On a side note just to let people know that not everyones mind goes to the worst possible idea of word. I tend to think analyticaly when I read, I thought fellow nerds would too.

The term retard and retarded are mechanical terms use to describe something that is or needs to be in the negative or backwards. This kind of a lose interpretation but gets the mechanical idea across. So used in this context the term is saying the x1 tital taking a step back.

Now I'm not saying the word was used here with that intent, but what I can say is that people all jumped to the worst possible use for the word.

Maybe we as a society are to blame here for letting our minds and our language be hijacked for use for other people's ideals.

I don't think it's a case "that people all jumped to the worst possible use for the word"; I think everyone's mind went to what was actually intended by the writer. I don't think that implies anything bad about the people interpreting it that way, that simply knew what he meant and disapproved.

Seriously, can this thread just die already?

Or at least get back to topic. I'd love to discuss the possibilities of the TIE Advanced title. Not so excited about the semantics discussion, though.

Seriously, can this thread just die already?

Or at least get back to topic. I'd love to discuss the possibilities of the TIE Advanced title. Not so excited about the semantics discussion, though.

If you search the forums you'll find likely dozens of old posts about this. This whole thread struck me as hilarious because it's so late. Sure the raider isn't out yet, but most of the meat of the title has been long discussed since its been known for so long. There's even nicknames for the 4 tempest + accuracy corrector list(s) already.

Maybe the developers decided that 5 Prototype Pilots with Proton Rockets, Chardan Refit, and Munitions Fail-safe for only 95 points was too overpowered, so they made is a choice of which to you want to equip to the missile slot.

The Tie Advanced, as others mentioned, was almost never used, and when it was it was Vader. When new players asked what they should get, one of the first things they'd be told was not to get the Advanced, unless they were just really into Darth Vader. This left the empire short one ship.

To be fair though, who's into Star Wars but isn't really into Darth Vader?

I practice force choking people all the time, one day ill figure it out.

Force Choke lacks subtlety. It's all about knocking objects onto peoples heads using Force Push, or using Mind Trick to persuade them to jump off the balcony.

I prefer squishing peoples heads, a la Kids in the Hall. It's more rewarding.

Remember the Jedi Outcast game? My favorite move was to force grip people over a ledge and drop them. And then we made up our own force power, force grope. Then our LAN parties got weird.

I'm not completely convinced that the title will bring the TIE Advanced into competitive play. It makes it immensely better, but is it enough?

Try playing a TA with Accuracy Corrector and Cluster Missile. Then tell me you don't think the X1 title will bring the TA into competitive play.

I'm already planning out my all TA lists and have test run a few of them. I'm excited for what the X1 title will do for the Defender as well! The TA and the Defender are going to be best friends!

The Advanced does get compared to the X-wing though. The game's namesake needs some love. I haven't seen one in play in months! The Advanced fix (long over due) has me excited about what FFG might do with ships like the Defender, E-wing, and X-wing in the future. This was a well thought out, thematic fix.

Just wondering... Is/was there any ship that didn't need a fix/buff?

Is/was there any ship that didn't need a fix/buff?

B-Wings don't really. Tie Fighters are good as is. YT-1300's didn't really need a buff. Shuttle are good as is.

Just wondering... Is/was there any ship that didn't need a fix/buff?

TIE fighter

Y-wing

Firespray-31

YT-1300

TIE interceptor

TIE bomber

B-wing

Lambda Shuttle

TIE phantom

Z-95 Headhunter

YT-2400

VT-49 Decimator

IG-2000

And then probably

Hound's Tooth

Kihraxz

K-wing

TIE punisher

Ghost

TIE advanced v1

Mist Hunter

Punishing One

There's also

HWK-290

StarViper

M3A Interceptor

which are fine IMO but controversial, and

E-wing

has one pilot that's tournament good.

Only the TIE advanced and A-wing have received flat out fixes. People think the X-wing needs one and some people think the TIE defender needs one too.

Only two ships out of X-wing's rather large selection have received fixes (unless you count the TIE phantom's nerf), and only three (X-wing, TIE defender, E-wing) that are widely believed to be in need of one. Of those, only the X-wing approaches a consensus.

So let's not get your favourite soapbox started up again, okay?

Ewing generics do suck its true.

Defenders need a price reduction to see competitive play but the generics do see play so it's not that bad off really.

X-wing needs a way to reposition such as barrel roll, I don't think you can justify boost unless you borrow from the games and have them reduce attack by one to boost reflecting the s foils closing.

None are as bad as the pre-fix advanced though.

