I'm new to the forum and a relatively new player of X-Wing but an old gamer passing on the tradition to my kids. Before I cover the topic at hand, this is by far one of the top two games I've ever played. The simplicity of play is genius and the nuances that emerge show a true gaming forging mastery. Thank you for the work you've put into this game and that which you'll continue to put into it in the years to come. Love the miniatures and accessories as well. But on to business.

This is really for the developers but I certainly welcome thoughtful comments from both sides of what will likely be an interesting discussion.

During gameplay, I've noticed what I think is an innocent oversight when implementing the effects of ion weapons. I've affectionately called this oversight Ion Effect Delay (IED) since I spent quite a bit of time in Iraq and Afthanistan haha. When a higher skilled pilot successfully ionizes a lower skilled pilot, the hit ship is assigned an ion token with no consequences taking effect until the planning phase of the following turn. I believe this is the oversight as the ion effects should take effect immediately (like a ship destruction) preventing them from doing anything for the remainder of that turn. As it currently stands, a token is assigned and the effects deferred until next turn. I humbly recommend a change to the rules and here is why.

1. The IED contradicts the immediate combat effect rule laid out in the basic rules.

2. The IED contradicts the canon example seen in episode V as well as numerous novels and some other computer games.

3. The IED just doesn't make sense. Does it make sense for a ship to be ionized but continue to function normally until later in the game? If a ship is destroyed, that effect happens immediately (with some exceptions and the simultaneous effects rule) and all of its abilities go away. If a ship is ionized by a higher skilled pilot, should they be able to counter-attack? Spend a token? Perform a combat triggered action? Enable a complimentary action for a wingman? Use an astromech capability? Didn't everything just get shutdown; flight controls, engines, sensors, weapons, communications, navigation?

I've been taught not to point out a problem without having a solution so I recommend an errata to the ion token be released with the next FAQ. I recommend it say something similar to the following:

When a ship is ionized (a small ship receives one ion token or a large ship receives two ion tokens) the effects occur immediately. For the remainder of the turn in which a ship is ionized it may not move, perform actions, conduct attacks, spend tokens, or activate complimentary traits/skills (e.g. Squad Leader). During the Planning Phase of the next turn the player ...

The rest of the rule follows the ion token rules already laid out.

I know this will be contentious as a great many people are naturally disposed to resist change. I also think it's fair to let everyone know that I own stock in Kuat Drive Yards, Sienar Systems, Galactic Ion Solutions et. al. corporations that produce ion weapons so I stand to become filthy rich when everyone ramps up their use of ion weapons in their builds ;-). Seriously, I doubt his will upset the game balance as the ion weapons still have to land a hit (i.e. roll the dice) in order to work. The rule change will fill that big gap between ionization and the beginning of the next turn.

FF Game developers, thanks for taking the time to objectively consider this potential change. I love the game and will keep playing regardless. I firmly believe this small change will provide an exciting tweak and add more nuance to an already great game. May the Force be with you :-)

Interesting idea but for balance issues I wonder how well it would work

Would make ion more interesting, but maybe to harsh

Who knows maybe originally it was play tested and found it was too extreme

I think ( as Krynn eluded to above) that the effects you propose, whilst probably more accurate to the movies/story line, would be overpowered.

would there be any reason not to take an ion cannon on your highest PS ships if by simply landing a damage on your opponent it prevented them from attacking you? that would be a very powerful effect that currently is restricted to one specific critical effect in the damage deck.

I agree that to some people the ion effect feels underwhelming, however it is still quite viable as it is, and I would go as far to say that giving the ion effect additional benefits would make it borderline too strong.

The soon to be release Connor net does do something similar, and I expect to see it put to use in some capacity in the future.

Excellent points. So, perhaps for balance's sake, have the damage only apply to shields not hull. That way, ion weapons become less of an advantage once the shields are taken out. It would also then prevent someone from destroying an opponent with ion hits only (how does an ion weapon disassemble a vessel anyway?). And there is always the roll of the dice, i.e. no hit is guaranteed.

