The traps are a tricky bit. I can buy the rope for the speeder scouts. That's nasty, and it'll work on a slow moving horseback rider as much as on someone on a motorcycle (don't try this at home, kids). I can even buy the catapult and the glider dropping down rocks on people as well. As anyone knows, after a certain height, it doesn't matter much what you're wearing in terms of head protection- your skull goes splat.

The one thing that really, really irks me is the set of logs and the AT-ST. That's the only one where I feel they jumped the shark entirely. But that's one moment in a demonstration of three foot tall people deploying what is, as is established in the movie, wookie grade strength. I mean, think about it: They effortlessly carry humanoids twice their size, they can hang on to speeders at maximum velocity on raw forearm power. Ewoks are crazy strong. The blunt trauma in those stone hammers should be enough to cause severe organ damage, wether it penetrates futurepast space armour or not.

The logsmash was established to attack Gorax, who are on average AT-ST sized,and were thus placed in locations were these giants would walk through the woods. It is only reasonable to assume that the walkers would chose the same path.

And the scouts and patroling stormtroopers/AT-ST's were just blind, I guess... I mean the traps were soooooooooo well hidden in the movies...

And why would they care about those innocent teddybear culture animal traps?...

We(all of us) might be overthinking this war documentary...

The point (that you seem to be willfully missing repeatedly) is that it's simply not believable.

Like I said, there's suspension of disbelief, and then there's Ed Woods levels of suspension of disbelief... and the Ewoks are definately at the Ed Wood end of the scale.

The logsmash was established to attack Gorax, who are on average AT-ST sized,and were thus placed in locations were these giants would walk through the woods. It is only reasonable to assume that the walkers would chose the same path.

There is no Gorax... haven't you heard? The EU is scrapped and all that is just legends now

(Or should I start going through the stormtrooper armours protection as detailed in the EU?)

The traps are a tricky bit. I can buy the rope for the speeder scouts. That's nasty, and it'll work on a slow moving horseback rider as much as on someone on a motorcycle (don't try this at home, kids). I can even buy the catapult and the glider dropping down rocks on people as well. As anyone knows, after a certain height, it doesn't matter much what you're wearing in terms of head protection- your skull goes splat.

The one thing that really, really irks me is the set of logs and the AT-ST. That's the only one where I feel they jumped the shark entirely. But that's one moment in a demonstration of three foot tall people deploying what is, as is established in the movie, wookie grade strength. I mean, think about it: They effortlessly carry humanoids twice their size, they can hang on to speeders at maximum velocity on raw forearm power. Ewoks are crazy strong. The blunt trauma in those stone hammers should be enough to cause severe organ damage, wether it penetrates futurepast space armour or not.

Didn`t they test the log smash in mythbusters with an armored car or something and found out it could work?... And even if it didn`t in the real world...

And about the strength, do one effortlessly ever carry a human alone? And is it hard to imagine that one of them can hold on to the speeder with only its own little bodyweight hanging from it?

The traps are a tricky bit. I can buy the rope for the speeder scouts. That's nasty, and it'll work on a slow moving horseback rider as much as on someone on a motorcycle (don't try this at home, kids). I can even buy the catapult and the glider dropping down rocks on people as well. As anyone knows, after a certain height, it doesn't matter much what you're wearing in terms of head protection- your skull goes splat.

The one thing that really, really irks me is the set of logs and the AT-ST. That's the only one where I feel they jumped the shark entirely. But that's one moment in a demonstration of three foot tall people deploying what is, as is established in the movie, wookie grade strength. I mean, think about it: They effortlessly carry humanoids twice their size, they can hang on to speeders at maximum velocity on raw forearm power. Ewoks are crazy strong. The blunt trauma in those stone hammers should be enough to cause severe organ damage, wether it penetrates futurepast space armour or not.

Didn`t they test the log smash in mythbusters with an armored car or something and found out it could work?... And even if it didn`t in the real world...

And about the strength, do one effortlessly ever carry a human alone? And is it hard to imagine that one of them can hold on to the speeder with only its own little bodyweight hanging from it?