Only two ships out of X-wing's rather large selection have received fixes (unless you count the TIE phantom's nerf), and only three (X-wing, TIE defender, E-wing) that are widely believed to be in need of one. Of those, only the X-wing approaches a consensus.

Surely there's as much consensus around the E-Wing as the X-Wing needing a fix?

E'tahn has had good tournament results. So, much like the Defender, the uniques are stronger than the generics.

Just wondering... Is/was there any ship that didn't need a fix/buff?

TIE fighter - Getting an engine buff

Y-wing - Already got a buff with title

Firespray-31

YT-1300 - C3PO

TIE interceptor - Auto Thrusters

TIE bomber - Really? I thought everyone agreed that ordnance which is the bombers primary purpose was junk; otherwise how good is a naked squad of bombers?

B-wing

Lambda Shuttle

TIE phantom - Okay, here they took some of the shine off. Does an anti-buff count

Z-95 Headhunter

YT-2400

VT-49 Decimator

IG-2000

And then probably

Hound's Tooth

Kihraxz

K-wing

TIE punisher

Ghost

TIE advanced v1

Mist Hunter

Punishing One

I'm not sure what you know about unreleased ships but I don't know enough about them. Even then it usually takes a couple of waves.

There's also

HWK-290 - people have been crying about this from it's release saying it needs one more attack die.

StarViper

M3A Interceptor

which are fine IMO but controversial, and

E-wing

has one pilot that's tournament good. - If one pilot was good enough then the X-Wing would be fine with it's couple of pilots.

Only the TIE advanced and A-wing have received flat out fixes. People think the X-wing needs one and some people think the TIE defender needs one too. - Yep

Only two ships out of X-wing's rather large selection have received fixes (unless you count the TIE phantom's nerf), and only three (X-wing, TIE defender, E-wing) that are widely believed to be in need of one. Of those, only the X-wing approaches a consensus.

So let's not get your favourite soapbox started up again, okay?

Yes it is my favorite soapbox so I'll drop it there

TIE Bomber needed a fix, and these are it:

TIE Bomber needed a fix, and these are it:

XX 23 isn't really a fix for ordinance because it helps primary weapons as much as secondary. It's more of an incremental bump for swarms/mini swarms against 2 ship builds, with fat turrets.

Snip

XX 23 isn't really a fix for ordinance because it helps primary weapons as much as secondary. It's more of an incremental bump for swarms/mini swarms against 2 ship builds, with fat turrets.

It helps primary weapons once.

It completely enables ordnance.

Example:

Blount + VI + Tracers

5x Bandit + Concussion

99 points

First round of combat? 18.4 expected damage, unless the enemy manages to erase one of your bandits before it can attack.

Absolutely destroys most two-ship builds by being able to completely erase one.

So, yes. This is an ordnance fix, because it is the single strongest buff to Alpha-Strike lists I've ever seen.

And I'm giddy.

Snip

XX 23 isn't really a fix for ordinance because it helps primary weapons as much as secondary. It's more of an incremental bump for swarms/mini swarms against 2 ship builds, with fat turrets.

It helps primary weapons once.

It completely enables ordnance.

Example:

Blount + VI + Tracers

4x Bandit + Concussion

99 points

First round of combat? 18.4 expected damage, unless the enemy manages to erase one of your bandits before it can attack.

Absolutely destroys most two-ship builds by being able to completely erase one.

So, yes. This is an ordnance fix, because it is the single strongest buff to Alpha-Strike lists I've ever seen.

And I'm giddy.

I can't believe I'm posting in this god forsaken thread but seeing as it changed tenor and is actually producing some reasonable discussion...

That's the beauty of this upgrade/fix! It's both an alpha strike ordnance buff and a swarm boost! Another elegant design element from the FFG design team.

Example:

Blount + VI + Tracers

4x Bandit + Concussion

99 points

First round of combat? 18.4 expected damage, unless the enemy manages to erase one of your bandits before it can attack.

You must mean 5 Bandits. 18.4 damage / 4 missiles > 4 damage per missile, which would be quite an achievement.

Example:

Blount + VI + Tracers

4x Bandit + Concussion

99 points

First round of combat? 18.4 expected damage, unless the enemy manages to erase one of your bandits before it can attack.

You must mean 5 Bandits. 18.4 damage / 4 missiles > 4 damage per missile, which would be quite an achievement.

You are quite right, and I edited my original post.

Fortunately, 'tis Blount + 5 that are 99 points.

Just wondering... Is/was there any ship that didn't need a fix/buff?

TIE fighter - Getting an engine buff

Y-wing - Already got a buff with title

Firespray-31

YT-1300 - C3PO

TIE interceptor - Auto Thrusters

TIE bomber - Really? I thought everyone agreed that ordnance which is the bombers primary purpose was junk; otherwise how good is a naked squad of bombers?