However, neither of you addressed the first point: all combat effects are immediate except for ion hits which do nothing until the start of the next turn. And no, you cannot use the answer, "Well, that's the way it's laid out in the rules." :-) because the rules don't really cover that period of time. Otherwise, there would be no discussion and I'd have no cool IED acronym. ;-)

Oooh, think of this, a successful ion hit on a Phantom would cause it to decloak. I'm telling you, the change would make for a totally different twist to the game. Will anyone play test this in a friendly match and let me know what you think? I've had a few gos and while it saved a few ships from being hit, in the end, the dice have been a good equalizer. Maybe I'm just unlucky in rolling haha.

What about a PS0 pilot? He shoots last and the dice gods smile on his feeble attack on a PS11. He rolls 1 hit vs 5 blanks from the defender. The round is over. What happens to the PS11 pilot?

What about a PS0 pilot? He shoots last and the dice gods smile on his feeble attack on a PS11. He rolls 1 hit vs 5 blanks from the defender. The round is over. What happens to the PS11 pilot?

It's a rhetorical question, I know, but I'll answer it then ask some more.

The same thing that would've happened if PS0 blew PS11 from the stars. PS11 got his jabs in and now must take his lumps. But reverse that, PS11 gets an ion hit on PS0 first thing in the combat phase. Now, should PS0 get to romp around for the rest of the turn returning fire, evading fire, or using a free boost? Or, should he actually be dealing with his shut down spaceship? Are combat effects really immediate or are they just immediate when you blow someone up and all other dire consequences are deferred?

So far, all I'm seeing as a counter to my question/issue is either 1. that's the way we've always done it or 2. it would make the game unbalanced. No one is addressing the immediate combat effects issue and why ion weapons' effects lag. I'm surprised that no one has brought this up before. Or has it been brought up and everyone just shrugged their shoulders and said, "meh."? It just doesn't pass the common sense test to have a combat effect completely ignored until the next turn.

No one is addressing the immediate combat effects issue and why ion weapons' effects lag.

Because they don't, it's just that in a game you can't have everything happening at once, there has to be structure. A round in x-wing is probably no more than a seconds worth of "real time". When pilots fire their weapons (including ion weapons), they are doing so at some point during their movement and their targets are getting hit at some point during theirs. It's all meant to be happening simultaneously, it's just that rules conventions like ion tokens taking effect next planning phase but ships being destroyed immediately are just abstractions to make a simple, playable game. Ioning someone in the game cause their next move to be 1-straight. Simple, straightforward. No one has addressed it because it isn't a problem.

There is soon to be a problem however. Until wave 7 it was not possible to ion a ship before it moves in a round, which meant that the ion token effected a ship the very first time it moves after being ioned. When Conner nets and ion bombs come out it will be possible to ion a ship before it moves that round, and that is going to create a timing problem.

Not necessarily. We've had a similar discussion about the delayed effect of an ion attack and it still hangs over to the following planning phase. So if you get ionized before revealing your dial, it still has no effect until the next turn.

However, what WGNF911 is proposing seems to me to be very harsh. If the ship can't do ANYTHING after being ionized, it becomes too much of a sitting duck, and even the fluff doesn't support that. I played X-wing vs TIE Fighter a lot on the PC and when you got hit by an ion weapon, it was pretty alarming, but you didn't stop dead in space. You at least kept moving at whatever speed you were doing. You just couldn't maneuver. Plus other fluff references have ion weapons ignoring shields altogether. So finding a balance of where the damage should be applied is still required; shields or hull or both.

I'm not sure about it making the game unbalanced or not, but if you take an ion weapon, it does look like you're bringing a gun to a knife fight. As Forgottenlore said, the game turn represents a lot of things happening in the space of seconds of real time. The current structure handles it adequately without penalising the victim too much.

