Because it doesn't make sense within the worlds setting.

And having primitive stone-age creatures that have shown no evidence of being stronger (or even as strong as) the average human beating heavily armed and armored elite soldiers with nothing but a few sticks and stones, because that diminishes the struggle of the rest of the rebellion and also, just isn't very credible.

If the best legion of the imperial army gets beaten by such a primitive tribe of halflings with that much ease, then how could they ever control a semi-advanced world, let alone really advanced worlds where high-tech weaponry and other tehnology is readily available.

I was about to type out a big ol' response, but awayputurwpn beat me to the far more articulated punch. They had intimate knowledge of the terrain, had been maneuvering in and around it all their very lives (as in, a predator will eat them if they F up), they got the drop on the empire, surrounding them. And the Empire was doing fine in the clearing until they got arrogant, broke up into smaller 2 and 3 man units and perused the Ewoks into the jungle, where the indigenous life forms with the home court advantage tore them up.

Plus it wouldn't serve the Happy Ending if the Empire gunned down ewoks like a skeetshoot.

Oddball, would love to hear your thoughts on the advantage the Ewoks had in numbers and home-turf stealthiness, if you have the time to consider it and reply! One of my posts mentioning it is quoted below:

Yeah, the thing that gets me mostly is the sloppy weapons (seriously, google stone age weapons) and the ungainly movements of the Ewoks.

They just don't look believable. Or at least they don't make a believable portrayal of a savage bear like species that could defeat imperial stormtroopers in hand to hand combat.

Like I pointed out earlier, though, it wasn't " hand to hand combat." It was sneaky, underhanded fighting. They hit below the belt. It was like a combo Zergling/Lurker rush (for the Star Craft players among us). They engaged the stormtroopers only when they had the advantage of dense foliage and superior numbers, and otherwise ran for their lives.

In the instances where it's one stormtrooper vs. one Ewok (I can think of one short scene in particular), the stormtrooper is able to simply pick the Ewok up and throw him. But when the Ewoks jump group-tackle the troopers from their hiding places, that's when they are able to bring them down.

The other post is here , which you quoted in reply, but you only responded to the first part. My bad for putting together a multi-point post. I'm getting better But still, would like to get your take on this specifically:

And anyway, look at how many Ewoks there were compared to the stormtroopers! That is why they were able to overcome them initially: they hid in the trees, and then attacked suddenly and en-masse, using their advantage of numbers and stealth. Most of the times, the stormtroopers simply couldn't get a shot off because the Ewoks weren't fighting fair. Sneaking up and attacking the stormies 3 to 1 was their MO, and it worked long enough to allow the heroes of the Rebellion to do their thing.

But had the Ewoks been attacking alone, they would have been destroyed, because they couldn't deal with those AT-STs. The Empire would have recovered from the initial surprise and pressed the assault into the forest, blowing stuff up indiscriminately. Or the Death Star would have just blown up the moon.

My contention is that too much is being made out of the Ewoks' defeat of the stormtroopers. It seems to be first being blown out of proportion, and then dismissed as unbelievable.

It was what it was, obviously (and I understand some people enjoy the cinema of it while others don't), and we do see some bludgeoning beatdowns going on, but it's pretty much only when the Ewoks are literally mobbing the troopers. Even if they only weigh around 100 lbs, that's 300 pounds of tackling weight and 6 arms to contend with. Is it really that incredible that the stormtroopers could be taken down by a huge group of stealthy, short, strong, furry aliens who obviously outnumber them?

Like I've said numerous times in this thread already, the thought of the Ewoks ambushing the Imperials at the backdoor to the Power Generator makes perfect sense.

The fact that they then keep beating the Imps after the Imps start going after them is what irks me (and others).

You could argue that they'd have tons and tons of ambushes over and over, but even the bloody Empire would learn after one or two to not keep walking into the traps and ambushes.

As for numerical advantage, I don't see anything that supports that.

