Whenever someone talks about such and such being at just the right place in a big battle scene I like to remind them that we're watching a highlight reel. There were a hundred other ropes that didn't catch speeder riders.

^ This.

Because they're obviously short people in teddy bear suits and looked stupid.

The same can be said for all the aliens in EP IV, the majority looked SO fake to me and takes me out of the movie. So many bad alien hands and stiff and unnaturally moving alien heads. Greedo's fingers being the worst offender, oof!

You can kill people and animals with spears, bows and arrows and traps, just as much as you can kill someone with a gun or a blaster. To me, that arguement is irrelevant and just falls flat.

The stormtroopers obviously sucked at fighting in this kind of environment and the ewoks were superior at it. On the open battlefield, sure they would loose, but come on, these are their woods! I didn`t hear anyone complaining when Mel Gibson beat the english twice(!) in Braveheart and the Patriot!... Well yea they did, but for other reasons.

And if this is about suspension of disbelief because of the costumes, then I guess we just have different limits in our suspension of disbelief. I have a harder time accepting a lot of CGI than I have with much worse costumes and effects than in RoTJ. But people are different I guess.. And I guess some people would show up in a theatre and get angry because the props and stage effects didn`t look real.

I think it's also the fact that no one wants to play and primitive Ewok lost in the big galaxy.... they want to play an Ewok Sith Lord outlaw tech commando.

In the cartoon, ewoks have force users. They don`t know what jedi are, but shamans and witch doctors are pretty cool too!

I could see myself playing a primitive ewok in the form of a survivalist, big game hunter, beast rider, doctor/force-sensetive(witch doctor).

Avatar was better. A race that had the physical skills but just lacked the plan and tactics. Ewoks are obviously pudgy short people in teddy bear outfits waddling around, barely able to move in a straight line, whose race would've been turned into predator poop.

Do you even Star Wars?

Avatar was better. A race that had the physical skills but just lacked the plan and tactics. Ewoks are obviously pudgy short people in teddy bear outfits waddling around, barely able to move in a straight line, whose race would've been turned into predator poop.

Avatar was better. A race that had the physical skills but just lacked the plan and tactics.

Some would say plans and tactics are more important.... Brains win! That`s why Lord Varys is the most powerful man in Westeros and Ned Stark and Tywin Lanister are dead...

Oh, Tyrion Lanister lives too..

It's because grizzled old-timers, and kids in their late teens at the time of Jedi's release (who were kids in 77) forgot the fact that what they had fallen in love with was in fact a series of kids movies.

BTW, this is nothing new... in 1980 we had these same arguments over that **** Muppet who sounded just like Grover.

It's because grizzled old-timers, and kids in their late teens at the time of Jedi's release (who were kids in 77) forgot the fact that what they had fallen in love with was in fact a series of kids movies.

BTW, this is nothing new... in 1980 we had these same arguments over that **** Muppet who sounded just like Grover.

Kids movies with burnt, smoking corpses and slavery. You know, for the kids..

I don't have a problem with them at all. It's a very clear analogy, the US Military didn't think that primitive people in Vietnam would be able to fight so effectively either, but with knowledge of the terrain and their own kind of sophistication it can happen.

Sure, because the VC used spears and bows, right? No. They used assault rifles and had full knowledge of what the Americans could use even if they themselves didn't have all those toys. Ewoks on the other hand are a stone age culture.

Some of those ewok warriors (high brawn and agility) were wielding blaster rifles by the end of the fight, IIRC.

It's because grizzled old-timers, and kids in their late teens at the time of Jedi's release (who were kids in 77) forgot the fact that what they had fallen in love with was in fact a series of kids movies.

BTW, this is nothing new... in 1980 we had these same arguments over that **** Muppet who sounded just like Grover.

Kids movies with burnt, smoking corpses and slavery. You know, for the kids..

Actually, shocking imagry and stories have been used throughout history (Hansel and Gretel... boiling kids alive is just one of many examples that come to mind) in children's stories... espcially morality tales.

Sorry, but Lucas said back in 77 that his core audience were kids around 9-12... that didn't change.

The Ewoks had quite a few advantages.