One of my pet hates is the inclusion of asteroids in every game. It makes the game interesting when you have to fly in and around asteroids, but how many space battles did we see in the movies that were fought in an asteroid field? If there were that many asteroids floating around in space, you wouldn't have a chance of surviving any kind of space travel.

There are many things within the game that don't seem to make much sense when you try and use "fluff logic". When designing a game you can only base so much on fluff before some things will become overpowered or underpowered. So sometimes the fluff has to be ignored in order to keep the game flowing, and this is one of those cases.

What about a PS0 pilot? He shoots last and the dice gods smile on his feeble attack on a PS11. He rolls 1 hit vs 5 blanks from the defender. The round is over. What happens to the PS11 pilot?

It's a rhetorical question, I know, but I'll answer it then ask some more.

The same thing that would've happened if PS0 blew PS11 from the stars. PS11 got his jabs in and now must take his lumps. But reverse that, PS11 gets an ion hit on PS0 first thing in the combat phase. Now, should PS0 get to romp around for the rest of the turn returning fire, evading fire, or using a free boost? Or, should he actually be dealing with his shut down spaceship? Are combat effects really immediate or are they just immediate when you blow someone up and all other dire consequences are deferred?

So far, all I'm seeing as a counter to my question/issue is either 1. that's the way we've always done it or 2. it would make the game unbalanced. No one is addressing the immediate combat effects issue and why ion weapons' effects lag. I'm surprised that no one has brought this up before. Or has it been brought up and everyone just shrugged their shoulders and said, "meh."? It just doesn't pass the common sense test to have a combat effect completely ignored until the next turn.

Sometimes implementing the common sense test just doesn't make sense. This is a game that mimics certain aspects of space combat. Trying to make it so everything in it passes the Logic Test will destroy the game.

Edited for word omissions.

To be honest, better or not, it won't happen.

FFG has a policy of not making drastic change the the rules if they can avoid it. Completely reworking the ion rules is not going to happen.

Myself I think your changes would be fairly OP'ed. Being able to shut down every ship a player has for the rest of the game would not make for a more enjoyable game.

Because if I have 4 ships with Ion's, I can not only prevent up to 4 of the other guys ships from doing anything this round, they can only make a 1 straight next turn, so I know exactly where they will be, meaning it will be fairly easy to shoot them again next round.

It wouldn't be that hard to set up a game where the non-ion player does nothing but move his ships 1 forward until they're all dead, and do nothing else the whole game.

Now this is a good discussion! I appreciate the great input.

According to VanorDM, this might all be academic, however, he did say, "…if they can avoid it." Forgottenlore has great points and I've thought of the ion bomb issue also. So, perhaps the ion weapon effects are too strong.

Parravon brought up a good point (I loved that game) about inertia. Perhaps, the ionized ship does a straight maneuver that corresponds with the speed of the last maneuver. For example, if the ionized ship did a left bank 3 this turn, after being ionized, it is then forced to do a straight 3 in the next planning/activation phase.

I also completely understand the give and take translating real time to game time and vice versa. I've been playing games for more than 2 decades (off and on) and had numerous dicussions about what can/should happen in a 6 month equivalent game turn.

But, high PS cards will always be a hot commodity. Shooting first with immediate effects makes this worth the points. Like Nathan Bedford Forrest said, "Get there first with the most."

So, what would you "graybeards" change regarding ion weapons? This is a free-thinking exercise, so yes, you have to change them, at a minimum, to align with the immediate combat effects rule/principle. This is a hypothetical, so you have free reign to make any changes. Don't let what FFG will or won't do affect your answer.