B-wing

Lambda Shuttle

TIE phantom - Okay, here they took some of the shine off. Does an anti-buff count

Z-95 Headhunter

YT-2400

VT-49 Decimator

IG-2000

And then probably

Hound's Tooth

Kihraxz

K-wing

TIE punisher

Ghost

TIE advanced v1

Mist Hunter

Punishing One

I'm not sure what you know about unreleased ships but I don't know enough about them. Even then it usually takes a couple of waves.

There's also

HWK-290 - people have been crying about this from it's release saying it needs one more attack die.

StarViper

M3A Interceptor

which are fine IMO but controversial, and

E-wing

has one pilot that's tournament good. - If one pilot was good enough then the X-Wing would be fine with it's couple of pilots.

Only the TIE advanced and A-wing have received flat out fixes. People think the X-wing needs one and some people think the TIE defender needs one too. - Yep

Only two ships out of X-wing's rather large selection have received fixes (unless you count the TIE phantom's nerf), and only three (X-wing, TIE defender, E-wing) that are widely believed to be in need of one. Of those, only the X-wing approaches a consensus.

So let's not get your favourite soapbox started up again, okay?

Yes it is my favorite soapbox so I'll drop it there

Those aren't buffs, and those aren't fixes. You're listing options that have been added. Chardaan Refit and TIE/x1/ATC are the only flat out fixes (autoinclude (or near autoinclude for the A-wing given you sometimes really want a missile) cards to directly power up a ship), and those two ships desperately needed them. The magnitude of the fix is proportional to the magnitude of the problem.

Everything else are options with an associated point or slot cost that change the ship but don't buff it, like B-wing/E2 and Bomb Loadout. Unless you oppose expansions to existing ships, I struggle to see what the problem is. The designers know what they're doing, they're not going to look at a ship lagging behind, overreact, and end up playing some fix card version of leapfrog where you need five expansions to get all the fixes to run one ship. The A-wing was brought up to the pack, and the TIE advanced was brought up to the pack.

The E-wing and Defender were very cautiously priced. The TIE defender is borderline and the designers themselves have conceded the sorry state of the E-wing's generics. The X-wing suffers from having been designed in Wave 1, much like the TIE advanced, and again the designers have said it needs a bit of help. It was fine in Wave 1 where it only faced two die attacks, and it coped up to Wave 3, but now there are so many 4 die attacks flying around that it just gets obliterated, hence Tarn and Luke being the only popular pilots.

TIE Engine MKII? It's good but it's hardly some sort of fix card. Autothrusters? It's worth two points. And you pay two points for it. Usually more because you run multiple copies of it.

Y-wing, BTL-A4 gives it two attacks. In return, it locks the turret forward. Look at the premium Ion Cannon Turret pays over Ion Cannon for its 360 arc: 2 points and the loss of the range 3 band. BTL-A4 is not free.

Extra Munitions fixes ordnance, not the TIE bomber. The TIE bomber already saw use as a swarmer (somewhat antithematic but the naked squad of bombers did work) and it turned up at Worlds as a minelayer. EM allows you to run the TIE bomber as they intended for it to be run, but it found a home before that.

C-3PO's more powerful than it looks like they meant him to be but he's not a Falcon fix.

HWK never uses its primary anyway. People haven't been crying out since release that it needs another attack die, Alex Davy mentioned it would have been fine with one as an off-hand comment in an interview.

Snip

XX 23 isn't really a fix for ordinance because it helps primary weapons as much as secondary. It's more of an incremental bump for swarms/mini swarms against 2 ship builds, with fat turrets.

It helps primary weapons once.

It completely enables ordnance.

Example:

Blount + VI + Tracers

5x Bandit + Concussion

99 points

First round of combat? 18.4 expected damage, unless the enemy manages to erase one of your bandits before it can attack.

Absolutely destroys most two-ship builds by being able to completely erase one.

So, yes. This is an ordnance fix, because it is the single strongest buff to Alpha-Strike lists I've ever seen.

And I'm giddy.

I don't disagree the it helps ordinance, but what is the utility of of having 4 or 5 TLs on the same target unless it's a "fat" ship that will require 18.4 damage to destroy. On smaller targets half of those TLs are wasted when the ship is destroyed.

Trust me I like the idea of the alpha striking missile lists and this helps them, but it also helps non-ordinance carriers too because you now have a TL to fire and an action for defense.

So, yes. This is an ordnance fix, because it is the single strongest buff to Alpha-Strike lists I've ever seen.