1. Numbers the Ewoks out numbered the Imperial Troops at least 10 to 1.

2. Terrain the dense forest limits the effective range of blasters due to poor visibility it also eliminates the effectiveness of most of the Imperial vehicles.

3. No real defensive positions to slow down an Ewok Charge meaning you might kill dozens of Ewoks, but without a defensive position they are just going to get overwhelmed and killed.

4. Armor Storm Trooper armor is terrible. limited visibility large gaps at the joints and limited mobility.

5. Morale the Ewoks are religious zealot cannibals while the Imperials are conscripted troopers assigned to a crappy post.

6. Size the actual size of an Ewok especially given how the brush in the dense forest is bigger then they are means that the Storm Troopers who have problems hitting normal people sized targets relying entirely on volume of fire are even more likely to miss.

Technology really doesn't matter if you can't use it effectively to win.

I don't have a problem with them at all. It's a very clear analogy, the US Military didn't think that primitive people in Vietnam would be able to fight so effectively either, but with knowledge of the terrain and their own kind of sophistication it can happen.

Sure, because the VC used spears and bows, right? No. They used assault rifles and had full knowledge of what the Americans could use even if they themselves didn't have all those toys. Ewoks on the other hand are a stone age culture.

That doesn`t mean they were stupid, bad at tactisc, strategy and didn`t have sophisticated traps and were great hunters. Because of the traps I would also argue they weren`t stone age at all.

I can`t really see how relevant it is what weapons they used to kill you with in the wilderness, what the imperials used in the jungle was clearly too clumsy.

And the ewoks were all just part of it, cooperating with the rebels.

If using bows and arrows and spears is the definition, then John Rambo was a really poor one-man army...

Just because he was taller doesn't mean much when you are using trees to drive spikes into the enemy or hold ropes that will knock them down.

The Ewoks had quite a few advantages.

1. Numbers the Ewoks out numbered the Imperial Troops at least 10 to 1.

2. Terrain the dense forest limits the effective range of blasters due to poor visibility it also eliminates the effectiveness of most of the Imperial vehicles.

3. No real defensive positions to slow down an Ewok Charge meaning you might kill dozens of Ewoks, but without a defensive position they are just going to get overwhelmed and killed.

4. Armor Storm Trooper armor is terrible. limited visibility large gaps at the joints and limited mobility.

5. Morale the Ewoks are religious zealot cannibals while the Imperials are conscripted troopers assigned to a crappy post.

6. Size the actual size of an Ewok especially given how the brush in the dense forest is bigger then they are means that the Storm Troopers who have problems hitting normal people sized targets relying entirely on volume of fire are even more likely to miss.

Technology really doesn't matter if you can't use it effectively to win.

And terrain and dense forest don't limit rocks and sticks? Have you ever thrown a rock or stick in the forest as opposed to pulling the trigger on a machine gun? I have, Ill go with the MG.

The stormtroopers were the emperor's finest, not grumbling conscripts, every bit as zealous Your assertion is fiction within fiction.

Pretty sure the Empire conquered a planet or two and knew how to fight.

Whenever someone talks about such and such being at just the right place in a big battle scene I like to remind them that we're watching a highlight reel. There were a hundred other ropes that didn't catch speeder riders.

^ This.

Because they're obviously short people in teddy bear suits and looked stupid.

The same can be said for all the aliens in EP IV, the majority looked SO fake to me and takes me out of the movie. So many bad alien hands and stiff and unnaturally moving alien heads. Greedo's fingers being the worst offender, oof!

Sure, but those aliens were usually not instrumental in defeating the empire in hand to hand combat (pretty much)

You can kill people and animals with spears, bows and arrows and traps, just as much as you can kill someone with a gun or a blaster. To me, that arguement is irrelevant and just falls flat.

The stormtroopers obviously sucked at fighting in this kind of environment and the ewoks were superior at it. On the open battlefield, sure they would loose, but come on, these are their woods! I didn`t hear anyone complaining when Mel Gibson beat the english twice(!) in Braveheart and the Patriot!... Well yea they did, but for other reasons.

And if this is about suspension of disbelief because of the costumes, then I guess we just have different limits in our suspension of disbelief. I have a harder time accepting a lot of CGI than I have with much worse costumes and effects than in RoTJ. But people are different I guess.. And I guess some people would show up in a theatre and get angry because the props and stage effects didn`t look real.