Here's my take: Ion effects occur immediately and follow the simultaneous attack rules. When a ion attack successfully hits, that ship receives an ion token and one shield is removed. All other hit results (regular and critical) are ignored and if there are no shield tokens, no damage is received (no effects on the hull). When a ship is ionized (1 token for small, 2 token for large) it may not maneuver, perform actions, spend tokens, perform combat, or activate pilot traits against either friendly or enemy ships. The affected ship's agility is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 0) and any ship that is cloaked is forced to decloak and loses its cloak token. During the next turn's planning phase, the player with the affected ship selects a straight maneuver that is the same speed as the last maneuver performed (see above). After the affected ship is maneuvered its ion token(s) is removed and it may perform actions and combat as normal.

I'm going to try the decimator ywing scenario and ensure there are plenty of asteroids haha. I really do appreciate the thoughtful input and enjoy reasoned "what-ifs" to possibly make an already great game a little better or at least more interesting. Even if it is a long shot.

WGNF911,

Let us know how the Ys vs Decimator scenario plays out. I think it's going to get ridden off the board.

I like your thought process. I do agree with the others that as presented the results are too harsh. Movement via inertia will be a must. The game doesn't need another space rock even if it's made of metal.

I think agility should be reduced to '0' following your logic. I assume defense dice, as presented in the game, are based on size, speed and agility. Unable to maneuver at all after being ioned only size and speed have an effect on the attacker's ability to hit the target. Moving in a straight line is no defense and I would think size alone would provide little hindrance to taking a shot. Literally nothing happens while the systems reboot so no maneuvering thrusters. Attack dice could be modified based on the ioned ship's agility compared to the attacker's. Adding dice to adjust for the target being ioned.

I don't know if such a large change to the game mechanics is possible or advised. The game plays well as it stands.

Edited for spelling

If I were to make a change to ion's, I think something Stoneface said would be interesting. Reduce the agl of an ionized ship to 0 for as long as it has a (or 2 for large ships) ion token.

Or perhaps it couldn't spend tokens while it had an ion token. But much more then one effect would be OP'ed in my opinion

Yes, I started off thinking it wouldn't be that big a change, but the more of the scab you scratch off, the more it bleeds.

I'm racking my brain for what OP stands for; can you help me out VandorDM?

I'm racking my brain for what OP stands for; can you help me out VandorDM?

In this case it stands for Over Powered.

Your plan is bad for game balance. You're not proposing a timing change to prevent a delayed effect; you're proposing a drastically nastier effect for ion weapons.

So, what would you "graybeards" change regarding ion weapons? This is a free-thinking exercise, so yes, you have to change them...

No, I don't. I like the ion rules: they're flavorful and effective without being intricate or overpowering.

I'm racking my brain for what OP stands for;

Depending on context it can mean

Over powered

Original post

Original poster

As vanor said, in this case, over powered.

Thanks for that.

Here's a quick summary on y's vs VT: 75 pnts each side

Imp- Adm Chiraneau, dauntless, eng upgrade, Mara Jade, Y. Isard, Lone Wolf, recon Specialist (was worthless), ion torps, proton bomb

Reb- Dutch V, R2D2, ion cannon turret, 2xproton torps; gray sqdn, r2f2, ion cannon turret, 2xproton torps

BLUF: VT won with 6 damage to hull. Once one y-wing was down, the VT's turrets ruled.

At the initial head-2-head, VT took out one shield on DV while both Ys landed ion hits. Next round, Ys both landed solid hits taking out all shields and landing several hull hits with a couple of minor crits. Now, all 3 ships are starting to overlap each other or asteroids every turn. Close proximity also brought Mara Jade into play while YI was giving an evade token each round. The Ys were never able to get another combined two ion tokens on VT. Then the Ys split up because of accrued stress and avoiding obstacles and VT followed Gray SP picking him off. When DV and VT met again h2h, VT zapped DV with ion torps causing DV to miss an opportunity to use his last proton torpedo. Next turn, VT and DV overlap (DV doing a straight 3 due to ion effects and VT cuz it's so dang big) so no shooting but Mara Jade stresses DV preventing red maneuvers next turn. DV and VT separate to range 3 now tail-to-tail and VT lands on hit and two crits. DV has one shield and 3 hull left and one of the crits is a direct hit thereby spacing DV.

