. God of the Bloody Tongue, maybe, would be another. And there are yet others.

We look for spells such as Greater Banishment or Red Sign of Shudde M'ell to take out these monsters. I think "Dread Curse of Azathoth" is another spell in this category.

Other spells are nice to use. Some like Shivel have a zero sanity cost to use, and are one handed. If you have Healing Stone in your possession, you can throw spells with a sanity cost of 1 and recoup your sanity loss immediately with Healing Stone. This is a valuable item to hold if you like to cast spells.

One thing I've agreed with in the former message is the need to clean up and editi the spell deck. We have cut ours down by about one third or more, taking out many of the worthless "dreck" spells. Otherwise, when you draw spells, you are all too likely to get something worthless. We also added one "Red Sign" spell card by taking a worthless spell card and printing "Red Sign" on it with a magic marker. I believe the spell deck in original form only comes with one "Red Sign," but I could be wrong.

Anyway, we use spells quite a lot. Keep in mind that some characters are beautifully set up to use spells. It seems a shame to not bother to get any spells if you have such a character. One example is the female "Explorer" in the new Innsmouth set, with a lore of 6.

I will be interested to read some of the other comments in this thread.

Glasgow Scotland said:

Assume you mean Wither (San 0, +3 combat). Also, Healing Stone doesn't immediately recoup the Sanity, HS is Upkeep phase, so you might get hit with a Sanity-loss that you're unable to take, because you used one point on Shrivelling. Unlikely, but possible.

Glasgow Scotland said:

Waitress I think you wanted to say.

]There are a few monsters very hard to kill. This especially applies to monsters with double immunity and high toughness. A good example is the Colour out of Space. There are a few others in this category, as well. God of the Bloody Tongue, maybe, would be another. And there are yet others.

We look for spells such as Greater Banishment or Red Sign of Shudde M'ell to take out these monsters. I think "Dread Curse of Azathoth" is another spell in this category.

What good would these spells do against double immunity monsters? Magical Immunity still counts against them.

Other spells are nice to use. Some like Shivel have a zero sanity cost to use, and are one handed. If you have Healing Stone in your possession, you can throw spells with a sanity cost of 1 and recoup your sanity loss immediately with Healing Stone. This is a valuable item to hold if you like to cast spells.

That's the thing though. As far as combat goes, there is always plenty of unique items that do the same job without sanity loss or the risk of spell checks. Who cares about wither when you have the ancient knife? The cursed sphere makes shriveling pointless. Or any other dozens of magical weapons in the unique item deck like fetch stick. There's even quite a few unique items that do a better job than a lot of the non-combat spells. At this point almost all the spells are just unique items with a chance of failure that make you go insane.

One thing I've agreed with in the former message is the need to clean up and editi the spell deck. We have cut ours down by about one third or more, taking out many of the worthless "dreck" spells.

Which spells?

Anyway, we use spells quite a lot. Keep in mind that some characters are beautifully set up to use spells. It seems a shame to not bother to get any spells if you have such a character. One example is the female "Explorer" in the new Innsmouth set, with a lore of 6.

Haven't played all the Innsmouth investigators yet, but so far the only ones worth bothering with spells are the librarian or the third hand lady (singer?) with lots and lots of elder crystals. (I did laugh though when I saw that even naive idealist Tommy Muldoon has more sanity than Dexter).

GrooveChamp said:

Red Sign can remove Physical Immunity and drops Toughness by 1. Greater Banishment gets right by Immunities.

Ah. I was under the impression that red sign didn't work at all against anything with magic immunity, but I guess it just means "can't nullify magic immunity". Still, combing the spell deck deck just so you can get a red sign in case a colour shows up is pretty situational. It'd probably be less work to just close a square gate.

One of our players came up with a good name for the spell deck, "Hope you draw 'Find Gate' ".

Spells are still better than nothing, combat-wise at least. Of course, with people wussying out and allowing re-draws of Tasks and Missions , of course you're gonna have more weapons right from the get-go. Trimming decks of dren will also boost the good stuff to the surface. Unless it's Marie trying to pass her PS, I don't bother with Ye Olde Magic Shoppe, but then again, I don't bother with General Store either.

Drawing only 2 cards instead of 3, like the other shops, really hurts the magic store's utility. It hardly ever gets used. Furthermore, there are so many spell tomes in the unique deck, that you can get more than enough spells in a game without shopping specifically for them once.

As others have said, trimming the spell deck is your best bet for making it more equivalent in power to the unique deck. The are so many badly designed spells in there that it can be considered more like bugfixing than cheating.

(By the by, I also consider Arcane Insight to be horribly balanced as written. That one should really, really have been a cast-and-discard spell.)

One big reason why spells are lackluster compared to uniques, is that the balance between magic weapons and combat spells is so out of whack. Wither, the bread and butter basic combat spell is still weaker (spell check, and one combat only) than the weakest magic weapon in the unique deck. Shrivelling and the Red Sign are fine, great even, but Dread Curse is another stinker. Sure, it's powerful, but I'd rather have Shrivelling and another one handed weapon or spell. It's cost and chance of failure are simply too high, compared to other combos.