They did test it, yes.

And they had heavy machinery to pull those logs up there. But hitting a moving target? Unlikely (and the logs in their test were nowhere near as far apart as the ones in the movie)

As for the strength, they were at least two ewoks per human carried. Luke and Han were tied to long poles that were then carried on the shoulder of at least 2 ewoks (maby more, but I can't find a decent picture).

That doesn't sound like extraordinarily strong to me.

The point (that you seem to be willfully missing repeatedly) is that it's simply not believable.

Like I said, there's suspension of disbelief, and then there's Ed Woods levels of suspension of disbelief... and the Ewoks are definately at the Ed Wood end of the scale.

I have said time and again that I see your point and that I am willing to agree "from a certain point of view". I am only arguing that I think it works within the context and logic of the genre and the fictional universe at hand. As long as they are not breaking the established rules within their own universe and story, it is "realistic" in the academic story-sense of the word. What goes in the real world has no merit and doesn`t matter in the universe of the story. I have a bachelors degree in animation and storytelling was a big part of that.

I can accept that you and many people have a different sense of suspension of disbelief, but this is far, far from Ed Wood and "Order 66 From Outer Space"(...)

I think it sounds like I`m more polarized about this than I really am, but I can see both sides of the arguement and I think this is a fun discussion and like to see it from different angles. Story telling is a fascinating subject. Peace.

They did test it, yes.

And they had heavy machinery to pull those logs up there. But hitting a moving target? Unlikely (and the logs in their test were nowhere near as far apart as the ones in the movie)

Come one, man! How can you watch any movie at all! That`s just crazy nitpicking, especially for sci-fi or any action movie at all realy!.... Det går bra, jeg vet du er svensk og ikke vet bedre;) er det lugnt?.. Btw. love Kopps!

But seriously, to watch Star Wars or any movie at all you have to be able to accept a few things and don`t have everything explained to you! I`m speaking general now, not directly to you!

I don`t need to see a plan of Cloud City and how it works or get the science of how Han Solo and the gang can survive in the vacuum of space, walking inside asteroid with nothing but a breathing mask! So I don`t need that much imagination to believe the ewoks build crazy superior and advanced traps and have been for years and years, centuries or eons even ...It`s not like they expect us to believe mere mortal humans built the pyramids!... Wait, what, they do? Come on!

The logsmash was established to attack Gorax, who are on average AT-ST sized,and were thus placed in locations were these giants would walk through the woods. It is only reasonable to assume that the walkers would chose the same path.

There is no Gorax... haven't you heard? The EU is scrapped and all that is just legends now

(Or should I start going through the stormtrooper armours protection as detailed in the EU?)

I am not refering to EU. I am refering to sketches made by Ralph McQuarrie made for the movie that were the basis for them, as well as for the traps being where they are.

In fact I had a party scout the forest moon and fight of a group of Gorax with pull strings, log smashes and log avalanches when helping the local technology obsessed Ewoks to find a cache of Imperial machinery. It was a lot of fun.

As for the strength, they were at least two ewoks per human carried. Luke and Han were tied to long poles that were then carried on the shoulder of at least 2 ewoks (maby more, but I can't find a decent picture).

That doesn't sound like extraordinarily strong to me.

What I described earlier isn't more than an adult human can do with a stone hammer. Blunt weapons don't cut, they translate force past protective layers and rupture organs underneat. When someone with the strength of even a teenager (let alone an adult) is hitting you on the head with a hammer with all his might, it doesn't matter if you're wearing a helmet or not. You'll go down after a couple of blows, tops. The real telltale moment is the speeder chase, however. Hanging on to something going at 300+ kph with no other hold than your hands while in a wind tunnel implies some fairly insane musculature for a kid-sized creature.

