To go by the clip that Ghostofman linked to, the RotJ rematch between Luke and Vader probably didn't have that many actual Lightsaber combat checks, and instead had Vader rolling Coercion and Luke rolling Charm at various points to try and convert the other to their point of view. Vader wound up rolling a Despair when he tried his Coercion check while he and Luke were under the Emperor's throne, which in turn caused Luke to flip out and proceed to flatten the Sith Lord with his next Lightsaber combat check.

Revised review:

Inits are PC, NPC

1) Luke makes an attack roll, get's nothing but panties. Vader makes an attack, Luke Spends a d-point to upgrade his difficulty. Vader rolls Despair, Luke parrys uses that Despair to kick him down the stairs.

Talking ensues

2) Luke makes a charm check... more panties, and two eyeballs this time too. Vader makes a free stand up, moves to Luke and attacks. Luke parrys again.

3) Luke moves and then force jumps to the catwalk. Vader uses throw saber, missing and using a triumph/advantage to destroy the catwalk instead.

4) Luke makes a stealth check, Vader uses sense to detect surface thoughts.

5) Luke makes a second stealth check, using advantage to help regain some strain spent parrying. Vader makes a Coercion check, improved from the previous round's Sense results and succeeds with a Despair, upgrading Lukes next attack.

6) Luke attacks spending a Dpoint to upgrade again (LOL!), generating multiple Triumph which he uses to knock Vader down and Crit. Result is at least Crippled, probably Maimed or better. The merciless attack is something Palps finds hilarious. Luke realizes he's about to earn a hutt sized slice of conflict pie if this keeps up (activated morality: Brave/Anger) and tosses his saber aside saying he'd rather get electrocuted with old man lightening then kill Vader. Palpy says "fine, have it your way" and assume Vaders init slot. Bzzzap. Ensare anyone?

Saber fight is over, but just of completion, one or two more rounds of Charm from Luke, a couple solid successes with Triumphs, and Palpy is just a smear on the Falcons windshield.

I've never heard someone call the failure symbol "Panties". Now I cannot unsee.

I've never heard someone call the failure symbol "Panties". Now I cannot unsee.

It took me a second, and then said to myself "Yeah, That kinda looks like a thong".

And now the Thong Song is stuck in my head.

And flip advantage upside down and it is a puppie face.

It's worth noting - though this has likely already been stated in this thread (tl;dr) - that each combat round is about a minute long, IIRC. So the Anakin/Obi-Wan sabre fight would only have lasted about 8 rounds, whilst most others seen in the film are shorter in length.

So even using the standard rules, combat can be epic is you seize upon the minute long combat round rule to detail your fight to the teeth. But when you count Parry, Reflect, and the multitude of other talents available, your fights can go on for longer and become even grander. All you need do, then, is throw in an exciting environment and other hurdles, and your combats will be every bit as exciting as Vader vs Luke or Anakin vs. Obi-Wan.

It's worth noting - though this has likely already been stated in this thread (tl;dr) - that each combat round is about a minute long, IIRC. So the Anakin/Obi-Wan sabre fight would only have lasted about 8 rounds, whilst most others seen in the film are shorter in length.

So even using the standard rules, combat can be epic is you seize upon the minute long combat round rule to detail your fight to the teeth. But when you count Parry, Reflect, and the multitude of other talents available, your fights can go on for longer and become even grander. All you need do, then, is throw in an exciting environment and other hurdles, and your combats will be every bit as exciting as Vader vs Luke or Anakin vs. Obi-Wan.

I think the Advantages, Threats, Triumphs and Despairs really help with this. When you have a system in which you just roll to hit there's a tendency to regard one roll as being one attack. But when you have to come up with extra narrative events as part of the attack, it's an ever present reminder that more is happening than just a shot. The fact that ammo isn't individually tracked like in some games (Short bust? That's three bullets to cross off) also helps. This game goes out of its way to help GMs make a round more than just an attack, I feel. It's one of the things I really like about it.

And flip advantage upside down and it is a puppie face.

Puppies and thongs?

Yeah, Jerry "The King" Lawler is one happy camper with these dice

Case-in-point: one of the greatest lightsaber battles my D6 Jedi ever underwent took place in his mind against the spirit of one of the galaxy's first Sith Lords - someone who beat the living snot into our entire party via the possession of an NPC's body, at least until he was exercised by the other Jedi. His spirit then entered into my (fallen) Jedi and put him in a coma, which is when the battle for my character's body and mind began.

That combat took hours to write up, and it's length was several thousand words (I forget the exact number). Needless to say, it was extremely epic. However, in this system it would only have lasted around 10-15 rounds - but it's grand scope and detail would not have been hampered at all because of the combat's short duration.

You can do almost anything with this system, if you remember to take into account the mechanics of it (Advantages, Triumphs, Despairs, round length, that one attack isn't just that, etc).

Also listen to the Skill Monkey ! Short episodes packed with great ideas on how to narrate even a simple Success.

Someone brought up Bespin ... remember that that fight was split into three different encounters, so it did in fact drag on as both Vader and Luke would have had a chance to recover some Strain between encounters.