And I'm giddy.

I don't disagree the it helps ordinance, but what is the utility of of having 4 or 5 TLs on the same target unless it's a "fat" ship that will require 18.4 damage to destroy. On smaller targets half of those TLs are wasted when the ship is destroyed.

Trust me I like the idea of the alpha striking missile lists and this helps them, but it also helps non-ordinance carriers too because you now have a TL to fire and an action for defense.

Oh, so you mean this Alpha-Strike is a list that fares well against the currently-dominant 2-ship lists, but struggles a bit against lists without a big-guy?

That's the catalyst for a shifting metagame, and healthy.

So, yes. This is an ordnance fix, because it is the single strongest buff to Alpha-Strike lists I've ever seen.

And I'm giddy.

I don't disagree the it helps ordinance, but what is the utility of of having 4 or 5 TLs on the same target unless it's a "fat" ship that will require 18.4 damage to destroy. On smaller targets half of those TLs are wasted when the ship is destroyed.

Trust me I like the idea of the alpha striking missile lists and this helps them, but it also helps non-ordinance carriers too because you now have a TL to fire and an action for defense.

Oh, so you mean this Alpha-Strike is a list that fares well against the currently-dominant 2-ship lists, but struggles a bit against lists without a big-guy?

That's the catalyst for a shifting metagame, and healthy.

Not completely, I think the XX-23 helps with the 2 ship lists. An alpha strike list is useful against all sorts of lists. The X-23 has the most utility against single targets, where a missile/alpha strike list doesn't have to necessarily target a single ship.

I posted this in one of your threads:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/179181-whats-the-best-z-95-illicitmissile-spam-list-you-can-come-up-with/

Suhlak gets two 4 dice attacks with expected damage of 3.5 per 4 die attack, and the rest get two 3 dice attacks with expected damage of 2.25 per 3 die attack. The Glitterstim works like a focus for offense and doesn't require an action. So 32 attack dice will yield 7+(4.5*4)=25 expected damage from an alpha strike.

None of the expected damage calcs are mine. I am using someone else's calcs and I am taking them on face value.

N'Dru Suhlak (17)

Lone Wolf (2)

Cluster Missiles (4)

Glitterstim (2)

Black Sun Soldier (13)

Cluster Missiles (4)

Glitterstim (2)

Binayre Pirate (12)

Cluster Missiles (4)

Glitterstim (2)

Black Sun Soldier (13)

Cluster Missiles (4)

Glitterstim (2)

Black Sun Soldier (13)

Cluster Missiles (4)

Glitterstim (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

It's a superior alpha strike to the XX-23 list and not limited to a single target. This is why I don't think XX-23 is really an ordinance fix but more of a bump for mini swarms against 2 ship or "fat" builds.

So, yes. This is an ordnance fix, because it is the single strongest buff to Alpha-Strike lists I've ever seen.

And I'm giddy.

I don't disagree the it helps ordinance, but what is the utility of of having 4 or 5 TLs on the same target unless it's a "fat" ship that will require 18.4 damage to destroy. On smaller targets half of those TLs are wasted when the ship is destroyed.

Trust me I like the idea of the alpha striking missile lists and this helps them, but it also helps non-ordinance carriers too because you now have a TL to fire and an action for defense.

Oh, so you mean this Alpha-Strike is a list that fares well against the currently-dominant 2-ship lists, but struggles a bit against lists without a big-guy?

That's the catalyst for a shifting metagame, and healthy.

Not completely, I think the XX-23 helps with the 2 ship lists. A alpha strike list is useful against all sorts of lists. The X-23 has the most utility against single targets, where a missile/alpha strike list doesn't have to necessarily target a single ship.

I posted this in one of your threads:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/179181-whats-the-best-z-95-illicitmissile-spam-list-you-can-come-up-with/

Suhlak gets two 4 dice attacks with expected damage of 3.5 per 4 die attack, and the rest get two 3 dice attacks with expected damage of 2.25 per 3 die attack. The Glitterstim works like a focus for offense and doesn't require an action. So 32 attack dice will yield 7+(4.5*4)=25 expected damage from an alpha strike.

None of the expected damage calcs are mine. I am using someone else's calcs and I am taking them on face value.

N'Dru Suhlak (17)

Lone Wolf (2)

Cluster Missiles (4)

Glitterstim (2)

Black Sun Soldier (13)

Cluster Missiles (4)

Glitterstim (2)

Binayre Pirate (12)

Cluster Missiles (4)

Glitterstim (2)

Black Sun Soldier (13)

Cluster Missiles (4)

Glitterstim (2)

Black Sun Soldier (13)

Cluster Missiles (4)

Glitterstim (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

It's a superior alpha strike to the XX-23 list and not limited to a single target. This is why I don't think XX-23 is really an ordinance fix but more of a bump for mini swarms against 2 ship or "fat" builds.