The Emperor said he had a full legion of the Empires best stormtroopers down there, and that means about ten thousand stormtroopers.

Granted, they weren't all at that one backdoor, but it still doesn't look like they're outnumbered much by the Ewoks.

So that advantage is only there if you pretend that it's there. (which would be akin to handwaving, but since it's not mentioned or even alluded to in the movie, there's no reason to think there were many more Ewoks than you see unless you're really grasping at straws to explain the Ewoks winning).

Now, as I said befor in this thread, I would have been perfectly fine with the whole end battle if they had shown the rebels doing something more.

But as it stands, this is what we get: The rebels move up to the backdoor, overwhelm the very small guarding force, and then get promptly captured by a numerically vastly superior force of stormtroopers and walkers.

Then the Ewoks make a surprise attack with roughly the same number as the stormtroopers.

(this is where I'd have changed it so that the rebels used this diversion to hit the stormtroopers from the back and really show them doing something)

And then the Ewoks proceed to beat the stormtroopers (and walkers!) repeatedly with nothing but primitive flint-age weapons and rocks.

Oh and the Ewoks take one single casualty in all this.

Complete incompetence and stupidity amongst the stormtroopers seem to be the only resistance they face.

There's nothing in the fight that makes it look like the stormtroopers know what they're doing or even that they've ever been in combat before.

In short, they look like bumbling baffoons, despite being the crack legion according to the Emperor.

(sure, it could be argued that the stormtroopers have looked like baffoons before, but even then the rebels have at least been running away at the time.)

Just because there are laser beam swords, space ships moving as if they were planes and wizard powers, doesn't mean that you can do just whatever you want.

I am absolutely into that philosophy.

That being said...

primitive stone-age creatures that have shown no evidence of being stronger (or even as strong as) the average human beating heavily armed and armored elite soldiers with nothing but a few sticks and stones

Has been set in place in this reality by the same source as "laser beam swords, space ships moving as if they were planes and wizard powers" and is, arguably, just as valid as the rest of it...

And maybe THAT is what alienated a lot of people. To them, ewoks are that last undesirable bit of candy in the otherwise tasty Whitman's Sampler.

We have not used ewoks in our games, yet... but if we did... We would probably need to remember that despite the limits of the costumes and effects, the story has them not only as canonically VERY capable warriors but also inclined to EAT HUMANOIDS.

Their cinematic presentation may have been overly cutesy... but their in-universe reality is actually a bit terrifying.

Like these little guys:

Naah, they could be as savage and bloodthirsty as you'd like, they still shouldn't beat stormtroopers using nothing but stone-aged weapons as easily as they did.

Hell, if the creatures from Galaxy Quest had attacked Stormtroopers, one would have expected the Stormtroopers to, if not win the battle outright, at least take a whole bunch of them with them.

And if they were on a 1:1 numerical situation, I'd fully expect the Stormtroopers to win.

(Unless the creatures turned out to be blasterproof or anything like that)

Because it doesn't make sense within the worlds setting.

And having primitive stone-age creatures that have shown no evidence of being stronger (or even as strong as) the average human beating heavily armed and armored elite soldiers with nothing but a few sticks and stones, because that diminishes the struggle of the rest of the rebellion and also, just isn't very credible.

If the best legion of the imperial army gets beaten by such a primitive tribe of halflings with that much ease, then how could they ever control a semi-advanced world, let alone really advanced worlds where high-tech weaponry and other tehnology is readily available.

I was about to type out a big ol' response, but awayputurwpn beat me to the far more articulated punch. They had intimate knowledge of the terrain, had been maneuvering in and around it all their very lives (as in, a predator will eat them if they F up), they got the drop on the empire, surrounding them. And the Empire was doing fine in the clearing until they got arrogant, broke up into smaller 2 and 3 man units and perused the Ewoks into the jungle, where the indigenous life forms with the home court advantage tore them up.

Plus it wouldn't serve the Happy Ending if the Empire gunned down ewoks like a skeetshoot.