I think it's also the fact that no one wants to play and primitive Ewok lost in the big galaxy.... they want to play an Ewok Sith Lord outlaw tech commando.

In the cartoon, ewoks have force users. They don`t know what jedi are, but shamans and witch doctors are pretty cool too!

I could see myself playing a primitive ewok in the form of a survivalist, big game hunter, beast rider, doctor/force-sensetive(witch doctor).

You can kill people and animals with spears, bows and traps, yes.

However, it seems incredibly strange to be able to defeat armoured troopers with flint-tipped spears and axes.

We're not even talking steel tipped spears and arrows here, we're talking flint... against armored troops.

I'd have a hard time believing that a flint-tipped spear would penetrate todays armour, let alone the armour of the storm troopers.

In fact, I don't recall ever seeing them penetrate the stormtroopers armour in the movie. They just seem to "bump" them on the had a bit and the troopers fall over in the same way that parents fall over when their kids play-fight with them.

It is entirely unconvincing.

If using bows and arrows and spears is the definition, then John Rambo was a really poor one-man army...

Just because he was taller doesn't mean much when you are using trees to drive spikes into the enemy or hold ropes that will knock them down.

Yeah, I don't remember Rambo using a wooden bow with flint-tipped arrows against armored opponents, though.

As far as I recall, he had a compound bow with arrows that had explosive tips.

Quite the difference there...

Actually, shocking imagry and stories have been used throughout history (Hansel and Gretel... boiling kids alive is just one of many examples that come to mind) in children's stories... espcially morality tales.

Sorry, but Lucas said back in 77 that his core audience were kids around 9-12... that didn't change.

I am familiar with stories like that. I work in a norwegian kindergarten and we still have a few scary stories and faerytales and the kids love it! Hehe

He said that? I didn`t know that, that is very interesting, thank you!

Sorry, but Lucas said back in 77 that his core audience were kids around 9-12... that didn't change.

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to ask for a source on that one...

I'm actually watching the battle of Endor again right now (just because I felt I hadn't watched it in a while), and I could have accepted the Ewoks part in it if it had just stayed at the distraction level.

It works perfectly fine with them showing up and showering the Stormtroopers with ineffective, but very distracting, flint-tipped arrows (of course, those arrows would be dangerous to the officers that didn't have armour) and then as a distraction to spread out the imperial forces while the rebel troops dealt with them.
But that's not what happens.
It starts out that way, but then the Ewoks start destroying AT-ST's with strangely well-placed traps (that would have taken ages to prepare) and siege machines (really? They used catapults? Static ones, no less, so hardly for "hunting").
And they also manage to actually kill stormtroopers (or at least incapacitate them) with sticks and rocks. Some even go down from rocks the size of a fist being thrown at their helmets... really? If that's all it takes to knock out a Stormtrooper, then I don't know why every planet hasn't revolted already!
Chewie takes over an AT-ST, which is believable (although, the tarzan shout is a bit silly) and that, in combination with the rebel forces launching a counterattack while the imperial forces are distracted, would have been alot more believable than the Ewoks playing such a large part in the actual combat.

Whenever someone talks about such and such being at just the right place in a big battle scene I like to remind them that we're watching a highlight reel. There were a hundred other ropes that didn't catch speeder riders.

^ This.

Because they're obviously short people in teddy bear suits and looked stupid.

The same can be said for all the aliens in EP IV, the majority looked SO fake to me and takes me out of the movie. So many bad alien hands and stiff and unnaturally moving alien heads. Greedo's fingers being the worst offender, oof!

Sure, but those aliens were usually not instrumental in defeating the empire in hand to hand combat (pretty much)

You can kill people and animals with spears, bows and arrows and traps, just as much as you can kill someone with a gun or a blaster. To me, that arguement is irrelevant and just falls flat.

The stormtroopers obviously sucked at fighting in this kind of environment and the ewoks were superior at it. On the open battlefield, sure they would loose, but come on, these are their woods! I didn`t hear anyone complaining when Mel Gibson beat the english twice(!) in Braveheart and the Patriot!... Well yea they did, but for other reasons.

