For consideration: the Empire most likely did not completely disintegrate as a result of the Ewoks killing some stormtroopers. That is, the Ewoks did not defeat the Empire.

They simply assisted the Rebels by providing a distraction. Watching the Battle of Endor, it was mainly Chewbacca that actually ended up routing the Imperial forces on the Forest Moon by capturing that AT-ST.

And anyway, look at how many Ewoks there were compared to the stormtroopers! That is why they were able to overcome them initially: they hid in the trees, and then attacked suddenly and en-masse, using their advantage of numbers and stealth. Most of the times, the stormtroopers simply couldn't get a shot off because the Ewoks weren't fighting fair. Sneaking up and attacking the stormies 3 to 1 was their MO, and it worked long enough to allow the heroes of the Rebellion to do their thing.

But had the Ewoks been attacking alone, they would have been destroyed, because they couldn't deal with those AT-STs. The Empire would have recovered from the initial surprise and pressed the assault into the forest, blowing stuff up indiscriminately. Or the Death Star would have just blown up the moon.

I'll answer this separately from my previous post, as I want to discuss the core point, and not the thing about the enterpretation of that phrase.

Like I've said earlier (and I think others agreed), if only they had shown the rebel forces doing... well... anything , after the Ewok attack, then sure, I'd buy it.

But they don't.

The Ewoks attack, and then they pretty much beat the entire Imperial legion by themselves.

Leia, Han, C-3PO and R2-D2 are by the bunker trying to break in (poorly).

Chewie is the only one we see taking part in the battle.

The rebel soldiers mysteriously vanish. The essentially play no more part in the battle.

So, like I said earlier, if they had filmed it so that you see the Ewoks attacking and distracting the Imps, then the Rebels clearing them out, I'd be ok with that.

The Ewoks clearing them out on their own, not so much.

How about gravity? What if the moon of Endor's gravity was, say, 20% stronger than the other planets we visit in the SW galaxy? This would result in shorter stronger creatures....

I've just not seen any evidence that the Ewoks were strong enough to do any major damage with those rock-clubs/axes to stormtroopers in armour.

How about the fact that they did? I figure that is all the proof you need...

Eh, no. Never asked for "proof whether or not they defeated Stormtroopers.

I am officialy lost.

I suggest you go back to the start of the thread and read from there then, as this argument has veered off in lots of different directions, oftentimes just to derail it from the original topic in an attemt to win arguments.

Let's put it this way; Finland (the country) was smaller after the Winter War.

Did the russians succeed in conquering the country?

No.

Did the Finns dirve them off?

No.

No, but a tiny army that had nowhere near as much fighting power as its attacker managed to keep them off for months and they were never able to take the entire country... All the while not aided by the rebellion whose only objective it was to attack a shield generator and that killed of their Emperor and destroyed their space station.

Seems like the exact example you were looking for to me.

The Soviets won... but it was a Pyrrhic victory

Of course, for your comparison to work, the Ewoks would have to not only be armed with blasters and blaster pistols, but they'd also have to have speeders and maby even light walkers of their own.

The Finns didn't fight off the Soviets with nothing but sticks and stones, my friend.

EDIT: In fact, I'm getting so tired of people comparing a bunch of furry teddybears fighting off a high-tech military force using nothing but sticks and stones to modern-day conflicts where one side was slightly inferior to the other, but both sides having access to pretty much the same technology, that I'm just going to use this every time someone brings it up:

You can use it all you want, it only shows me you are blind to your own 'reasoning' in this topic, your own hyperbole (as illustrated by awayptyrwpn in the previous post) and the fact that you are taking a discussion about aliens, that you dislike, in a movie way too seriously.

Sure, I'm the one using hyperbole, and not the people comparing a primitive native tribe using flint-aged weapons to drive off a high-tech military force equipped with body armour, energy weapons and walking tanks.

Also, you seem to be taking it pretty seriously too, since you're still here arguing it. (unless, of course, I'm right in my assumption posted below)

When I say "the Ewoks defeated the Empire", I thought it was implied that I didn't mean that the Ewoks completely dismantled the Imperial warmachine across the galaxy and freed all the planets, but instead that they beat this legion that was on the moon at the time.

I didn't think I had to explain that.

