Actually, they don't use clubs. By their cut and design, the ewok melee weapons that aren't spears fall under the warhammer category, used to transfer as much force as possible on a single, small, square of circular, or spiked, focal point. And believe me, there are worlds between getting hit by a bat or a beer bottle (large, broad impact means the force of the blow gets spread around quite a bit) and a hammer (focal impact means higher penetration, more force upon a small zone. Where a club may concuss you, a hammer will outright cave in your skull). In ye olden times, hammers and their ilk were the weapon of choice vs. enemies in heavy armour for pretty much that reason. Even if they didn't go through the material, they'd dent it, deform it and transfer enough force beneath it to cause serious to lethal injuries.

Actually, they don't use clubs. By their cut and design, the ewok melee weapons that aren't spears fall under the warhammer category, used to transfer as much force as possible on a single, small, square of circular, or spiked, focal point. And believe me, there are worlds between getting hit by a bat or a beer bottle (large, broad impact means the force of the blow gets spread around quite a bit) and a hammer (focal impact means higher penetration, more force upon a small zone. Where a club may concuss you, a hammer will outright cave in your skull). In ye olden times, hammers and their ilk were the weapon of choice vs. enemies in heavy armour for pretty much that reason. Even if they didn't go through the material, they'd dent it, deform it and transfer enough force beneath it to cause serious to lethal injuries.

I remember reading somewhere that in the late Middle Ages there were guys in heavy armor that got whacked with swords.

The swords never broke the armor but the guys wearing it died, because of impact damage.

I bet most of the weren't killed by people half their size

It happens...

Sure, in fiction.

I've yet to hear about a "little person" taking on a fully armored opponent in combat and succeeding. (And trust me, someone would have written that event down)

Actually, they don't use clubs. By their cut and design, the ewok melee weapons that aren't spears fall under the warhammer category, used to transfer as much force as possible on a single, small, square of circular, or spiked, focal point. And believe me, there are worlds between getting hit by a bat or a beer bottle (large, broad impact means the force of the blow gets spread around quite a bit) and a hammer (focal impact means higher penetration, more force upon a small zone. Where a club may concuss you, a hammer will outright cave in your skull). In ye olden times, hammers and their ilk were the weapon of choice vs. enemies in heavy armour for pretty much that reason. Even if they didn't go through the material, they'd dent it, deform it and transfer enough force beneath it to cause serious to lethal injuries.

Actually, they don't use clubs. By their cut and design, the ewok melee weapons that aren't spears fall under the warhammer category, used to transfer as much force as possible on a single, small, square of circular, or spiked, focal point. And believe me, there are worlds between getting hit by a bat or a beer bottle (large, broad impact means the force of the blow gets spread around quite a bit) and a hammer (focal impact means higher penetration, more force upon a small zone. Where a club may concuss you, a hammer will outright cave in your skull). In ye olden times, hammers and their ilk were the weapon of choice vs. enemies in heavy armour for pretty much that reason. Even if they didn't go through the material, they'd dent it, deform it and transfer enough force beneath it to cause serious to lethal injuries.

I remember reading somewhere that in the late Middle Ages there were guys in heavy armor that got whacked with swords.

The swords never broke the armor but the guys wearing it died, because of impact damage.

I bet most of the weren't killed by people half their size

Do you have a problem with cavemen taking down mastadons with spears? What about Inuit dealing with polar bears? Each of those examples is someone less than half the size of their target, and well under half the mass, yet succeeding time and time again.

Completely different things.

You are height obsessed, dude...

You are height obsessed, dude...

Not really.

I've just not seen any evidence that the Ewoks were strong enough to do any major damage with those rock-clubs/axes to stormtroopers in armour.

How about the fact that they did? I figure that is all the proof you need...

Well, here's a bantamweight boxer who beat a grown man bloody on German television. I'd gauge ewoks around 40ish kg/100 lbs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regina_Halmich

Then there's this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States#Fatalities_reported_in_2015

What size is a pit bull? Let's see...

How about the fact that they did? I figure that is all the proof you need...

Eh, well I disagree.

Just because I see something in a film, doesn't mean I believe it.

Ewoks beating the stormtroopers simply isn't believable to me. (and many others)

Well, here's a bantamweight boxer who beat a grown man bloody on German television. I'd gauge ewoks around 40ish kg/100 lbs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regina_Halmich

Then there's this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States#Fatalities_reported_in_2015

What size is a pit bull? Let's see...

Height : 50 cm (Adult)

Mass : 16 – 30 kg (Adult, Male)

And last but not least, let's go for something ewok-sized:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2169089/Andrew-Oberle-Chimp-attack-student-badly-mauled-parents-left-traumatised.html

Yeah, still not the same thing.