And if this is about suspension of disbelief because of the costumes, then I guess we just have different limits in our suspension of disbelief. I have a harder time accepting a lot of CGI than I have with much worse costumes and effects than in RoTJ. But people are different I guess.. And I guess some people would show up in a theatre and get angry because the props and stage effects didn`t look real.

I think it's also the fact that no one wants to play and primitive Ewok lost in the big galaxy.... they want to play an Ewok Sith Lord outlaw tech commando.

In the cartoon, ewoks have force users. They don`t know what jedi are, but shamans and witch doctors are pretty cool too!

I could see myself playing a primitive ewok in the form of a survivalist, big game hunter, beast rider, doctor/force-sensetive(witch doctor).

You can kill people and animals with spears, bows and traps, yes.

However, it seems incredibly strange to be able to defeat armoured troopers with flint-tipped spears and axes.

We're not even talking steel tipped spears and arrows here, we're talking flint... against armored troops.

I'd have a hard time believing that a flint-tipped spear would penetrate todays armour, let alone the armour of the storm troopers.

In fact, I don't recall ever seeing them penetrate the stormtroopers armour in the movie. They just seem to "bump" them on the had a bit and the troopers fall over in the same way that parents fall over when their kids play-fight with them.

It is entirely unconvincing.

If using bows and arrows and spears is the definition, then John Rambo was a really poor one-man army...

Just because he was taller doesn't mean much when you are using trees to drive spikes into the enemy or hold ropes that will knock them down.

Yeah, I don't remember Rambo using a wooden bow with flint-tipped arrows against armored opponents, though.

As far as I recall, he had a compound bow with arrows that had explosive tips.

Quite the difference there...

....

The Ewoks had quite a few advantages.

1. Numbers the Ewoks out numbered the Imperial Troops at least 10 to 1.

2. Terrain the dense forest limits the effective range of blasters due to poor visibility it also eliminates the effectiveness of most of the Imperial vehicles.

3. No real defensive positions to slow down an Ewok Charge meaning you might kill dozens of Ewoks, but without a defensive position they are just going to get overwhelmed and killed.

4. Armor Storm Trooper armor is terrible. limited visibility large gaps at the joints and limited mobility.

5. Morale the Ewoks are religious zealot cannibals while the Imperials are conscripted troopers assigned to a crappy post.

6. Size the actual size of an Ewok especially given how the brush in the dense forest is bigger then they are means that the Storm Troopers who have problems hitting normal people sized targets relying entirely on volume of fire are even more likely to miss.

Technology really doesn't matter if you can't use it effectively to win.

This ^

I'm actually watching the battle of Endor again right now (just because I felt I hadn't watched it in a while), and I could have accepted the Ewoks part in it if it had just stayed at the distraction level.

It works perfectly fine with them showing up and showering the Stormtroopers with ineffective, but very distracting, flint-tipped arrows (of course, those arrows would be dangerous to the officers that didn't have armour) and then as a distraction to spread out the imperial forces while the rebel troops dealt with them.

But that's not what happens.

It starts out that way, but then the Ewoks start destroying AT-ST's with strangely well-placed traps (that would have taken ages to prepare) and siege machines (really? They used catapults? Static ones, no less, so hardly for "hunting").

And they also manage to actually kill stormtroopers (or at least incapacitate them) with sticks and rocks. Some even go down from rocks the size of a fist being thrown at their helmets... really? If that's all it takes to knock out a Stormtrooper, then I don't know why every planet hasn't revolted already!

Chewie takes over an AT-ST, which is believable (although, the tarzan shout is a bit silly) and that, in combination with the rebel forces launching a counterattack while the imperial forces are distracted, would have been alot more believable than the Ewoks playing such a large part in the actual combat.

So they have advanced traps, this is Star Wars!... Catapults aren`t for hunting? This is Star Wars.. And maybe protection(have you seen a gorax?).

Those catapults and traps could have been there for years and years and been part of their clever tarpping culture for eons! If that is too much suspension of disbelief, I`m not sure if Star Wars, fantasy or sci-fi is for you... Sorry.

And a little fun fact, thos spears and arrows ar filled up with the Force;) Either ewok shamanism Force or Luke put it in there....

This ^

Ugh, fine, I'll reply to that error ridden post then. (I ingored it because it was so filled with errors that I didn't even think it was a serious one)

The Ewoks had quite a few advantages.