I once got attacked by a group of 5 or 6 14 year olds... I didn't win. Eventhough I was 25 and athletic.

I'm getting the impression that you are simply trolling, so I think I'll stop replying to you after this post.

The rebel soldiers mysteriously vanish. The essentially play no more part in the battle.

Show me, or it didn't happen?

How is that trolling?

I think the movie could happen if the Ewoks totally outnumber the empire and used an example out of personal experience to underline it.

The rebel soldiers mysteriously vanish. The essentially play no more part in the battle.

Show me, or it didn't happen?

Considering that many of the individual attacks by Ewoks on the Stormtroopers which were shown on screen were pretty cartoonish, then yeah — if we saw their best being delivered on-screen, then whatever happened off-screen must have been really laughable.

I have the same problem with the Ewoks, but it doesn’t ruin my willing suspension of disbelief quite as badly. I mostly ignore the stuff we actually see on screen, and pretend that the Ewoks were actually better combatants than George was willing and able to show us.

The rebel soldiers mysteriously vanish. The essentially play no more part in the battle.

Show me, or it didn't happen?

Considering that many of the individual attacks by Ewoks on the Stormtroopers which were shown on screen were pretty cartoonish, then yeah — if we saw their best being delivered on-screen, then whatever happened off-screen must have been really laughable.

I have the same problem with the Ewoks, but it doesn’t ruin my willing suspension of disbelief quite as badly. I mostly ignore the stuff we actually see on screen, and pretend that the Ewoks were actually better combatants than George was willing and able to show us.

I pretend that the Ewoks just distracted the Imps and the Rebel commandos took out most of them for real, while the Ewoks led them on a wild goose-chase.

I'm with brad here. If I were to apply realistic techniques and what actually works IRL rigorously to the Star Wars movies, I'd have a pretty easy time killing any of the prequel Jedi. Their "technique" is laughable, and I could probably take Maul without a weapon.

Now, the films do fail to portray how a small combatant could murder the **** out of somone twice their size with relative ease convincingly, but this has little to do with the size or concept of the ewoks as hunter-cannibals nor their weaponry (which is scary efficient and shows they clearly are used to war by its design...), and more with how that particular scene was shot. Lucas doesn't seem to get that "cartoonish" holds minimal appeal to audiences, especially in an otherwise serious flick. It would have fared better with a darker, less comedic tone, and more blood.

I pretend that the Ewoks just distracted the Imps and the Rebel commandos took out most of them for real, while the Ewoks led them on a wild goose-chase.

I just watched the scene from the Battle of Endor like 15 hours ago, and that's essentially what it looks like is happening. I have always thought, "Man, it's a good thing for the Ewoks that they had Chewbacca there!" That, and the Rebels did a bang-up job of taking the initiative right at the beginning of the fight, shooting Imps and throwing them into each other (good job Leia and Chewie), sowing confusion in the ranks and giving the Ewoks that much more of the element of surprise.

I dunno, I've just never had a problem with all that. Most of the parts with the Ewoks are funny of course, and are designed to get some laughs, so I take it with that grain of salt, but the way it was presented never made me think it was implausible.

Consider, lastly, the objective of the ground battle. It wasn't "beat the Empire;" it was, "blow up the generator!"

The Ewoks did their part to accomplish the objective, and the film focuses on that. I could have used a little more Rebel commando stuff, but hey, that just means that my players can now play that part if they wanted to, and be that crack team that isn't shown onscreen.

I'm with brad here. If I were to apply realistic techniques and what actually works IRL rigorously to the Star Wars movies, I'd have a pretty easy time killing any of the prequel Jedi. Their "technique" is laughable, and I could probably take Maul without a weapon.

Now, the films do fail to portray how a small combatant could murder the **** out of somone twice their size with relative ease convincingly, but this has little to do with the size or concept of the ewoks as hunter-cannibals nor their weaponry (which is scary efficient and shows they clearly are used to war by its design...), and more with how that particular scene was shot. Lucas doesn't seem to get that "cartoonish" holds minimal appeal to audiences, especially in an otherwise serious flick. It would have fared better with a darker, less comedic tone, and more blood.

Oh I fully agree.

Like I've said before, if he'd made them either "just" the distraction and focused more on the rebel commandos, or if he had actually made them look like they could land a blow, then sure.