I answered that in this post (after the first quote), but included your post because I wanted to adress that last bit.

Of course it wouldn't serve as a happy ending if they gunned down the ewoks and won.

That's not the point here.

People are not saying that all the ewoks should have died and the empire should have won.

People are just saying that it makes no sense that they did.

It's the equivalent of the magic fairy just showing up and waving her wand to make the stormtroopers dissapear.

Sure, you could explain that in the setting of the universe, but it would be a sh*tty ending and nobody would like it.

If Lucas had made the rebels step in and help the Ewoks and shown them fighting side by side, and maby the Ewoks picking up the fallen stormtroopers weapons, then sure... I'd buy that.

PS. When I say "the rebels", I'm not talking about Han, Leia and the droids. I'm talking about the Rebel commandos that accompanied them. You know, the bunch of guys that basically vanish after the Ewoks attack the stormtroopers. You don't see them at all in the combat that follows. Not even around the backdoor where Han and Leia are hanging out.

A legion is not 10.000 soldiers and it never has been. Even in ancient rome it was somewhere around 4.000 men. However that meaning soon changed to being "a large number".

A legion is not 10.000 soldiers and it never has been. Even in ancient rome it was somewhere around 4.000 men. However that meaning soon changed to being "a large number".

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Legion

Legion, originally, was a unit size of approx. 1000 men, at high points 1500 during the Roman Monarchy and Republic. Only later, in the Roman empire, was the size increased to 5k. What it really means though, is simply "the gathered", later "a body of soldiers". In modern context, a legion is still a fixed unit size that varies from nation to nation (those that still use the term, that is). There is no 'definitive' size per se, nor is there an upper or lower end of what can be referred to as "legion".

I don't know any hard numbers for what consists of one in Star Wars either. That is really entirely open to the interpretation of the viewer.

Edit: Dear god that wiki article needs proper citations...

A legion is not 10.000 soldiers and it never has been. Even in ancient rome it was somewhere around 4.000 men. However that meaning soon changed to being "a large number".

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Legion

That really needs an update... I have no idea from whence they got that number.

Okay, just out of curiosity,I checked out the opening "round" of the fight.

According to my rough count (numbers may not be completely precise, I'm estimating from placement of people in cutaways and reverse angles), the Empire had on camera:

6 black helmet guys (although 4 of these guys run straight back into the bunker when the fight starts)

37 Stormtroopers

5 biker scouts

10 officers

The rebels had:

The Big Three (plus two)

12 Commandos

55 Ewoks

At the end of the first volley, there are 9 dead (or incapacitated) Stormtroopers from the surprise attack and no dead rebels. So yes, the ewoks did have the Empire outnumbered from the get-go (especially if you figure in that the ones that were not in the opening attack - the ones in place by the catapults probably didn't leave their ambush point, the one in the glider probably wasn't in the clearing either).

A legion is not 10.000 soldiers and it never has been. Even in ancient rome it was somewhere around 4.000 men. However that meaning soon changed to being "a large number".

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Legion

That really needs an update... I have no idea from whence they got that number.

It's an EU thing, which was an attempt to define things in the movies that the movies themselves didn't fully define. Notice that the link is to the Legends page, not the Canon page.

This is all the information that actual Star Wars canon gives us on "legions."

Okay, just out of curiosity,I checked out the opening "round" of the fight.

According to my rough count (numbers may not be completely precise, I'm estimating from placement of people in cutaways and reverse angles), the Empire had on camera:

6 black helmet guys (although 4 of these guys run straight back into the bunker when the fight starts)

37 Stormtroopers

5 biker scouts

10 officers

The rebels had:

The Big Three (plus two)

12 Commandos

55 Ewoks

At the end of the first volley, there are 9 dead (or incapacitated) Stormtroopers from the surprise attack and no dead rebels. So yes, the ewoks did have the Empire outnumbered from the get-go (especially if you figure in that the ones that were not in the opening attack - the ones in place by the catapults probably didn't leave their ambush point, the one in the glider probably wasn't in the clearing either).