The ewoks vs. Stormtrooper melee is plausible to me, because I know what being hit by blunt traumaweapons does to a body, even in armour. I can see why they're not plausible to someone without my background knowledge in historical weapons. From a filmmaking PoV, it's a bit out there. We would have needed a few more blatant hercules moments for the ewoks to make this entire discussion unnecessary. That is something one could chalk up to the film as a negative point. You need to clearly establish the little beasties are strong, and not require knowledge of weapons the filmmakers themselves probably didn't have nor the audience (the movies predate the historical medieveal reenactment boom over here in Europe or practical experiments a la Junkelman with medieval weaponry, f.ex..).

I have said time and again that I see your point and that I am willing to agree "from a certain point of view". I am only arguing that I think it works within the context and logic of the genre and the fictional universe at hand.

I'd say it doesn't *at all*...because if I admitted that, then I wouldn't like the genre and fictional universe nearly as much I have no problems with Gungans...at least they could make a convincing show of force, keeping all the slapstick contained to one character. But all Ewoks are *all* slapstick, 99% of the time. They are "in-credible" in the truest sense of the word. The first shot from Death Star 2 should have taken out Endor, not the Rebel cruiser.

As a movie, E6 is practically schizophrenic...we have high emotional drama and character development in one scene, then we switch over to medium drama high octane action in star fighters...all good so far...and then we descend to stupid roly-poly waddling bears tossing pebbles and turning a "legion of best troops" into a mockery of themselves. I'm not sure that's what Luke meant when he told Palpatine "your overconfidence is your weakness"... I'm pretty sure everyone in the SW universe would have taken that legion seriously, but as the audience we.just.can't.do.it. It yanks me right out of my immersion. Here I am, an adult among other adults, and we all know we're watching a stupid kiddie show. Painful. Boring. Then we bounce back to high drama and...gosh, it takes a bit to just get back into the mood.

The only thing positive I can say around the Ewoks is the scenes are well shot and choreographed. Concepts were stupid, but well executed.

Hanging on to something going at 300+ kph with no other hold than your hands while in a wind tunnel implies some fairly insane musculature for a kid-sized creature.

I keep seeing everybody talking about this Tom Cruise scene from the new MI, but it just isn't that exciting to me.

I agree in that in tone, the ewok segments are off. There are bits and pieces shining through the cracks that would make them work, had the filmmakers focused on them rather than cute. The rebels alligning themselves with flesheating little monsters could have presented an interesting parallel to the scene going on in the Death Star's throne room. I found ep. 6 interesting to watch, because you can actually see two conflicting visions in terms of tone, and both (!) made it into the movie. Cue the teddy melee, which is cute (unless you know those guys are getting skull fractures under their helmets and all sorts of ick...) and "kid-friendly", then the shot of the same cute little thing being brutally blasted. I really see two different filmmakers and creative views at work here. One who wanted an adorable, carebear style marketing tool, and the other who wanted creepy, evil little savages.

As far as the ewoks themselves go, I'll stick with the savage bit. It's a more consistent PoV with the overall plot in ep. 6, I feel, and it makes a better story for how to handle them in an RPG.

I agree in that in tone, the ewok segments are off. There are bits and pieces shining through the cracks that would make them work, had the filmmakers focused on them rather than cute. The rebels alligning themselves with flesheating little monsters could have presented an interesting parallel to the scene going on in the Death Star's throne room. I found ep. 6 interesting to watch, because you can actually see two conflicting visions in terms of tone, and both (!) made it into the movie. Cue the teddy melee, which is cute (unless you know those guys are getting skull fractures under their helmets and all sorts of ick...) and "kid-friendly", then the shot of the same cute little thing being brutally blasted. I really see two different filmmakers and creative views at work here. One who wanted an adorable, carebear style marketing tool, and the other who wanted creepy, evil little savages.

As far as the ewoks themselves go, I'll stick with the savage bit. It's a more consistent PoV with the overall plot in ep. 6, I feel, and it makes a better story for how to handle them in an RPG.

Some very interesting and valid points. Thank you! Now I can`t decide if I like it even more or a little less.. Guess I`m of two minds too, like the film makers.