Overall, I really like this new system as both Improved Reflect and Improved Parry make attacking trained lightsaber wielders very dangerous. And the base Parry is fairly good at absorbing damage from being struck by a Lightsaber in a duel, not to mention any number of other talents in the six form trees that contribute to the fight. In the end, it'll often come down to a battle of Strain attrition, which is indeed canon ... there are many examples of people losing saber fights due to becoming fatigued and making a critical error.

Personally, what I'd love to see is every form compared to every other in a straight 1 vs 1 duel. In *principle*, Makashi should be able to win many more fights than it loses given it's a form developed specifically to fight other lightsaber wielders. But I'd be curious to see if this holds up in practice.

EDIT: Incidentally, if I'm reading this correctly, Makashi Flourish isn't an attack per se, but rather a way of exhausting an opponent. So does that mean that talents like Defensive Stance and Defensive Training don't apply?

EDIT: Incidentally, if I'm reading this correctly, Makashi Flourish isn't an attack per se, but rather a way of exhausting an opponent. So does that mean that talents like Defensive Stance and Defensive Training don't apply?

If it's part of the Attack Roll the mechanically they would apply. Think of DS and DT as being able to distinguish a "real" attack and one that is only meant to wear an opponent down.

EDIT: Incidentally, if I'm reading this correctly, Makashi Flourish isn't an attack per se, but rather a way of exhausting an opponent. So does that mean that talents like Defensive Stance and Defensive Training don't apply?

If I remember the text for Makashi Flourish, it is a combat check (which is another way of saying attack in RAW), so you would be able to use those talents.

Yeah, that's the thing. It's not. It's just listed as a Lightsaber check, minus the combat part that I see in other listed powers. This is why I'm wondering if defensive abilities play a part.

Yeah, that's the thing. It's not. It's just listed as a Lightsaber check, minus the combat part that I see in other listed powers. This is why I'm wondering if defensive abilities play a part.

If it's just a Lightsaber check, then no, because they trigger off of attacks.

At least RAW that is, your GM ruling may vary.

Yeah, that's the thing. It's not. It's just listed as a Lightsaber check, minus the combat part that I see in other listed powers. This is why I'm wondering if defensive abilities play a part.

If it's just a Lightsaber check, then no, because they trigger off of attacks.

At least RAW that is, your GM ruling may vary.

Hmmm.... this looks like a Dev question. I'd suggest sending it to CS and let us know what Sam says.

If it was meant to, then it would be labeled as a combat check – as almost every other Lightsaber talent that involves a roll does.

If it was meant to, then it would be labeled as a combat check – as almost every other Lightsaber talent that involves a roll does.

If it does damage it's likely going to be a Combat check but maybe not. Let's see what Sam says.

Makashi Flourish doesn`t cause damage. Successes on that role count as Strain drain, not as wounds. Thematically, it wouldn`t be countered by defensive moves ... it`s essentially a series of quick feints and dodges designed to frustrate your opponent while bolstering your own confidence. The more you tire them out, the bigger the boost to your ego. All of it fueled by the Force. This is why Form II is such a potent dueling form - it can just tire out any opponent, including Soresu masters who are trying to block attacks that never come.

Makashi Flourish doesn`t cause damage. Successes on that role count as Strain drain, not as wounds. Thematically, it wouldn`t be countered by defensive moves ... it`s essentially a series of quick feints and dodges designed to frustrate your opponent while bolstering your own confidence. The more you tire them out, the bigger the boost to your ego. All of it fueled by the Force. This is why Form II is such a potent dueling form - it can just tire out any opponent, including Soresu masters who are trying to block attacks that never come.

I'm AFB so I'd need to read it again. Regardless mechanically both Wounds and Strain are considered Damage.

As for Defensive Moves or Training countering "thematically" you can make the argument that defensive training allows you to see though all the flourish and know when and when not to react, thus saving your energy. Doesn't matter though how you describe it because we still have the mechanical issue to work out: is the Makashi Flourish an Attack or not?

It's a Dev question that I'm sure we'll get the answer to soon.

I'd say that Makashi Flourish would bypass Defensive Stance or a target's Melee Defense, since it operates very similar to Scathing Tirade. Namely, the PC makes a Lightsaber (Presence) check, determines if they succeed or fail, and then decides which engaged adversary get affected. So it's no more a combat check than the Coercion check for Scathing Tirade is, which is unaffected by things like Nobody's Fool since Scathing Tirade doesn't determine its targets until after the PC has determined if they succeeded or failed the Coercion check.

Isn't that kinda the point of Adversary? I mean a guy with Lightsaber 3:2 opposed, and a guy with Adversary 3 will generate the difficulty using either method. And if you're having a duel that guy better darn well have adversary...

Yeah, my issue is just that taking an opponent's skill pool and Adversary into account is basically doubling up. The Adversary talent is meant, in my mind, to represent "skilled opposition" or "elite training," and that is exactly what skill ranks are for So it'd be like giving Batman a Boost die to hide because his suit is black, and then another Boost die to hide because his suit is dark .

Well that makes perfect sense though, he'd also get an upgrade because he's Batman.

Seriously though, my point was more: If you want to use opposed checks, why not just give the target character sufficient ranks in adversary to get roughly the same result without the kludge?

WAIT!!!

I can play as Batman in this game????

Yes please and thank you.

I mean I have the shirt http://shirtigo.co/always-be-yourself-unless-you-can-be-batman/