1. Numbers the Ewoks out numbered the Imperial Troops at least 10 to 1.

2. Terrain the dense forest limits the effective range of blasters due to poor visibility it also eliminates the effectiveness of most of the Imperial vehicles.

3. No real defensive positions to slow down an Ewok Charge meaning you might kill dozens of Ewoks, but without a defensive position they are just going to get overwhelmed and killed.

4. Armor Storm Trooper armor is terrible. limited visibility large gaps at the joints and limited mobility.

5. Morale the Ewoks are religious zealot cannibals while the Imperials are conscripted troopers assigned to a crappy post.

6. Size the actual size of an Ewok especially given how the brush in the dense forest is bigger then they are means that the Storm Troopers who have problems hitting normal people sized targets relying entirely on volume of fire are even more likely to miss.

Technology really doesn't matter if you can't use it effectively to win.

1. How do you factor that? From the movie, you don't see many more Ewoks than you see stormtroopers and scout troopers.

2. Eh, sure, but apparantly it doesn't limit the effective range of bows and spears? That's kinda BS. Also, the Imperial vehicles on that planet were there for a reason. They were scout vehicles used on planets just like this one. I don't see them limited in any way during the movie. The walkers have no trouble moving around (and decimating the Ewoks), and the speeders certainly have no trouble moving around either.

3. Sure, if the Ewoks had used human wave (ewok wave?) tactics. But they didn't. Not once. And that still relies on them outnumbering the imperials, which they still don't appear to do in the movie.

Also, no real defensive positions? It's a jungle! It's filled with defensive positions! Not to mention a bunker and several imperial walkers.

4. Still enough to hold up against a flint tipped arrow or spear. Hell, thick cloth would be enough to stop that in most cases. And you really don't have any in-movie evidence that the armour is limiting their mobility. Sure, the visibility is hinted at by Luke, but then he's the only one that complains, and he's "too short" anyway, so the helmet is most likely too large.

Truth is, you don't have any in-movie reference to what the black undersuit is made up of. It could be puncture proof for all we know.

Point is, the stormtrooper armour would be more than enough to effectively repel flint-tipped arrows and even flint clubs being bashed on them.

5. That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day. Stormtroopers are just as zealot as the Ewoks. There are examples of both running away during battles. And this Legion was one of the Empires elites. Most elites aren't "conscripted soldiers assigned to a crappy post".

6. Storm troopers don't seem to have much trouble hitting people unless it's the movies heroes. And there's plenty of theories that explain the "stormtrooper inaccuracy" during the first movie (and even during cloud city in the second one).

Also, the small size of the Ewoks works as a disadvantage when they're using primitive weapons that rely on physical force to do damage. They simply don't have the strength to use those weaopns as effectively as a human sized creature would.

Technology sure doesn't matter if you can't use it.

But if you look at the battle in the movie, you'll see that they're using it pretty darned effectively.

It's just "movie magic" that makes the Ewoks win.

I'm actually watching the battle of Endor again right now (just because I felt I hadn't watched it in a while), and I could have accepted the Ewoks part in it if it had just stayed at the distraction level.

It works perfectly fine with them showing up and showering the Stormtroopers with ineffective, but very distracting, flint-tipped arrows (of course, those arrows would be dangerous to the officers that didn't have armour) and then as a distraction to spread out the imperial forces while the rebel troops dealt with them.

But that's not what happens.

It starts out that way, but then the Ewoks start destroying AT-ST's with strangely well-placed traps (that would have taken ages to prepare) and siege machines (really? They used catapults? Static ones, no less, so hardly for "hunting").

And they also manage to actually kill stormtroopers (or at least incapacitate them) with sticks and rocks. Some even go down from rocks the size of a fist being thrown at their helmets... really? If that's all it takes to knock out a Stormtrooper, then I don't know why every planet hasn't revolted already!

Chewie takes over an AT-ST, which is believable (although, the tarzan shout is a bit silly) and that, in combination with the rebel forces launching a counterattack while the imperial forces are distracted, would have been alot more believable than the Ewoks playing such a large part in the actual combat.