I think it's the combination of the ungainly movements of people with dwarfism and the ineffective looking weapons that makes it so implausable.

I think he'd have been better off using kids in the outfits (skinnier outfits too, due to the body structure of older child vs person with dwarfism) and giving them somewhat more realistic looking weapons, but even then I'd still have to go with focusing more on the actions of the rebel commandos.

Alas, I'm very certain that by this time Lucas was very much invested in the "it's for kids" approach (or rather "it needs to sell toys").

Word. I think that you were talking specifically about that scene and not ewoks in general got lost in translation somewhere, which lead to a bit of confusion. Not surprising, after all, it's been 11 pages. Personally, this thread has shown me that if I do involve ewoks in my game sometime, or play one, I'm better off doing a couple of things:

1) Describing them as short, sharptoothed, dangerous predators

2) Not using the name 'ewok'

3) Giving them a history of war against each other and Endor's megafauna, and a warrior culture, to justify their weapons design (especially the siege weapons...). They should be a mixture of tribal culture and Roman-age engineering, the latter fueled by an arms race with other tribes.

4) Have their first reaction to aliens be to determine if they're food or foe, unless somehow 'impressed' with technology so advanced it seems magic and beneign (a blaster is not beneign).

Word. I think that you were talking specifically about that scene and not ewoks in general got lost in translation somewhere, which lead to a bit of confusion. Not surprising, after all, it's been 11 pages. Personally, this thread has shown me that if I do involve ewoks in my game sometime, or play one, I'm better off doing a couple of things:

1) Describing them as short, sharptoothed, dangerous predators

2) Not using the name 'ewok'

3) Giving them a history of war against each other and Endor's megafauna, and a warrior culture, to justify their weapons design (especially the siege weapons...). They should be a mixture of tribal culture and Roman-age engineering, the latter fueled by an arms race with other tribes.

4) Have their first reaction to aliens be to determine if they're food or foe, unless somehow 'impressed' with technology so advanced it seems magic and beneign (a blaster is not beneign).

Yeah, the thing that gets me mostly is the sloppy weapons (seriously, google stone age weapons) and the ungainly movements of the Ewoks.

They just don't look believable. Or at least they don't make a believable portrayal of a savage bear like species that could defeat imperial stormtroopers in hand to hand combat.

I think it's the combination of the ungainly movements of people with dwarfism and the ineffective looking weapons that makes it so implausable.

I think he'd have been better off using kids in the outfits (skinnier outfits too, due to the body structure of older child vs person with dwarfism) and giving them somewhat more realistic looking weapons, but even then I'd still have to go with focusing more on the actions of the rebel commandos.

Alas, I'm very certain that by this time Lucas was very much invested in the "it's for kids" approach (or rather "it needs to sell toys").

He did use some kids, but they were also dwarfs (Warwick Davis playing Wicket W. Warwick for example), but the problems and legalities of kids on set makes that not feasible depending on where you are filming. In the US kids aren't allowed to work 40+ hours a week for movies, which is why most high schoolers are actually portrayed by people in their 20s. Also, most dwarves aren't just scaled down adults. Their limbs tend to be far shorter relative to their heads or torsos and then you add a bulky costume on top of that... have fun moving around, but it got the job done in terms of getting scenes shot.

So, we're back to what I originally pointed out to you... it's a movie.. they have to work within their limits (time, budget, etc...), so not everything will meet everyone's expectations of "realism" for the shoot. Props are made to look good enough, especially if they don't have to actually be used. Pre-CGI characters have to work with human actors for limits of time and budget, which is why Star Wars love the "humans with bumps on their heads" for the various species. The story also has limits on how much they can really show you. In the case of a battle or a war, the director doesn't have 3 days worth of play time to show you the really big picture of a moving battle, so, we get highlights.

They've got traps, flying contraptions, siege weapons, etc... I don't care how good your armor is, unless it is powered armor with its own exoskeleton, getting hit by rocks are still going to unbalance you, even if they don't break through the armor. Getting hit in the head is still going to ring some bells depending on the impact distribution, etc... The armor has weak points, as any armor has to have to allow joints to flex and move.

I think it's the combination of the ungainly movements of people with dwarfism and the ineffective looking weapons that makes it so implausable.