Many people say that it`s Lucas` ex-wife and also the crew that worked with them and everyone who was able to filter George Lucas`many great ideas and imagination that made the OT so good. Idk.. It sure would explain a lot! He is an idea-machine with great imagination and invents new visions all the time. With the Clone Wars there were people cooperating and filtering, and that turned out ok and a even with a few great episodes. George uses the world he has built to tell all kinds of stories it seems, but the fans are split and some get angry if the stories aren`t the kind of stories they expect.

Tbh, the prequels I just found subpar movies. I wasn't really angry about them. You're allowed to make a bad movie, or three. It just means I don't like em!

The only thing George Lucas did that genuinely made me angry was make the original cuts of his first three SW movies unavailable. He took the choice out of my hand on what I want to watch and told me "watch this, or nothing". That made me rather cranky (not because I don't have access to the original three, but because it just seemed like a rather dickish thing to do. Let people like what they like!)

Tbh, the prequels I just found subpar movies. I wasn't really angry about them. You're allowed to make a bad movie, or three. It just means I don't like em!

The only thing George Lucas did that genuinely made me angry was make the original cuts of his first three SW movies unavailable. He took the choice out of my hand on what I want to watch and told me "watch this, or nothing". That made me rather cranky (not because I don't have access to the original three, but because it just seemed like a rather dickish thing to do. Let people like what they like!)

I agree with all of this. I think the prequels are kind of bad, but still have some good things in them, it seemed they were more about world building than storytelling though, so they are kind of boring to watch and I can`t even remember the plot after watching them as I don`t care about any of the characters or what happens to them.. But that`s ok, it doesn`t make me angry.

One thing that does make me angry about them are midichlorians! It put me off Star Wars for a few years, but that made me check out and get into Star Trek, so that`s fine..

Yea, those **** silly, unnecessary changes irritates me alot too and some of them destroys the movies almost. Jabba in the first one takes away all the mystery of him(well, we all know who he is now, but still), Greedo shooting first(or at all) changes what kind of character Han really was and the dance and song seen in Jabba`s Palace is just painfull to watch! And Hayden Christensen`s ghost at the end makes no sense if you only see that movie and to how Luke would see Anakin after Vader unmasked... The added things in the background doesn`t bother me and the enhanced audio and picture is nice. Actually the added small bits with the wampa on Hoth looks good and fits too.

Tbh, the prequels I just found subpar movies. I wasn't really angry about them. You're allowed to make a bad movie, or three. It just means I don't like em!

The only thing George Lucas did that genuinely made me angry was make the original cuts of his first three SW movies unavailable. He took the choice out of my hand on what I want to watch and told me "watch this, or nothing". That made me rather cranky (not because I don't have access to the original three, but because it just seemed like a rather dickish thing to do. Let people like what they like!)

Oh yeah, same thing here.

I don't hate lucas for the prequels. They're just bad movies.

And they kinda prove the point that he's not a good director or even writer.

He's the "idea man". But he needs to have those ideas filtered.

As for what really gets me annoyed about the recutting of the originals, isn't the actual cutting and fiddling he does.

I'm fine with that. It's his movies (well kinda, he wasn't the director on all of them) so he's free to make "directors cut" versions.

But what gets me angry, genuinely angry, is his insistance on "burying" the original cuts.

He refused to re-release them for a very long time.

And when he finally did (that last DVD special where you got the original cut as a "bonus") it was of the laser-disc versions instead of using properly restored film. (and that bs about the original cut not existing any more because they made the re-cuts using that original is just stupid. Nobody would cut the original up and resplice it to make a restored and recut version. You restor it digitally and then do the cuts. It's just an excuse)

That is what really upsets me about Lucas' behavior.

Especially since he himself fought for the preservation of original movies from being recut or recoloured.

Tbh, the prequels I just found subpar movies. I wasn't really angry about them. You're allowed to make a bad movie, or three. It just means I don't like em!

