So I was thinking, with 400 points coming around the corner (October to December), what are your thoughts on getting more ships versus adding upgrades to existing ships.

So I know it was discussed over the Demolisher and the CR90 bit what about other ships.

What is your method?

It's hard to say without access to the wave 2 ships. We're still really only playing with half a game.

I'd definitely say more ships. At 300, I've been running a Victory-I and a Victory-II, with eight squadrons and various upgrades. Nothing fancy, but it does fairly well. With us going to 400 points, I'm thinking that I'll probably be changing out the Victory-II for an Imperial, and then add in a Raider. That's the loose idea I have going into this, but it really all depends on how the points all work out; i.e., how expensive is the Imperial, and how cheap is the Raider.

As an Imperial player, every ship is a fairly big outlay in points, so I find taking an extra ship over a few upgrades isn't an option.

I found my VSDs couldn't compete with assault frigates until I started adding a reasonable spread of upgrades to increase their effectiveness. Things like intel officer, turbo laser upgrades etc.

The major concerns are - am I better taking more squadrons over that extra upgrade, and am I sinking so many points into this VSD that its not ever going to be effective.

As an Imperial player, every ship is a fairly big outlay in points, so I find taking an extra ship over a few upgrades isn't an option.

I found my VSDs couldn't compete with assault frigates until I started adding a reasonable spread of upgrades to increase their effectiveness. Things like intel officer, turbo laser upgrades etc.

The major concerns are - am I better taking more squadrons over that extra upgrade, and am I sinking so many points into this VSD that its not ever going to be effective.

I'm sharing my opinion based on what I know for naval battles and from what I've read thus far.

Ultimately, Armada is still a naval game and I can't recall who, John Keegan or who ever, mentioned that naval battles are the sum of individual battles. Therefore theoretically speaking, despite what ever upgrades you cram onto your ship, it's still a numbers game.

Of the games I play with my sister, I cram almost every conceivable upgrades onto my ships and lost to her numerical superiority. It was only when I decided to go easy on the upgrades, I was able to make it hard for her to finish me. Oddly, my GSD lasted longer than my VSD for almost all the games.

I think that you are better off with more individual attacks then just increasing the number of dice attacking from existing ships. And this is strictly based off of how the defense mechanism works with Armada. Yes its awesome to roll 7 dice and have all of them come up as hits or crits, but all it takes is one brace token to half that.

I also think that explains why fighters are not overpowered as they have to move or shoot unless given a squadron command. It's not sexy to only do one damage at a time, but if you have 10 things doing one damage at time it adds up quick.

I agree with Stasy.

You have to balance quantity and quality.

Well that's the point if this discussion.

At what point us it better to trade an Assault Frigate Mark IIB with ECM's and XI7's for Nebulon-B or 2 CR90's?

What point is your limit?

As with anything... It depends. An extra ship or a super ship is worthless or priceless depending on how you use it.

For imperials I absolutely love a VSD2 w/ Screed, Warlord, Gunnery Team, and H9 Turbolasers. 134 points... 108 if ignore the commander, but ships melt if they come in range. This works because of synergy of the dice modification, the massive firing arc, and health of the ship. Of course this is useless and a waste if not used right to either melt ships, deny an area, or force an engagement with my pair of GSDs.

Course minimal upgrades work well to, some titles work by themselves... Salvation, Yavaris, Demolisher all work great by themselves, can be improved by further upgrades, but not necessary.

It also depends on what extra ship are you adding... Two corvettes are better than one with expanded armament, engine techs, dodonna pride, ECM, and Antilles. Where as an Assault Frigate B with gunnery team, expanded armament, and advanced projectors, might be better served with an adding intel team and an a wing vs removing all the upgrades to add a CR90B.

Building the fleet is only part of te game, thought the easiest to discuss... The other part is flying it.

I used to be a believer in upgrades over extra ships...

I've been converted to extra ships over upgrades after my win rate increased. Having extra ships means extra activations, more dice, most likely more table control and overall, more options (with an extra ship, you could have an extra platform for squadron commands that didn't exist without that ship), etc.

I find that extra ships works better for rebels than for the imperials as the rebels tend to throw less dice overall per ship when in optimum firing range so having more dice tossing items really helps wear down the defense tokens on the imperials which increases the likelihood of putting damage cards on targets.

A general rule in life is simple is always better then overly complicated.

Applied here two ships are better then 1 super beefy ship. Look at say 6 CR-90s or Neb taking on 2 VSDs that have a lot of junk in the trunk. The swarm really does hurt esp when the Rebels can get into rear arc really fast, even if you take down 1 there are a lot of dice coming back towards you, and the rebels will get 4 more ship movements before any sqauds take place. That and with a good objective card its tougher for the running 2 ships. When I look at x-wing and see lists like BBBBZ, tie swarm, biggs walks the dogs, it comes down to more ships over beefier ones.

I have no idea about wave 2 points but I am going to guess 6 raiders is going to be a thing and I am going to run it. I can't see them being over 60 points for the lower tier ships which would leave 40 points for a commander and maybe some ties

Something like this maby?

Why can't i hold all those unlimited Assault Concussion missle works?

1 • Gladiator I-class Star Destroyer - Admiral Screed - Assault Concussion Missiles - Demolisher (99)

2 • Raider - Assault Concussion Missiles (50?)

3 • Raider - Assault Concussion Missiles (50?)

4 • Raider - Assault Concussion Missiles (50?)

5 • Raider - Assault Concussion Missiles (50?)

6 • Raider - Assault Concussion Missiles (50?)

7 • TIE Interceptor Squadron (11)
8 • TIE Interceptor Squadron (11)
9 • TIE Interceptor Squadron (11)

10 • TIE Interceptor Squadron (11)

Its sick with Screed you are sure to do aminimum of a hit/crit + 2dmg from ACMs per ship.

Quality over quantity? Stalin once said, quantity has a quality all its own. Look what happened in WWII. I rather have more ships with minimal upgrades. Don't like putting all my eggs in one basket.

Something like this maby?

Why can't i hold all those unlimited Assault Concussion missle works?

1 • Gladiator I-class Star Destroyer - Admiral Screed - Assault Concussion Missiles - Demolisher (99)

2 • Raider - Assault Concussion Missiles (50?)

3 • Raider - Assault Concussion Missiles (50?)

4 • Raider - Assault Concussion Missiles (50?)

5 • Raider - Assault Concussion Missiles (50?)

6 • Raider - Assault Concussion Missiles (50?)

7 • TIE Interceptor Squadron (11)

8 • TIE Interceptor Squadron (11)

9 • TIE Interceptor Squadron (11)

10 • TIE Interceptor Squadron (11)

Its sick with Screed you are sure to do aminimum of a hit/crit + 2dmg from ACMs per ship.

Yup

I think one or two capital ships surrounded by bodies might be the way to go in 400 points. Your capital ships should then be able to tangle with any ship its size or maybe larger, while your smaller ships help with activation sequences and harrasing fire.

An example of this might be 2 Assault Frigates with ECM's and EA with Mon mothma and the rest of your 400 points is in CR90's with maybe an equal amount of X-wings.

Another example is Home One with the accuracy title and a redemption floating around nearby. The redemption keeps ties off of you with the 2 blue AA and provides a natural defensive buff to all ships at long range (and is only 65 points!), while home one is the tank that provides an offensive buff to all ships at long range.

Then once again fill your remaining points with CR90's to take advantage of your 2 aoe buff titles, with a sprinkle of A or X wings for support.

Balance. A swarm of ships is probably better than a decked-out super-ship, but a balanced force of well-equipped (to their role and point ratio) ships will fair well against both.

This is, coincidently, the same line of reasoning for squadrons.

It's easy to say that you'd rather have 2 of x than 1 of y but of course we're talking about upgrade cards spread over an entire list, and seeing it in the aggregate is difficult.

For the sake of example...

6 Neb Escorts naked versus 5 Neb Escorts + 57 points of upgrades.

Can you get more combat dice and hull points out of 57 points of upgrades? This would be terrible, but you could slap Enhanced Armaments on all 5 and net 5 red dice.

I think it's impossible to say definitively whether you're better off taking them or not. I do believe there are diminishing returns on buying an overabundance of anything in the game, though. In the above example, it's going to be very difficult to focus fire with six (or even five for that matter) Nebs.

there's a sliding scale in both X-wing and armada that deals with "upgrades versus more ships." In a balanced game, it depends entirely on the ship type.

Here's the scale: ship price efficiency on one end, durability on the other

efficient ships give you plenty of punch for their price; loading on upgrades skews their efficiency by adding a lot relative to their cost

the less efficient but harder to kill ships don't lose much efficiency (never were efficient to begin with) and are more durable, making it harder for you to lose your investment

exceptions abound, of course. Maybe you want to try OLP CR-90b to increase the damage output of all your ships on one target, or you'll want ECM on MM's cr-90 to keep her safe amongst the swarm

Efficient (relatively fragile; can run amazingly just naked but think carefully before upgrading)

CR-90 (least points for most dice, relative fragile)

Raider (probably similar to Cr-90?)

Mid-range (performs well with minimal upgrades, sometimes even naked)

Neb-B (not as efficient as CR-90, tough from the front but vulnerable from the sides; incredibly efficient offensive titles)

GSDs (better defensive spread than Neb-Bs, can be very devastating with just ACM and supported by skreed, provided you can work around just having close range)

Shrimp Frigate (??? not enough data)

Not efficient (hard to kill, loves upgrades)

Demolisher (hilariously inefficient with GSD stats and at least +10 points, but also hilariously difficult to kill 100% because of how much Demolisher opens up its maneuverability; hits like the same ton of bricks as a cheap GSD but also far more often)

Victory (most lopsided ship in the game and the least maneuverable. 6 dice out the front? Worth every penny . 3 dice out the side and 2 in the butt? even a cr-90 laughs at it! The VSD really loves upgrades that get around its Achilles heel such as going squadron support, VSD-2, or Warlord/Dominator)

Fattie (imo most difficult to kill ship in the game because of maneuverability, range, and arc distribution. For its asking cost, it hits like a wet noddle without upgrades; almost like a close range VSD with upgrades such as EA and intel officer and especially paragon)

MC-80 (and fat, probably expensive, upgrade slots up the bum)

ISD (jesus christ just look at all the upgrade slots on the cards that's included with it; just look at all that hull + shields )

now the question as to "how many upgrades?" on the upgrade loving ships really depends on what you want out of them. On my VSDs, I just run 2 (hangar + FC; or VSD-2 + dominator) but on my fatties I like Int + EA + ECM + title.

Ficklegreendice and DrunkinTarkin are both on the money I think for this topic. Hmmmm

You need to find that sweet, sweet balance. Too many upgrades on one ship and your fleet will suffer when that single ship goes down. Too little upgrades on ships and they may not perform optimally.

This discussion is difficult because of the many ways you can play this game. Some people like to play with as many squadrons as they can get. Some play with maybe 50-75% of max points for squadrons. Some don't bother with squadrons at all. With that 3 distinctions alone, what works for one may clearly not work with another.

Then there's the aggression factor --- some people like to joust, some people like to flank, some people like to bluff, while others are just content to slow-boat their ships.

A balance for my playstyle might not work with your playstyle, even if we're flying the same ships.

On my current builds, upping the limit to 400 points means I'll be adding a ship with upgrades. If I have any extra points left over after that, then my current ships can get more bling.