I think he'd have been better off using kids in the outfits (skinnier outfits too, due to the body structure of older child vs person with dwarfism) and giving them somewhat more realistic looking weapons, but even then I'd still have to go with focusing more on the actions of the rebel commandos.

Alas, I'm very certain that by this time Lucas was very much invested in the "it's for kids" approach (or rather "it needs to sell toys").

He did use some kids, but they were also dwarfs (Warwick Davis playing Wicket W. Warwick for example), but the problems and legalities of kids on set makes that not feasible depending on where you are filming. In the US kids aren't allowed to work 40+ hours a week for movies, which is why most high schoolers are actually portrayed by people in their 20s. Also, most dwarves aren't just scaled down adults. Their limbs tend to be far shorter relative to their heads or torsos and then you add a bulky costume on top of that... have fun moving around, but it got the job done in terms of getting scenes shot.

So, we're back to what I originally pointed out to you... it's a movie.. they have to work within their limits (time, budget, etc...), so not everything will meet everyone's expectations of "realism" for the shoot. Props are made to look good enough, especially if they don't have to actually be used. Pre-CGI characters have to work with human actors for limits of time and budget, which is why Star Wars love the "humans with bumps on their heads" for the various species. The story also has limits on how much they can really show you. In the case of a battle or a war, the director doesn't have 3 days worth of play time to show you the really big picture of a moving battle, so, we get highlights.

They've got traps, flying contraptions, siege weapons, etc... I don't care how good your armor is, unless it is powered armor with its own exoskeleton, getting hit by rocks are still going to unbalance you, even if they don't break through the armor. Getting hit in the head is still going to ring some bells depending on the impact distribution, etc... The armor has weak points, as any armor has to have to allow joints to flex and move.

Well, it just boils down to I (and others) just don't find it believable.

So, evidently, he failed at convincing parts of the audience that it was "real", like a movie should (suspension of disbelief and all that).

The fact that others are arguing against that, is the problem here.

The OP asked why people have a problem with the Ewoks.

We answered.

And then people questioned our reasons. And that started the discussion.

And the discussion will never end since one part is saying that the acting, effects and props are simply not convincing, while the other side is basically saying "it's a movie, what did you expect".

The two views will most likely never reconcile.

But at least the OP understood why some of us have a problem with the Ewoks (and without having to change his mind on the subject, which is a big credit to the OP)

Yeah, the thing that gets me mostly is the sloppy weapons (seriously, google stone age weapons) and the ungainly movements of the Ewoks.

They just don't look believable. Or at least they don't make a believable portrayal of a savage bear like species that could defeat imperial stormtroopers in hand to hand combat.

Like I pointed out earlier, though, it wasn't " hand to hand combat." It was sneaky, underhanded fighting. They hit below the belt. It was like a combo Zergling/Lurker rush (for the Star Craft players among us). They engaged the stormtroopers only when they had the advantage of dense foliage and superior numbers, and otherwise ran for their lives.

In the instances where it's one stormtrooper vs. one Ewok (I can think of one short scene in particular), the stormtrooper is able to simply pick the Ewok up and throw him. But when the Ewoks jump group-tackle the troopers from their hiding places, that's when they are able to bring them down.

The other reason people have problems with Ewoks is their eyes, they just stare at you. Those big soulless eyes, I surprised there isn't a phobia listed like fear of clowns (Coulrophobia)

The other reason people have problems with Ewoks is their eyes, they just stare at you. Those big soulless eyes, I surprised there isn't a phobia listed like fear of clowns (Coulrophobia)

George "fixed" that now... they blink.

So now they have big soulless eyes... that blink.

Actually, thinking about that "Ewok appreciation graph" thingy from How I met your mother, I have to say that not even as a kid did I like the Ewoks.
Neither did any of my friends.
And we were around 7 when the movie came out, so we certainly weren't too old.

I remember that we usually tried to either trade away the ewok figures we got from our parents, or we used them in (frankly, rather hideous) experiments usually involving fireworks or an upside-down bicycle with the rear wheel spinning really really fast.
(that's how poor poor Crix Madine lost his face by my hand... for some reason I really really didn't like him when I was a kid)

So a group of 7 year olds disliked the Ewoks?