The only thing George Lucas did that genuinely made me angry was make the original cuts of his first three SW movies unavailable. He took the choice out of my hand on what I want to watch and told me "watch this, or nothing". That made me rather cranky (not because I don't have access to the original three, but because it just seemed like a rather dickish thing to do. Let people like what they like!)

I agree with all of this. I think the prequels are kind of bad, but still have some good things in them, it seemed they were more about world building than storytelling though, so they are kind of boring to watch and I can`t even remember the plot after watching them as I don`t care about any of the characters or what happens to them.. But that`s ok, it doesn`t make me angry.

One thing that does make me angry about them are midichlorians! It put me off Star Wars for a few years, but that made me check out and get into Star Trek, so that`s fine..

Yea, those **** silly, unnecessary changes irritates me alot too and some of them destroys the movies almost. Jabba in the first one takes away all the mystery of him(well, we all know who he is now, but still), Greedo shooting first(or at all) changes what kind of character Han really was and the dance and song seen in Jabba`s Palace is just painfull to watch! And Hayden Christensen`s ghost at the end makes no sense if you only see that movie and to how Luke would see Anakin after Vader unmasked... The added things in the background doesn`t bother me and the enhanced audio and picture is nice. Actually the added small bits with the wampa on Hoth looks good and fits too.

All those changes you mention made me realise (at the time, not now) that Lucas really doesn't have a clue about character arcs or how scenes work in the movie as a whole. He just looks at the scene itself and focuses on that exclusively.

Back on topic....

I disagree that Ewoks=cute. They don't.

Wicket=cute, no doubt, but Ewoks not so much. In fact, that chieftain is pretty badass.

We see wicket first and he sets a certain tone but besides him and one other cozying up to Han thry are pretty badass Ursine warriors.

Anyway, I think RotJ would have been a much better (and less "let's sell toys") film if Marquand had been allowed to make more of the decisions about the direction of the film.

From an interview with Gary Kurtz

It was never George's intention to direct Empire?

KURTZ: No, no. After Star Wars, he didn't really want to direct the others. I think he was unhappy that I ? I'm the one that recommended Kershner, and had worked with him before. I think he was a good choice for Empire, I think he worked really well, but he wasn't the kind of director... George, I think, had in the back of his mind that the director was a sort of stand-in ? that he could phone him up every night and tell him what to do and kind of direct vicariously over the telephone. That never happened. Kershner's not that kind of director, and even when George showed up a couple of times on the set, he found that it wasn't easy to maneuver Kershner into doing what he would have done.

So, on Jedi, he was determined to find a director who was easy to control, basically, and he did. And that was the result, basically ? the film was sort of one that George might have directed if he had directed it himself... but maybe not, because it goes through so many interim bits, that if he had directed it probably would have been quite different.

Would you say, in trying to transition out of Star Wars, that your departure was acrimonious?

KURTZ: No, no... I think it was... I think we both were frustrated and decided we just didn't want to work together anymore for the time being. Also, I had for a long time wanted to work again with Jim Henson, and he wanted me to do The Dark Crystal with him, and it was an entirely different kind of challenge. One of the problems at that particular moment was it looked to me like Jedi was going to be disappointing ? with the change in the story, with all of the story material that I had really resonated with being tossed out, and that whole Ewoks thing , and the new Death Star and the same kind of climax of Star Wars. It was, from a creative challenge point of view, kind of a rehash. So the idea of doing something like Dark Crystal, a whole film made up of mechanical creatures with very little in the way of optical effects, trying to make that come to life was an entirely different kind of challenge. That was much more appealing to me.

So it was a mutual ...

KURTZ: It was pretty much a mutual thing, yeah.

(Important bit highlighted by me)

I am glad I can be completely uncynical when it comes to Star Wars... And believe me it doesn't happen often.

Back on topic....

I disagree that Ewoks=cute. They don't.

Wicket=cute, no doubt, but Ewoks not so much. In fact, that chieftain is pretty badass.

We see wicket first and he sets a certain tone but besides him and one other cozying up to Han thry are pretty badass Ursine warriors.