There are plenty of women the size and weight of that bantamweight boxer that couldn't hurt you if they tried.

There's also plenty of animals the size of a pitbull that you wouldn't consider even slightly dangerous to your health.

And a chimp is not the same as an Ewok.

Who's the one fixated on size here, anyway?

I'm just saying that the look of the ewoks and their weaponry simply isn't convincing when it comes to their ability of beating the empire in a fight.

Some of you believe they are believable, and that's fine, but some of us don't.

And this thread called into question why we don't and I've explained why I don't.

Do you have a problem with cavemen taking down mastadons with spears? What about Inuit dealing with polar bears? Each of those examples is someone less than half the size of their target, and well under half the mass, yet succeeding time and time again.

I seem to remember that cavemen used spears and fire to drive large prey into pits or areas where they could pound it with huge rocks. Not sure how the Inuit hunted polar bears without artillery.

Regardless, neither the mastadons of old or the polar bears of today used rifles.

One word... Napoleon.

Well, that is actually a myth based om a caricature, he was actually above average.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kBir4Hn9Mw

Still, I have no idea why how tall an ewok is matters so much! There are lots of stories and examples where humans beat taller races, species or other bigger humans.

What about dwarfs and hobbits, David and Goliath?

How about the fact that they did? I figure that is all the proof you need...

Eh, well I disagree.

So, let me get this straight... You ask for proof of whether or not they defeated Storm troopers I tell you the movie shows you and you deem that irrelevant and non-persuasive?

Okay... I see why you wanted to drop it earlier.

The real problem isn't that those elite storm troopers got beat by ewoks. The problem is that before getting beat by ewoks those stormtroopers fought in multiple wars against enemies that were bigger,much much better equipped and with better understanding of modern warfare than the ewoks and won. they must have, otherwise the empire would have went down long before

The same could be said for the US army when they got their ass handed to them in Vietnam...

The real problem isn't that those elite storm troopers got beat by ewoks. The problem is that before getting beat by ewoks those stormtroopers fought in multiple wars against enemies that were bigger,much much better equipped and with better understanding of modern warfare than the ewoks and won. they must have, otherwise the empire would have went down long before

It`s a small battle with a few stormtroopers out of their element and underestimating an (unknown?) enemy that clearly are good hunters and build superior traps.

Finland beat Russia, a much(much!) bigger country with better , more advanced equipment and a lot more warfare experience, the Vietcong beat the americans. There are lots of earlier examples in history too, as mentioned earlier in this thread.

And this is science FANTASY!... The Ewoks was on their home turf and how do you know these canibalistic, bloodthirsty little hunters weren`t used to fighting huge monsters? Did you see those traps?

Edit: And the Ewoks didn`t beat the stormtroopers, they just helped out a little...

The real problem isn't that those elite storm troopers got beat by ewoks. The problem is that before getting beat by ewoks those stormtroopers fought in multiple wars against enemies that were bigger,much much better equipped and with better understanding of modern warfare than the ewoks and won. they must have, otherwise the empire would have went down long before

It`s a small battle with a few stormtroopers out of their element and underestimating an (unknown?) enemy that clearly are good hunters and build superior traps.

Finland beat Russia, a much(much!) bigger country with better , more advanced equipment and a lot more warfare experience, the Vietcong beat the americans. There are lots of earlier examples in history too, as mentioned earlier in this thread.

And this is science FANTASY!... The Ewoks was on their home turf and how do you know these canibalistic, bloodthirsty little hunters weren`t used to fighting huge monsters? Did you see those traps?

About Finland Russia- Finland lost. The war also took place after Stalin had all experienced generals killed so they wouldn't be a threat to his power

About USA-Vietnam: USA won every single battle but was forced to end the war by public opinion

In both of these examples the difference between the two sides was minor compared to the one on Endor.

It all makes both the Empire and the Rebellion look like clueless retards who had no idea what they were doing.

The real problem isn't that those elite storm troopers got beat by ewoks. The problem is that before getting beat by ewoks those stormtroopers fought in multiple wars against enemies that were bigger,much much better equipped and with better understanding of modern warfare than the ewoks and won. they must have, otherwise the empire would have went down long before

It`s a small battle with a few stormtroopers out of their element and underestimating an (unknown?) enemy that clearly are good hunters and build superior traps.

Finland beat Russia, a much(much!) bigger country with better , more advanced equipment and a lot more warfare experience, the Vietcong beat the americans. There are lots of earlier examples in history too, as mentioned earlier in this thread.

And this is science FANTASY!... The Ewoks was on their home turf and how do you know these canibalistic, bloodthirsty little hunters weren`t used to fighting huge monsters? Did you see those traps?