Yeah, the only spell combo that outdoes weapons would be dual shrivelings, but only the librarian could use them for more than one or two combats.

You should get something extra over items for the sanity cost and chance of failure, but you don't, and like people said only drawing 2 of them from the shop only further discourages going for them over uniques. I think the only time anyone bothers is if we're absolutely swimming in money and the curiousity shop has closed due to terror, but by that point you're pressed for time for more important things.

We try to come up with house rules to make them worth it but can't think of anything that wouldn't tip the scales and make them overpowered. Closest we can think of is allowing their cost to be paid in sanity AND stamina.

Hannibal Rex said:

yes it could be considered that way, but erroneously This is what people tell themselves when they KNOW they are stacking the deck

Personally I play with all the cards, that way, when I draw FG, its a major event. And I continue to have fun with the "dreck" and often find sly ways of turning lemons into lemonade in tight situations. I am not cheesed off when I draw no wham bam spells because Im not really playing Arkham to win, Im playing with the same kind of fascination that causes people to be unable to take their eyes off of a car collision.

Hannibal Rex said:

Id have to disagree there, its definately a powerful spell, but its fairly balanced in my experience:

Casting Modifier: -4
Sanity Cost: 1
Casting phase: Upkeep
Effect: Cast and exhaust to look at the top 3 Mythos cards in the deck, then replace them on top of the deck in any order you choose. When casting this spell, you gain a +1 bonus to your Spell check for each Tome in your possession.

First, you have to draw the spell. Odds are slim there as quantity is low (well, it is if you dont cheat ). Second, its a darn difficult spell to cast on its own. You will need additional items to make it work well enough to reliably use. That means either additional tomes or a high lore investigator (5 or 6) with a blessing or some other trick. Tomes tied up in arcane insight cannot be discarded and so often cannot be used (another subtle cost). Now add in all the time you use to acquire these items, either from shopping or other investigators, assuming of course you can get them. Time is the most serious cost of all in this game. Then of course theres the 1 sanity for casting. Added all together, this is a serious challenge unless you get lucky. In my games, AI makes about as many significant appearances as flying pigs, and when it does, I frequently end up with 3 cards that equally screw me into the ground, like a next act, a rumour and a gate burst. Topping it off with a discard after use condition would make it just not worth the effort.

dj2.0 said:

First, you have to draw the spell. Odds are slim there as quantity is low (well, it is if you dont cheat ). Second, its a darn difficult spell to cast on its own. You will need additional items to make it work well enough to reliably use. That means either additional tomes or a high lore investigator (5 or 6) with a blessing. Now add in all the time you use to acquire these items, either from shopping or other investigators, assuming of course you can get them. Time is the most serious cost of all in this game. Then of course theres the 1 sanity for casting. Added all together, this is a serious challenge unless you get lucky. In my games, AI makes about as many significant appearances as flying pigs, and when it does, I frequently end up with 3 cards that equally screw me into the ground, like a next act, a rumour and a gate burst. Topping it off with a discard after use condition would make it just not worth the effort.

Of course, when pigs do fly and you get AI during setup in a game with Kate Winthrop (who also draw +1 Lore Skill), snooze button breaks. And of course, there is that unnamable investigator from KH or just the fixed UI she gets that can get you AI fast. Good thing IH fixed things in that regard.

Agreed, there are some times when you will get these things in alignment and then you really pwn the mythos. But as you said, IH fixed that.

I do think you can still pull off AI + Kate snooze-win even with IH, just need someone to breast-feed Clues into IH. Roland would probably be the best option, Patrice another, though she won't get as many Clues from her abilities. Also, no Martial Law to worry about, since doom track shouldn't get to the half-way mark. Rhan-Tegoth might still screw the pooch, as might Zhar if you roll doubles.

True you could (if you were really set on screwing the game this way) still pull it off with IH, especially if you do not randomly select investigators. But then you are really trying to frag the system, and with that kind of attitude, there isnt really much that could stop you devising other abuses either, like calling a glass jawed Hastur on turn 1, and 57 varieties of other cheese that are being turned up even as you read these words. You have to be a) ridiculously lucky or b) predetermined to screw the game to pull off stunts like this. AI cannot be blamed for that its a matter of playing styles and what people want from the game. As it is AI is fine. In the end, a knife can be used to kill, or to cook. In itself, the knife isnt responsible for either.

Dam was right -- when I mentioned a new investigator from the Innsmouth Ex., I meant to say Waitress, not Explorer. She has a lore of 6. Combined with that, I drew Psychology as my skill, so I get to upgrade each die number by 1 -- e.g., from 4 to 5, or from 5 to 6. I'm well armed this game.

Several of the most powerful spells against "super" monsters may be the only way to slay some of these nasties. If they have double immunity, or four toughness like God of the Bloody Tongue, a spell like Red Sign will eliminate one of the immunities and knock down the toughness by one. Greater Banishment is powerful, and does not even have to be used in the monster's location, but costs a high price and does not work on crescent moons.