I guess it kind of boils down to this. I agree that Wicket is cute, but still, to me, not in a silly, sugary teddybear way. But I can see it.

The rest of the ewoks are more or less scary, creepy and cool with their canibalistic, sacraficial ways and their native chanting and language that sounds pretty awesome and genuine to me.

I never saw them as or thought of them as cute teddybears before I saw someone complainng about them on the internet and it surprised med because I always saw them as a savage little bunch, contrasted by their size.. But if you see them as fluffy carebears with spears, I get it!

And back to the weapons arguement. I have said a few times that I think it`s kind of irrelevant in this small battle in the woods, but I understand that a lot of other people disagree or don`t find it believable, so I feel I have to explain why I think it doesn`t matter much..

I was a medic in the norwegian army and I know that if someone hits you in the head, even if wearing a helmet, you will not unlikely get a concusion, get your lights knocked out or at least be stunned for a bit with ringing in yor ears. You can even get a skull fracture or brain hemorage. Military armor and protection gear and armor will likely protect you from debris or some indirect hits and a few stabwounds(not all), but unlikely do much against direct hits. It may save your life(or not), but there are still a big chance you might get knocked out or be injured.

So maybe it`s because I know this and could easely see myself being ambushed and killed by a small guy with a rock if he came out of nowhere in the heat of the battle, that I don`t find it so hard to believe these things... And ewoks can start out with 4 in brawn, just like hutts:p They are like apes, much stronger than they look! Hehe.

Anyway, this thread helped me see and understand why some people have a problem with the ewoks and the battle on Endor in particular, so thank you all for that:)

Back on topic....

I disagree that Ewoks=cute. They don't.

Wicket=cute, no doubt, but Ewoks not so much. In fact, that chieftain is pretty badass.

We see wicket first and he sets a certain tone but besides him and one other cozying up to Han thry are pretty badass Ursine warriors.

I guess it kind of boils down to this. I agree that Wicket is cute, but still, to me, not in a silly, sugary teddybear way. But I can see it.

The rest of the ewoks are more or less scary, creepy and cool with their canibalistic, sacraficial ways and their native chanting and language that sounds pretty awesome and genuine to me.

I never saw them as or thought of them as cute teddybears before I saw someone complainng about them on the internet and it surprised med because I always saw them as a savage little bunch, contrasted by their size.. But if you see them as fluffy carebears with spears, I get it!

And back to the weapons arguement. I have said a few times that I think it`s kind of irrelevant in this small battle in the woods, but I understand that a lot of other people disagree or don`t find it believable, so I feel I have to explain why I think it doesn`t matter much..

I was a medic in the norwegian army and I know that if someone hits you in the head, even if wearing a helmet, you will not unlikely get a concusion, get your lights knocked out or at least be stunned for a bit with ringing in yor ears. You can even get a skull fracture or brain hemorage. Military armor and protection gear and armor will likely protect you from debris or some indirect hits and a few stabwounds(not all), but unlikely do much against direct hits. It may save your life(or not), but there are still a big chance you might get knocked out or be injured.

So maybe it`s because I know this and could easely see myself being ambushed and killed by a small guy with a rock if he came out of nowhere in the heat of the battle, that I don`t find it so hard to believe these things... And ewoks can start out with 4 in brawn, just like hutts:p They are like apes, much stronger than they look! Hehe.

Anyway, this thread helped me see and understand why some people have a problem with the ewoks and the battle on Endor in particular, so thank you all for that:)

Maby you should change the name of the thread?

Did the Ewok attack before or after the death of the Emperor? It's been a long time since I watched RotJ. I heard some suggestion that the death of the Emperor caused confusion in his commanders that he was using the force to manipulate them, ie; Battle Meditation.

The bigest problem I have with the battle was the amount of Ewok casulities (1). If they shown alot more ewok casulities and the Rebel Commandos had more screen time fighting we wouldn't have a problem with the battle.

Is the Ewok movies canon as they are also by GL?

I like Treek from SWTOR, she gives a good reason why people should be affraid of a warrior/hunter Ewok.