It's an older thread, sir, but it checks out.

I apologize for hijacking a thread about the Tie Advanced with a conversation about the XX-23 tracer. There is already a thread about that.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/184021-xx-23-utility/

Since you asked:

Those aren't buffs, and those aren't fixes. You're listing options that have been added.
[...]

They can be options and fixes simultaneously. They are not mutually exclusive but that concept can limit the idea of what is (defines) a fix/buffs. In other words you may have identified any 'optional' card as not a fix or buff. Nevertheless autoincludes or near autoincludes can be, relatively speaking, the same in concept and practical use to buffs and fixes. In this regard I see your point; I would still disagree.

[...] I struggle to see what the problem is. [...]

Yes, I can see that.

I may not have made my thoughts clear or completely voiced them. Let me try.

First I’d like to clarify a few things:

I should say that I do not have any problem with upgrades, new options or even new ships in and of themselves. They often add both variety and flavor to the game. Many get ships they've always wanted; others have a more diverse playing field or build strategies. All of this can be good and helps improve the game. I've been playing miniature games for years and I too like the variety.

Also FFG Star Wars: X-Wing doesn’t have as many expansions as other game makers isn’t really an argument. You’ll always be able to find games that are worse or better in comparison. We are, after all, talking about this game. Additionally we are all well aware that no one is obligated to purchase a game; saying ‘well you don’t have to buy them’ is plain missing the point at its best, and rude at its worst. Finally (is that the last one, really? I’m sure I can think of more ) we also know you can proxy cards. Again this misses the point. Many like the real thing, proxies are not valid in tournaments, even local ones, and it misses the point. Did I say that already?

But! There is a few sides to this particular issue.
One issue that I’ve seen people post their frustration over is the fact that many ‘near’ auto-includes come in different expansion packs. If you’d like to compete against ships whose primary weapon is a turret, you should purchase the Star Viper for Auto-Thruster. Whether or not you play the Star Viper is not relevant; you need to purchase it if you wish to keep your TIE Interceptors viable. If you’re frustrated that the 3 or 4 TIE Advanced you own are not remotely competitive then you should also purchase the Raider. If you like the arc dodging of A-Wing you’ll need both the A-Wing expansion, Rebel Aces and possibly Star Vipers. Of course these upgrades are optional but, again, that doesn’t address the point does it? You can’t just buy your faction or your squad.

This used to be a simple game. Yes I know that with diversity comes more complexity. However it is getting harder for occasional players to be competitive in quick games. Knowing synergies is complicated enough in a diverse game. Now with the ever growing list of ‘near’ auto-includes the upgrades have gone from adding flavor and variety to being a requirement. We are edging away from a miniature game toward a deck building; it is moving away from a pickup game. Many like the deck/squad building type of game and the variety/complexities that it affords. But the simplicity that attracted many to this game is fading with every new buff/fix. How many have seen, at their LGS, people that wish to play X-Wing but don’t have a go to squad? Often in these situations the actual squad building can take longer than the setup and game play.

Currently the rules are 28 pages long and includes setup, credits, production notes, TOC, etc. The FAQ is 16 pages so far. As above this began as a simple game. Do we recall Occum Double tap and nesting? Have you tried to explain that series of moves and nesting to a new gamer playing X-Wing? It won’t be much longer before this game screams for a X-Wing 2.0 to combine all of the fixes into standard rules. I hope when that happens the new version will be within my budget and won’t make everything I’ve purchased worthless.

On the upside Fantasy Flight has done a fantastic job and keeping older ships relevant in an ever changing meta. Generally their build and painting quality is superb and come on… it is after all Star Wars. I keep a tablet with squads on it and several printed out hard copy. This tends to speed things up.

So you see I love the game and Fantasy Flight. I like that it’s Star Wars, the pre-painted ships, the quality and strategy of the game. I just didn’t drink the kool aid.


P.S. I’ve been considering stopping with the Raider but after reading many of the posts I’ll be continuing to buy ships. The cards in Wave 7 are good even if I’m not excited by several of the models. The ships will still be good in squads. Wave 8 looks good and we may be moving away from the 2 (two) ship meta. All in all, as someone who loves the ships and player (though not at the level of many of you) I’m will stay in it for now.

I’ll try to keep off this particular box for a while.

I hope I helped clarifying my reasons and motivations. Sorry for the long post