About Finland Russia- Finland lost. The war also took place after Stalin had all experienced generals killed so they wouldn't be a threat to his power

About USA-Vietnam: USA won every single battle but was forced to end the war by public opinion

In both of these examples the difference between the two sides was minor compared to the one on Endor.

It all makes both the Empire and the Rebellion look like clueless retards who had no idea what they were doing.

Finland won, Russia lost. The Americans lost to the Vietcong....

The real problem isn't that those elite storm troopers got beat by ewoks. The problem is that before getting beat by ewoks those stormtroopers fought in multiple wars against enemies that were bigger,much much better equipped and with better understanding of modern warfare than the ewoks and won. they must have, otherwise the empire would have went down long before

It`s a small battle with a few stormtroopers out of their element and underestimating an (unknown?) enemy that clearly are good hunters and build superior traps.

Finland beat Russia, a much(much!) bigger country with better , more advanced equipment and a lot more warfare experience, the Vietcong beat the americans. There are lots of earlier examples in history too, as mentioned earlier in this thread.

And this is science FANTASY!... The Ewoks was on their home turf and how do you know these canibalistic, bloodthirsty little hunters weren`t used to fighting huge monsters? Did you see those traps?

About Finland Russia- Finland lost. The war also took place after Stalin had all experienced generals killed so they wouldn't be a threat to his power

About USA-Vietnam: USA won every single battle but was forced to end the war by public opinion

In both of these examples the difference between the two sides was minor compared to the one on Endor.

It all makes both the Empire and the Rebellion look like clueless retards who had no idea what they were doing.

Finland won, Russia lost. The Americans lost to the Vietcong....

Ok, i'll stop bothering with you.

Finland won, Russia lost. The Americans lost to the Vietcong....

Ok, i'll stop bothering with you.

I guess all my history teacher, QI, the BBC and the History Channel taught me was wrong. And here I was thinking that Russia lost more than they gained in the Winter War, with "today we gained only enogh ground to burry our dead" and that. And I thought Viet Cong were superior because of the tunnel systems, tactics, jungle guerilla warfare and believing more in what they fought for and what they protected than what the american soldiers did.

Thanks for clearing it all up for me. I`ll trust Hollywood more from now on, seeing they make the best war documentaries...

A better comparison than these at time rather subjectively interpreted conflicts would be the Battle of Teuteburg Forest.

How about the fact that they did? I figure that is all the proof you need...

Eh, well I disagree.

So, let me get this straight... You ask for proof of whether or not they defeated Storm troopers I tell you the movie shows you and you deem that irrelevant and non-persuasive?

Okay... I see why you wanted to drop it earlier.

Eh, no. Never asked for "proof whether or not they defeated Stormtroopers".

I've seen the movie, so I know they did.

What I've been saying all this time is that it's incredulous to me that they did.

It wasn't convincing.

It was Ed Woods level of suspension of disbelief for me and many others.

Finland won, Russia lost. The Americans lost to the Vietcong....

Ok, i'll stop bothering with you.

I guess all my history teacher, QI, the BBC and the History Channel taught me was wrong. And here I was thinking that Russia lost more than they gained in the Winter War, with "today we gained only enogh ground to burry our dead" and that. And I thought Viet Cong were superior because of the tunnel systems, tactics, jungle guerilla warfare and believing more in what they fought for and what they protected than what the american soldiers did.

Thanks for clearing it all up for me. I`ll trust Hollywood more from now on, seeing they make the best war documentaries...

Well, according to my finnish relatives, they pretty much lost.

But I'm sure your history teacher, QI, the BBC and the History Channel (ALIENS DID IT!) know better than the population of the country in question.

Let's put it this way; Finland (the country) was smaller after the Winter War.

Did the russians succeed in conquering the country?

No.

Did the Finns dirve them off?

No.

They pretty much fought to a stalemate and the Finns were forced to accept a pretty humiliating peace agreement.

so no, the Finns didn't "win" the winter war.

Much like the Soviets didn't "lose" WW2 just becaus they had higher casualties than the germans.

I've just not seen any evidence that the Ewoks were strong enough to do any major damage with those rock-clubs/axes to stormtroopers in armour.

How about the fact that they did? I figure that is all the proof you need...

Eh, no. Never asked for "proof whether or not they defeated Stormtroopers.

I am officialy lost.

Let's put it this way; Finland (the country) was smaller after the Winter War.

Did the russians succeed in conquering the country?

No.

Did the Finns dirve them off?

No.

Seems like the exact example you were looking for to me.

I've just not seen any evidence that the Ewoks were strong enough to do any major damage with those rock-clubs/axes to stormtroopers in armour.