I can only hope my memory is correct on this, but I believe for those playing Dunwich Ex., one of the possible configurations of the Horror also poses very difficult problems, making it worthwhile to get one of these "nuke" spells.

We have had timses when we have skirted around or "evaded" a monster for a good part of the game because we just did not have the firepower to take it out. Some of the ones in Innsmouth have grave consequences if you fail a check -- not just a trip to the Hospital or Asylum but -- failing either the horror or combat check -- being devoured on the spot.

Also consider the "handed" thing. If you use a one handed spell, you can also use a powerful one-handed weapon -- such as the Sword of Shala-lara or whatever. If you have an investigator with a third spell hand, you can do a lot.

By the way -- I don't really understand the "Being of Ib" very well. It is very odd. One thing that seems cloudy or murky is -- "how to you get rid of it permanently?" The last game, be were very fortunate that it fell down a vortex. Usually we are not that lucky.

Glasgow Scotland said:

Huh? Beings of Ib don't leave Bokrug's sheet to the board like other Spawn monsters. Instead, you buy off a Being according to Bokrug's text.

Hm, I think spells could indeed use a bit of love, but I wouldn't go too far. Sometimes I just wonder why they didn't allow the Draw3 choose1 at the Magic Shop, I think that would have been just fine, and would have gone a long way towards balancing spells a bit more.

Spells, at their core, are generally not used for combat. They are used for utility. Obviously this can change depending on what expansions you have mixed in, but generally speaking, this is true. Sure, there are some great combat spells out there. But when I think of spells that I really want, Alchemical Process, Find Gate, Summon Shantak, Inner Beast, Markings of Isis, Feeding the Mind, Vision Quest and Heal are almost always topping spells like Shrivelling or Wither.

Unique items outdo spells in the utility department too (with rare exceptions like find gate). You could spend $5 for the 5% chance of drawing a decent spell out of the 2, or you could draw 3 unique cards for a better chance at a better weapon, utility, or elder sign.

dj2.0 said:

When I said it should've been a cast and discard spell, naturally the difficulty and SAN cost would have to be adjusted too, i. e. -2 diff., 2 SAN cost. It wouldn't be in addition to its usual difficulty.

But your defense isn't convincing. It's an uber-powerful effect, that's supposedly balanced by its low chance of success. This just doesn't work. What this actually means that it's either useless, (when you don't have the necessary lore/tomes to cast it), or, if you can cast it, which shouldn't take much more than two or three turns shopping for uniques - something that's already a priority because of Elder Signs - you pretty much can use it non-stop. Once that happens, the threat of the Mythos deck is largely neutralized. You can rearrange those three cards every turn, which means you can pretty much postpone really bad draws indefinitely. And even if you don't, you've got advance warning of what's going to happen for the rest of the game. The worst thing that can happen is that the top three cards are all equally inconvenient, but that's highly unlikely.

As you say, time is the most serious cost of all in this game. That's so because of the doom counter filling up. By manipulating the Mythos deck, Arcane Insight allows you to control the doom counter. Not perfectly, but enough that it completely changes the game. And I'm not even talking about what happens when you also have Kate or Jacqueline in the game.

As it is, it would already be more than powerful enough if it merely allowed you to look at the cards without rearranging them. Knowing in advance what's going to happen is a huge asset by itself, for a game like Arkham Horror. The rearranging on top of that is what makes it irredeemably broken. IMHO.

awp832 said:

Not true. Of the 40 spell cards in AH, 22 are combat spells. 6x Wither, 5x Shrivelling 4x Dread Curse, 3x Enchant Weapon, 2x Red Sign and 2x Bind Monster. Arguably, then main use of Flesh Ward (4x) and Voice of Ra (3x) is also for combat.

It does change once you add expansions. Dunwich and Pharao barely had combat spells, if at all.

in the base set, yes. But base set spells are on the whole, very lackluster. Dunwich adds in 8 utility spells and 0 combat spells. All 8 of Pharoah's spells are utility, except for Markings of Isis, which is only indirectly combat oriented. KiY is 2 combat, 2 utility, and 2 in-betweens (Inner Beast and 3rd Eye).

---

I wouldn't even say Inner Beast is that great. Alien device unique item does the same thing without the spell check or sanity penalty.

I guess the alchemy spell and find gate are the only ones I can think of that don't have superior unique item version.

Hannibal Rex said:

Wrong. Its actually statistically probable and the probability increases the more you use it to your advantage. You have 3 'slots'. They start to 'clog' up with bad cards. Remember, bad cards can be situational things, not just rumours, such as monster movement that opens a rift, or sends them into Innsmouth vortices. By mid to late game (which is when AI usually sees use) the chances are much higher of this happening.

And Im not looking to convince anyone but for what its worth Im not convinced by your argument either, first you say it needs to be use and discard and you want its cost reduced as well, then you say its broken because it allows you to rearrange the cards. This sounds like you just dont like the card at all, which is fine, but it doesnt make it broken. I think the designers thought very carefully about the balance of this card, and did a fair job with it, only overlooking the (admittedly very serious) snooze button it can create in some combos (and later expansions compound this). On that I agree there is a problem but I dont see that as the fault of AI, at least not solely.