I must admit, after the first 2 turns I thought the VT would be a goner but when the VT was able to stay close and cause overlaps and stress (taking an ion turret out of action and further reducing the Ys maneuver) it was only a matter of time until Ys were reduced. And yes, I did modify the ion effects but it's only one game.

VT vs Ys round 2. Same setup but the asteroids were gone and recon spc was replaced with weapons engineer.

The Rebs set up int the middle while the imp offset to his right side of the board. As they approached, the Ys did a 2&3 turn into the VT while the VT did a hard 3 into the Ys so that gray was at range 2 and DV was at range 1. With a target lock, the VT shot the ion torp at gray and successfully ionized both Ys. Neither of them returned fire and ended up coasting by with a straight 2 & straight 3 next turn. It was a wash, however as the imps had no wingman to take advantage of the disabled Rebs, AND, the ion torps inflict no damage, only give a token. Next turn, VT stays close and lands heavy hits on gray taking out his shields. The Ys tried to ionize the VT but rolled poorly and only got one token to stick. Although the Ys did a better job of sticking together, they were never able to land two ion hits in the same turn. Gray was spaced in the next few turns and DV spent the rest of the game trying to alternate between green maneuvers (to get shields back) and trying to land hits on the VT. Of course from then on, ion cannon turrets were no longer a factor.

So, this obviously doesn't prove anything except VT vs Ys depends on who the VT is carrying. A stock VT would be virtually worthless … well maybe. I am seeing that ionizing a large ship is problematic and requires 2+ ion capable ships. But really you need more hardcore shooter than that to really take advantage of the disabled ships.

Now it's time to see how this works with fighters. I'm thinking the Ys vs Fel and a couple of wingmen. Then maybe a defender vs a Y. Then a defender vs an E or A. The smaller ships will really suffer the ion effects more.

Why would they need to land two hits in the same round? Or am I missing something?

Until wave 7 it was not possible to ion a ship before it moves in a round, which meant that the ion token effected a ship the very first time it moves after being ioned.

Leebo crew on a ship with either Advanced Sensors or on a ship that's getting an action from Lando before it moves has been possible since Wave 5.

Leebo crew on a ship with either Advanced Sensors or on a ship that's getting an action from Lando before it moves has been possible since Wave 5.

Yeah, I meant to indicate "target ship". Leebo ions himself, which avoids some of the timing issues.

Why would they need to land two hits in the same round? Or am I missing something?

Large ships have to have two ion tokens in order to be affected. Those ion tokens (no matter the number) are removed in the next turn's activation phase after the affected ship performs its maneuver. So, if a large ship had one ion token at the end of combat, it retains it until it performs its next maneuver and before its action.

Those ion tokens (no matter the number) are removed in the next turn's activation phase after the affected ship performs its maneuver.

This is part of your home brew modifications, yes? You are aware that in the actual FFG rules ion tokens stay until the ship suffers the ion effect, right?

Those ion tokens (no matter the number) are removed in the next turn's activation phase after the affected ship performs its maneuver.

This is part of your home brew modifications, yes? You are aware that in the actual FFG rules ion tokens stay until the ship suffers the ion effect, right?

No, not the home brew haha. I'm applying the ion token rules and the large ship ion effects add on in the FAQ. Primarily, the ion token rule Activation Phase paragraph stating when to remove an ion token. I have been playing regularly under the interpretation that a large ship would bleed off ion tokens like a regular ship, i.e. all the ion tokens go away at the end of the activation phase.

So, I can see now why the dominant opinion is that ion weapons are OPd with my "home brew". How is it then that a large ship can get rid of two ion tokens but can't get rid of one? Am I missing a clarification in the FAQ? I will admit that I haven't read the tourney rules (haven't had a need to); is there something in there? Assuming you're going to show me the answer, I'd say ion weapons under this interpretation are OPd already. Things that make you hmmmm.