So they have advanced traps, this is Star Wars!... Catapults aren`t for hunting? This is Star Wars.. And maybe protection(have you seen a gorax?).

Those catapults and traps could have been there for years and years and been part of their clever tarpping culture for eons! If that is too much suspension of disbelief, I`m not sure if Star Wars, fantasy or sci-fi is for you... Sorry.

And a little fun fact, thos spears and arrows ar filled up with the Force;) Either ewok shamanism Force or Luke put it in there....

Oh fine, the force did it.

Then you are obviously fine with Gungans, the prequels, greedo being buddies with anakin, anakin building C-3P0 and both droids hanging around with Obi-wan and anakin for ages and yet neither of them recognizes them in the old movies... and all that stuff...

because... da forze

This ^

Ugh, fine, I'll reply to that error ridden post then. (I ingored it because it was so filled with errors that I didn't even think it was a serious one)

The Ewoks had quite a few advantages.

1. Numbers the Ewoks out numbered the Imperial Troops at least 10 to 1.

2. Terrain the dense forest limits the effective range of blasters due to poor visibility it also eliminates the effectiveness of most of the Imperial vehicles.

3. No real defensive positions to slow down an Ewok Charge meaning you might kill dozens of Ewoks, but without a defensive position they are just going to get overwhelmed and killed.

4. Armor Storm Trooper armor is terrible. limited visibility large gaps at the joints and limited mobility.

5. Morale the Ewoks are religious zealot cannibals while the Imperials are conscripted troopers assigned to a crappy post.

6. Size the actual size of an Ewok especially given how the brush in the dense forest is bigger then they are means that the Storm Troopers who have problems hitting normal people sized targets relying entirely on volume of fire are even more likely to miss.

Technology really doesn't matter if you can't use it effectively to win.

1. How do you factor that? From the movie, you don't see many more Ewoks than you see stormtroopers and scout troopers.

2. Eh, sure, but apparantly it doesn't limit the effective range of bows and spears? That's kinda BS. Also, the Imperial vehicles on that planet were there for a reason. They were scout vehicles used on planets just like this one. I don't see them limited in any way during the movie. The walkers have no trouble moving around (and decimating the Ewoks), and the speeders certainly have no trouble moving around either.

3. Sure, if the Ewoks had used human wave (ewok wave?) tactics. But they didn't. Not once. And that still relies on them outnumbering the imperials, which they still don't appear to do in the movie.

Also, no real defensive positions? It's a jungle! It's filled with defensive positions! Not to mention a bunker and several imperial walkers.

4. Still enough to hold up against a flint tipped arrow or spear. Hell, thick cloth would be enough to stop that in most cases. And you really don't have any in-movie evidence that the armour is limiting their mobility. Sure, the visibility is hinted at by Luke, but then he's the only one that complains, and he's "too short" anyway, so the helmet is most likely too large.

Truth is, you don't have any in-movie reference to what the black undersuit is made up of. It could be puncture proof for all we know.

Point is, the stormtrooper armour would be more than enough to effectively repel flint-tipped arrows and even flint clubs being bashed on them.

5. That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day. Stormtroopers are just as zealot as the Ewoks. There are examples of both running away during battles. And this Legion was one of the Empires elites. Most elites aren't "conscripted soldiers assigned to a crappy post".

6. Storm troopers don't seem to have much trouble hitting people unless it's the movies heroes. And there's plenty of theories that explain the "stormtrooper inaccuracy" during the first movie (and even during cloud city in the second one).

Also, the small size of the Ewoks works as a disadvantage when they're using primitive weapons that rely on physical force to do damage. They simply don't have the strength to use those weaopns as effectively as a human sized creature would.

Technology sure doesn't matter if you can't use it.

But if you look at the battle in the movie, you'll see that they're using it pretty darned effectively.

It's just "movie magic" that makes the Ewoks win.

Your games must be so much fun...

The PC heroes on the ground rolled triumphs on their Leadership checks in leading squads for a mass battle allowing the npc ewoks to crit/kill stormies!

I think one could argue that the ewoks were not winning that fight at all. All we were shown were small snippets where the ewoks were victorious. But keep in mind that fight was raging all the way up until the shield generator blew, and perhaps after that too, so it is very conceivable that the ewoks were starting to loose once they lost the element of surprise.