10 Officers?? That seems odd ratio of officers to troopers.

Well who knows if they were officers of any rank. I was just counting the little blobs of Imperials in gray that weren't stormtroopers. The ones that didnt have the big black hats.

Okay, just out of curiosity,I checked out the opening "round" of the fight.

According to my rough count (numbers may not be completely precise, I'm estimating from placement of people in cutaways and reverse angles), the Empire had on camera:

6 black helmet guys (although 4 of these guys run straight back into the bunker when the fight starts)

37 Stormtroopers

5 biker scouts

10 officers

The rebels had:

The Big Three (plus two)

12 Commandos

55 Ewoks

At the end of the first volley, there are 9 dead (or incapacitated) Stormtroopers from the surprise attack and no dead rebels. So yes, the ewoks did have the Empire outnumbered from the get-go (especially if you figure in that the ones that were not in the opening attack - the ones in place by the catapults probably didn't leave their ambush point, the one in the glider probably wasn't in the clearing either).

Sure, that's what's on camera... but that doesn't mean they were actually outnumbered that way.

Also, you can't really count the 12 commandos and the Big Three since those were actually captured at the time of the attack.

So it was 55 Ewoks vs. 58 Empire troops.

I'd hardly call that outnumbering in any way (not even in the favor of Empire troops)

(and no, you can't count the ones not in the opening attack, since we don't know that all the stormtroopers in subsequent scenes are from the group standing around outside the bunker)

Do any you ever get that feeling, you know, that realization.. "O, my God, I am a huge nerd!"... I do..

Do any you ever get that feeling, you know, that realization.. "O, my God, I am a huge nerd!"... I do..

Erryday!

This thread reminds of the greatest movie of all time .

Our armor works again bullets to the torso. It still does almost nothing to help against large kinetic transfers (falling, motor vehicle collisions, etc.) and it's only of limited use against blasts (helps against fragments, but not against the pressure wave).

Seeing as it's primary purpose is to hinder bullets from entering your torso and playing merry hob with your insides, I'd say it's working fairly well.

There's definitely room for improvement but it's heads and shoulders above the Empire's gear.

Our armor works again bullets to the torso. It still does almost nothing to help against large kinetic transfers (falling, motor vehicle collisions, etc.) and it's only of limited use against blasts (helps against fragments, but not against the pressure wave).

Seeing as it's primary purpose is to hinder bullets from entering your torso and playing merry hob with your insides, I'd say it's working fairly well.

There's definitely room for improvement but it's heads and shoulders above the Empire's gear.

What is your point? I'm well aware of how effective it is from my own firsthand experiences treating wounded soldiers. My point was that it's a specialized form of protection (localized and dedicated to stopping ballistic penetration), not the one-rating-fits-all protection like we see in this game.

Lets just say that Ewoks are silhouette 0 Wookies without the Madclaw disadvantage.

Death by Ewok!

Think of all those stormtroopers the ewoks ate!

You just proved that gungans can be cool and awesome! I`m sure that`s what you`re going for

Thanks, man!

Annie, Mesa Sith Lord now like you

Mesa Sith lord now

You know, I think he was all along. He sure fuels the hate..

Our armor works again bullets to the torso. It still does almost nothing to help against large kinetic transfers (falling, motor vehicle collisions, etc.) and it's only of limited use against blasts (helps against fragments, but not against the pressure wave).

Seeing as it's primary purpose is to hinder bullets from entering your torso and playing merry hob with your insides, I'd say it's working fairly well.

There's definitely room for improvement but it's heads and shoulders above the Empire's gear.

What is your point? I'm well aware of how effective it is from my own firsthand experiences treating wounded soldiers. My point was that it's a specialized form of protection (localized and dedicated to stopping ballistic penetration), not the one-rating-fits-all protection like we see in this game.

Corpsman or medic?

Point being is that I thought you were dismissing our body armor which is decent compared to the garbbo the Empire uses.