How about the fact that they did? I figure that is all the proof you need...

Eh, no. Never asked for "proof whether or not they defeated Stormtroopers.

I am officialy lost.

I suggest you go back to the start of the thread and read from there then, as this argument has veered off in lots of different directions, oftentimes just to derail it from the original topic in an attemt to win arguments.

Let's put it this way; Finland (the country) was smaller after the Winter War.

Did the russians succeed in conquering the country?

No.

Did the Finns dirve them off?

No.

No, but a tiny army that had nowhere near as much fighting power as its attacker managed to keep them off for months and they were never able to take the entire country... All the while not aided by the rebellion whose only objective it was to attack a shield generator and that killed of their Emperor and destroyed their space station.

Seems like the exact example you were looking for to me.

The Soviets won... but it was a Pyrrhic victory

Of course, for your comparison to work, the Ewoks would have to not only be armed with blasters and blaster pistols, but they'd also have to have speeders and maby even light walkers of their own.

The Finns didn't fight off the Soviets with nothing but sticks and stones, my friend.

EDIT: In fact, I'm getting so tired of people comparing a bunch of furry teddybears fighting off a high-tech military force using nothing but sticks and stones to modern-day conflicts where one side was slightly inferior to the other, but both sides having access to pretty much the same technology, that I'm just going to use this every time someone brings it up:

For consideration: the Empire most likely did not completely disintegrate as a result of the Ewoks killing some stormtroopers. That is, the Ewoks did not defeat the Empire.

They simply assisted the Rebels by providing a distraction. Watching the Battle of Endor, it was mainly Chewbacca that actually ended up routing the Imperial forces on the Forest Moon by capturing that AT-ST.

And anyway, look at how many Ewoks there were compared to the stormtroopers! That is why they were able to overcome them initially: they hid in the trees, and then attacked suddenly and en-masse, using their advantage of numbers and stealth. Most of the times, the stormtroopers simply couldn't get a shot off because the Ewoks weren't fighting fair. Sneaking up and attacking the stormies 3 to 1 was their MO, and it worked long enough to allow the heroes of the Rebellion to do their thing.

But had the Ewoks been attacking alone, they would have been destroyed, because they couldn't deal with those AT-STs. The Empire would have recovered from the initial surprise and pressed the assault into the forest, blowing stuff up indiscriminately. Or the Death Star would have just blown up the moon.

When I say "the Ewoks defeated the Empire", I thought it was implied that I didn't mean that the Ewoks completely dismantled the Imperial warmachine across the galaxy and freed all the planets, but instead that they beat this legion that was on the moon at the time.

I didn't think I had to explain that.

I've just not seen any evidence that the Ewoks were strong enough to do any major damage with those rock-clubs/axes to stormtroopers in armour.

How about the fact that they did? I figure that is all the proof you need...

Eh, no. Never asked for "proof whether or not they defeated Stormtroopers.

I am officialy lost.

I suggest you go back to the start of the thread and read from there then, as this argument has veered off in lots of different directions, oftentimes just to derail it from the original topic in an attemt to win arguments.

Let's put it this way; Finland (the country) was smaller after the Winter War.

Did the russians succeed in conquering the country?

No.

Did the Finns dirve them off?

No.

No, but a tiny army that had nowhere near as much fighting power as its attacker managed to keep them off for months and they were never able to take the entire country... All the while not aided by the rebellion whose only objective it was to attack a shield generator and that killed of their Emperor and destroyed their space station.

Seems like the exact example you were looking for to me.

The Soviets won... but it was a Pyrrhic victory

Of course, for your comparison to work, the Ewoks would have to not only be armed with blasters and blaster pistols, but they'd also have to have speeders and maby even light walkers of their own.

The Finns didn't fight off the Soviets with nothing but sticks and stones, my friend.

EDIT: In fact, I'm getting so tired of people comparing a bunch of furry teddybears fighting off a high-tech military force using nothing but sticks and stones to modern-day conflicts where one side was slightly inferior to the other, but both sides having access to pretty much the same technology, that I'm just going to use this every time someone brings it up:

You can use it all you want, it only shows me you are blind to your own 'reasoning' in this topic, your own hyperbole (as illustrated by awayptyrwpn in the previous post) and the fact that you are taking a discussion about aliens, that you dislike, in a movie way too seriously.

When I say "the Ewoks defeated the Empire", I thought it was implied that I didn't mean that the Ewoks completely dismantled the Imperial warmachine across the galaxy and freed all the planets, but instead that they beat this legion that was on the moon at the time.

I didn't think I had to explain that.

I once got attacked by a group of 5 or 6 14 year olds... I didn't win. Eventhough I was 25 and athletic.