And I am trolling?

Edit: Smiley added to show the implied humor of my remark and avoid backlash.

This seems like the appropriate place to inform you all...

I will henceforth always be referring to Episode VI as "The Sword Wizard Is Back." At least until I forget or it gets too confusing.

Ahem. Carry on!

Eh, no. Never asked for "proof whether or not they defeated Stormtroopers".

I've seen the movie, so I know they did.

What I've been saying all this time is that it's incredulous to me that they did.

It wasn't convincing.

It was Ed Woods level of suspension of disbelief for me and many others.

Eh, this is a universe were laser beam swords extend out 3 feet and stop, spaceships movie and bank like WWII Zeros, guns shoot death rays that move much slower than the speed of light, every planet has a single biome and Kung Fu Monks lift rocks with the power of their mind.

Reality has no place here. Happy, fairy tale endings, on the other hand, do!

Eh, no. Never asked for "proof whether or not they defeated Stormtroopers".

I've seen the movie, so I know they did.

What I've been saying all this time is that it's incredulous to me that they did.

It wasn't convincing.

It was Ed Woods level of suspension of disbelief for me and many others.

Eh, this is a universe were laser beam swords extend out 3 feet and stop, spaceships movie and bank like WWII Zeros, guns shoot death rays that move much slower than the speed of light, every planet has a single biome and Kung Fu Monks lift rocks with the power of their mind.

Reality has no place here. Happy, fairy tale endings, on the other hand, do!

See, that's the Ed Woods school of reasoning when it comes to suspension of disbelief.

Just because there are laser beam swords, space ships moving as if they were planes and wizard powers, doesn't mean that you can do just whatever you want.

Those things work within a framework of the movies setting.

There's an explanation for why Luke can lift things with his mind.

And the spaceships and laser beam swords are handwavium technologies.

You still can't have han solo jump across a 2000 foot gorge on a kids bicycle, because that would make no sense.

You still can't let the spaceships just burrow under ground as if they were Graboids.

And you can't have a janitor beat the entire imperial army with nothing but a mop and a bucket.

Because it doesn't make sense within the worlds setting.

And having primitive stone-age creatures that have shown no evidence of being stronger (or even as strong as) the average human beating heavily armed and armored elite soldiers with nothing but a few sticks and stones, because that diminishes the struggle of the rest of the rebellion and also, just isn't very credible.

If the best legion of the imperial army gets beaten by such a primitive tribe of halflings with that much ease, then how could they ever control a semi-advanced world, let alone really advanced worlds where high-tech weaponry and other tehnology is readily available.

The other post is here , which you quoted in reply, but you only responded to the first part. My bad for putting together a multi-point post. I'm getting better But still, would like to get your take on this specifically:

My contention is that too much is being made out of the Ewoks' defeat of the stormtroopers. It seems to be first being blown out of proportion, and then dismissed as unbelievable.

It was what it was, obviously (and I understand some people enjoy the cinema of it while others don't), and we do see some bludgeoning beatdowns going on, but it's pretty much only when the Ewoks are literally mobbing the troopers. Even if they only weigh around 100 lbs, that's 300 pounds of tackling weight and 6 arms to contend with. Is it really that incredible that the stormtroopers could be taken down by a huge group of stealthy, short, strong, furry aliens who obviously outnumber them?

Just because there are laser beam swords, space ships moving as if they were planes and wizard powers, doesn't mean that you can do just whatever you want.

I am absolutely into that philosophy.

That being said...

primitive stone-age creatures that have shown no evidence of being stronger (or even as strong as) the average human beating heavily armed and armored elite soldiers with nothing but a few sticks and stones

Has been set in place in this reality by the same source as "laser beam swords, space ships moving as if they were planes and wizard powers" and is, arguably, just as valid as the rest of it...

And maybe THAT is what alienated a lot of people. To them, ewoks are that last undesirable bit of candy in the otherwise tasty Whitman's Sampler.

We have not used ewoks in our games, yet... but if we did... We would probably need to remember that despite the limits of the costumes and effects, the story has them not only as canonically VERY capable warriors but also inclined to EAT HUMANOIDS.

Their cinematic presentation may have been overly cutesy... but their in-universe reality is actually a bit terrifying.

Like these little guys: