So I've played this game for awhile now and while I'm no expert on rules I do have a pretty good understanding of everything. So the other night was playing with some newbies and for my example I'll use an awing vs a tie fighter. So player A is in control of the awing and player B the tie fighter. Now my question is about when the defender "actually" rolls his dice. What I mean by that is, the rules state you roll attack dice, defender modifies, attacker modifies, defense dice are rolled, attacker modifies, defender modifies, compare results. Now with some of the rule explanations in the rulebook we all know some things aren't exactly explained well, ex. Dice comparisons. Anyways the way I've always played and even at tournaments I've played this is how it is done. The attacker rolls and almost immediately after the defender rolls then the attack dice modify first aka focus or TL then the defense dice are modified. Now the issue came up with player A rolling a hit and blank and right after that, player B rolls his 3 defense dice all evades. Player A says "I wanted to spend my TL" I said "you still can so go ahead" player A says " but his defense roll shouldn't count because he rolled before I modified my attack dice" I said " he would have rolled either way I really don't think he needs to reroll" player A says " according to the rules we are supposed to modify the attack dice first before he rolls". Reading the rules the defense dice are stated as rolling after the attack dice are modified. So technically he is correct but I really don't see this as being unfair imo, if anything the attacker is getting the benefit by seeing the results first before deciding. Per rules tho I'm pretty sure it's supposed to happen this way. Is this something you have seen enforced at larger tournaments aka nationals or higher? Or is it something that even comes up at all? Just curious. Also how do you play usually? With the defender rolling right after the attacker and then modifying in order?

Defender should always make sure the attack roll is complete before rolling. Only way I have ever seen anyone play it.

I have seen people occasionally jump the gun because they forgot about a modification the attack can make or some such. Generally, that gets left up to the player who didn't make the mistake to decide whether they reroll or what not.

Once defense dice are rolled, the attack dice can no longer be modified. The defender needs to allow the attacker time to decide if they are going to modify their attack or not.

Once defense dice are rolled, the attack dice can no longer be modified. The defender needs to allow the attacker time to decide if they are going to modify their attack or not.

Basically the reasoning I'm seeing as to why the attacker has to modify before defense is rolled is so that he can't see what defense dice results are rolled before making his choices. So if the defender wants to roll right after its really only giving the attacker the benefit.

Once defense dice are rolled, the attack dice can no longer be modified. The defender needs to allow the attacker time to decide if they are going to modify their attack or not.

Ok so another question then, can someone roll their defense dice in a cup, shake them and and then put them down on the table with the cup hiding he results? Then once the attacker makes his choices reveal your results?

Basically the reasoning I'm seeing as to why the attacker has to modify before defense is rolled is so that he can't see what defense dice results are rolled before making his choices. So if the defender wants to roll right after its really only giving the attacker the benefit.

No, you can't. You can't roll defense dice before the Modify Attack Dice step is completed.

The way things have always worked in my experience goes like this:

1. Attacker rolls dice <hit, blank, focus>

2. Defender waits a second and says something like "so one hit?"

3. Attacker either says "yup" or "hang on, I'm going to modify" and then modifies

4. Defender rolls

The way things have always worked in my experience goes like this:

1. Attacker rolls dice <hit, blank, focus>

2. Defender waits a second and says something like "so one hit?"

3. Attacker either says "yup" or "hang on, I'm going to modify" and then modifies

4. Defender rolls

Ok gotcha, well next time I'll have to make sure and play it like that. We usually play pretty casual even with tourneys so maybe that's why, I've never had anyone bring it up before. But from now on will have to play it like it says.

It may seem overly nit-picky to insist that all of the steps are followed exactly as written in the order that they are presented but there are a lot of upgrades and abilities that seem to be either confusing, pointless, or overpowered if you don't.

"Do what the card says. Don't do what the card doesn't say" only really works if all of the other game processes are being followed.

Once defense dice are rolled, the attack dice can no longer be modified. The defender needs to allow the attacker time to decide if they are going to modify their attack or not.

Ok so another question then, can someone roll their defense dice in a cup, shake them and and then put them down on the table with the cup hiding he results? Then once the attacker makes his choices reveal your results?

Basically the reasoning I'm seeing as to why the attacker has to modify before defense is rolled is so that he can't see what defense dice results are rolled before making his choices. So if the defender wants to roll right after its really only giving the attacker the benefit.

This is exactly why the attack sequence must be followed step-by-step. The attacker rolls, the defender gets to use anything he has that might modify the attack dice, then the attacker gets to modify. This may involve using an ability, a target lock or focus token, that may or may not help, but that's the gamble the attacker must take before the defender gets to respond with his roll. It is specifically designed to force the attacker to make those decisions: "Should I use the target lock reroll or not? Should I use the focus token or not?"

If the attacker rolls a 4 dice attack and gets 1 boom and 3 focus results, then the defender immediately rolls a handful of blanks before the attacker modifies, the attacker isn't likely to use his focus token, and can then save it for later in the round.

But, because the attacker must modify and finalise his roll before the defender gets to roll, he's more like to use that focus token.

The Defender should not roll before the Attack dice modifications are finished.

If rolled too early there should still be the opportunity to modify the attack dice but if the defender jumps the gun then the attacker will have extra information before deciding on the what modifications to make; if I know the defender is going to cancel may attack no matter what I get why would I waste a TL rerolling or the a focus token.

If the defender jumps the gun then that roll is null and void and the defender rerolls. If the defender didn't jump the gun and the attacker forgot to apply something then too bad so sad. You get what you get and you don't throw a fit.

The Defender should not roll before the Attack dice modifications are finished.

If rolled too early there should still be the opportunity to modify the attack dice but if the defender jumps the gun then the attacker will have extra information before deciding on the what modifications to make; if I know the defender is going to cancel may attack no matter what I get why would I waste a TL rerolling or the a focus token.

This. You shouldn't be jumping the gun. If you do, it only helps your opponent.

Declaring the defense roll null leads to a shady area where the defender could potentially 'choose' to reroll all of his dice depending on the 'interpretation' of if the roll was valid or not.

If the defender jumps the gun then that roll is null and void and the defender rerolls.

It doesn't have to work that way, and I'm not sure it should. Because the whole point of waiting to roll defense dice after all attack dice modifications is so the attacker has limited information.

No reason to spend a focus if the defender rolls enough evades to block everything. Or may even want to save the focus if 2 <hits> will get though because the defender rolled blanks.

The only person hurt by the defender jumping the gun is the defender. So IMO if someone rolls defense dice too soon, the most fitting 'punishment' is letting the attacker make decisions based on that information.

Ideally of course the Defender will wait, because again that is in their best interest, and that's the way the rules should work.

If the defender jumps the gun then that roll is null and void and the defender rerolls.

It doesn't have to work that way, and I'm not sure it should. Because the whole point of waiting to roll defense dice after all attack dice modifications is so the attacker has limited information.

Right, and that limited information is part of the game. There's no reason to leave that information revealed due to a mistake, when making the information hidden again is as simple as picking the dice back up to reroll at the appropriate time. And I think it's especially important not to go with the "mistakes should be punished" philosophy when it's a mistake that's going to be made almost exclusively by newer players.

There's no reason to leave that information revealed due to a mistake

Sure there is, you rolled your dice too soon, so I get take advantage of your mistake. No different then taking advantage of it when someone attempts a red maneuver when they're stressed.

And I think it's especially important not to go with the "mistakes should be punished" philosophy when it's a mistake that's going to be made almost exclusively by newer players.

If you're teaching someone how to play, or they are really new, then do what seems appropriate at the time. Maybe having them suffer the consequences of their mistake, will help them remember. Especially if you've already explained why they should wait.

The rules are mute on this subject, they don't say what should happen, so it's up to the people playing to sort it out. A reroll in this case isn't actually going to matter, any more then any other reroll will, statically it's a new roll.

But that doesn't mean someone should be let off for making the same mistake over and over again.

If the defender jumps the gun then that roll is null and void and the defender rerolls.

It doesn't have to work that way, and I'm not sure it should. Because the whole point of waiting to roll defense dice after all attack dice modifications is so the attacker has limited information.

Right, and that limited information is part of the game. There's no reason to leave that information revealed due to a mistake, when making the information hidden again is as simple as picking the dice back up to reroll at the appropriate time. And I think it's especially important not to go with the "mistakes should be punished" philosophy when it's a mistake that's going to be made almost exclusively by newer players.

Honestly, it's all a context thing and needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis. If it's an honest mistake by a new player, I'd tell them how it's supposed to work and let them reroll. If they persist in doing it after being told not to I'd just roll with it and take the advantage they are giving me. At a tournament I'd probably call a TO over.

Statistically, having the defense rerolled may be the same but that's only if it is always applied. Even so I'm not sure I would as it the brings in all kinds of potential mind games. What happens if you roll your attack, pause, I roll my defense thinking you're done, and THEN you decide you want to make modifications to your attack just to force me to reroll my defense?

An example: the attacker rolls four dice getting three good results and a focus while holding a focus token. Quietly figures that the tokenless target that only needs to take one more card to die which 3 defense should not stop and very passively does nothing to stop defender from rolling; he wants to save the Focus for defense. A miracle occurs and the defender gets three evade results on three dice so now the attack screams "I wasn't done modifying my attack!" This is leading to all kinds of potential issues with timing problems and assuming that things are done when they may not be.

I roll my defense thinking you're done, and THEN you decide you want to make modifications to your attack just to force me to reroll my defense?

That's still on the defending player. The defender really should make sure that the attacker doesn't want to modify their dice before rolling their own.

If the attacker has a TL or Focus token to use, then it's really up to the defender to either wait until the attacker says they're done, or ask before rolling.

Of course if I see the defender pick up his dice, or start to shake them I'll say 'I'm not done yet', but that's kinda a courtesy on my part. The defender should wait until they're sure I'm done, not assume I'm done because I haven't done anything yet.

Of course if I say i'm done and you roll your dice, at that point it's too late for me to make changes.

Although I would agree it needs to be dealt with the same way every time. If it's decided you should reroll, then both players should always reroll, the same as you would if someone rolls too many dice. It has to be consistent.

There's no reason to leave that information revealed due to a mistake

Sure there is, you rolled your dice too soon, so I get take advantage of your mistake. No different then taking advantage of it when someone attempts a red maneuver when they're stressed.

The fact that a mistake was made isn't a justification for taking advantage of the mistake. If your opponent doesn't roll an extra defense die at range 3, do you get to take advantage of that mistake? No, you get them to correct it, because the rules say they get an extra die. Similarly, the rules say that the attacker's dice must be modified before the defender rolls. If they roll early, you get them to correct it by rerolling at the appropriate step.

There's an important difference between this case and revealing a red maneuver while stressed: there's no fair way to correct the latter mistake without punishing the player who made it. You can't allow them to complete the maneuver, because it's an illegal move. You can't allow them to choose a new maneuver themselves, because they have extra information they shouldn't have. The most fair option, in this case, is to let the opponent decide the maneuver. That mistake is punished because the alternatives are even less fair.

In the case of rolling early, correcting the mistake is simple and painless. Pick up the dice, roll them again when it's your turn. Nothing changes statistically. It's perfectly fair for both players. Why add in a punishment (which subverts an important part of the game) for a mistake that doesn't affect the game state and is so easy to undo?

The rules are mute on this subject, they don't say what should happen, so it's up to the people playing to sort it out. A reroll in this case isn't actually going to matter, any more then any other reroll will, statically it's a new roll.

Exactly. Rerolling won't affect the game. Locking them into their early defense roll while you decide whether to spend your tokens will. Why not pick the solution that keeps the game running as it's meant to be played?

But that doesn't mean someone should be let off for making the same mistake over and over again.

Okay, fine. If your opponent insists on repeatedly ignoring a rule when it is purely to their detriment to ignore it, then all right. You can teach them a lesson.

Or you could tell them, "Just hold on to your dice. I'll tell you when it's your turn to roll them." Or you could just look at your own dice, and not look up at their result when they roll early for the fifteenth time.

I guess I still just don't see the point in making it a punishment.

The fact that a mistake was made isn't a justification for taking advantage of the mistake.

The fact that we're playing a competitive game is all the justification I need to take advantage of any mistake you make. That doesn't mean I will, but I don't need any further justification to do so. This of course is assuming I'm playing a competitive game and not a teaching game.

By the rules, once the defender has rolled their dice the attacker has missed their opportunity to modify dice. If the defender allows the attacker to modify the red dice after the defense dice have been rolled they are consenting to allowing the attacker to do something that was a missed opportunity.

If think that the defender rolling their dice as soon as the attack dice are rolled is an example of:

"Players are expected to act with respect and not intentionally distract or rush an opponent with the intent of forcing a missed opportunity"

It doesn't matter how you decide to work things out as the attacker, if you are allowing the defender to roll his dice before you've modified them you are giving them the power to tell you that they won't permit you to modify particular rolls. In a tournament, I'd let it slide once and ask them to stop. If it happens a second time, I'm calling a TO.

Once the TO is aware of the situation I'll be happy to take advantage of knowing the results of their greens before I decide to modify.

That being said, if I 'm playing with a friend for ***** and giggles I really wouldn't care.

The fact that a mistake was made isn't a justification for taking advantage of the mistake.

The fact that we're playing a competitive game is all the justification I need to take advantage of any mistake you make. That doesn't mean I will, but I don't need any further justification to do so. This of course is assuming I'm playing a competitive game and not a teaching game.

And there's no distinction between tactical mistakes and rules mistakes?

Please understand that I'm not saying this as a moral judgement, but if you're forcing your opponent to keep an early defense roll, and making strategic decisions based on that information, then you're cheating. You're giving yourself an advantage that the rules don't allow you to have. It doesn't matter if it was your opponent's mistake that allowed you to take that advantage, it's still against the rules.

That being said, if I 'm playing with a friend for ***** and giggles I really wouldn't care.

I've had had it happen on league night and the way we dealt with it was 'cover those dice so I don't see them.'