ignoring the slight point difference, which would do better on the initial joust / engagement vs a generic opponent

Howlrunner w/ determination + 3 academy

or

5 academy

The howlrunner, assuming she's at R3 with a defensive token and the academies are R2 with focus.

Does the Howlrunner Bonus spread over 3 ships, and having one ship at PS 8 with Determination, outweigh the added damage from the addition of another TIE fighter?

It really depends at this scale as to against whom you are fighting. The more damage they produce, the more TIEs you want to field, while the more damage they mitigate, the more damage you need each individual TIE to produce.

Both are viable.

Throw in another 3 academy ties, and it's definitely on the Howlrunner side.

You thinking of Swarming in Escalation?

ignoring the slight point difference, which would do better on the initial joust / engagement vs a generic opponent

Howlrunner w/ determination + 3 academy

or

5 academy

I know you said ignoring the slight point difference, but I generally run Howlrunner [swarm tactics, hull upgrade] + 3 Academy and I'd take that any day over 5 AP's.

Does the Howlrunner Bonus spread over 3 ships, and having one ship at PS 8 with Determination, outweigh the added damage from the addition of another TIE fighter?

It really depends at this scale as to against whom you are fighting. The more damage they produce, the more TIEs you want to field, while the more damage they mitigate, the more damage you need each individual TIE to produce.

Both are viable.

Throw in another 3 academy ties, and it's definitely on the Howlrunner side.

You thinking of Swarming in Escalation?

The other 40-45 points would be Redline, fun list of an ordinance carrier and its escort.

But now you got me thinking of starting Redline and Howl in an escalation format

In today's meta, likely the 5 TIEs. The current "problem" is that Howlrunner can too easily be killed prior to the Academies shooting, in which case, you've essentially lost 2 TIE fighters, since you were down one to begin with, and lost Howl, often before even shooting. 4FTL vs. 3E = 1.45 damage, and then a follow up 3F vs. 3 = 1.22 more damage, totaling 2.67 damage to Howl runner before she gets to really shoot against several common lists.

Give me the numbers every time. Its too hard to keep Howlie alive now with all the HLC's and the like floating around.

I prefer 5 academy ties. Howlrunner is just a target, one I kill first when playing against her. With a swarm of just straight academy's you have the extra ship with more options due to all ships being equal if destroyed. I do prefer to move all of a swarm at once on same initiative as well if possible.

I would prefer the 5 Ties in that case. More bodies let them do more tasks (blocking is the big one) and you aren't confined to running in formation. Also, it should take the same amount of firepower from the opponent to drop 2 Ties, then you are left with either A) 2 Ties (Howl is probably dead) or B) 3 Ties. Even after losing only one Tie from the 4-Tie mini-swarm, your efficiency drops drastically (only 2 rerolls max, or none if they were able to punk Howl with some cannons or something).

TIE Fighters are pretty much useless in the current meta except for blocking, so I'd say the 5 Academy Pilots would be better.

As far as an Escalation first round would go, I can't imagine either having a chance against Super Corran and a Z or whatever game ruining 2 ship nonsense that gets halved for the 60 point Escalation round.

If you were going to go with Howl+3 I'd spend a few more points to make those APs Obsidian Squads. It's still cheaper than going with 5 APs and against some opponents will make a big difference. Sure, there are going to be some matches where it won't make a difference and you've wasted 3 points on a PS bid but anytime you sit down across from someone running Predator or running a list full of generic B-Wings or Y-Wings being at PS3 can be huge.

That being said, I'd probably go with 5 APs unless whatever you spend the remaining 40ish points on is a big enough threat that it causes opponents to ignore your TIEs.

ignoring the slight point difference, which would do better on the initial joust / engagement vs a generic opponent

Howlrunner w/ determination + 3 academy

or

5 academy

From a straight up numbers perspective, the 5 TIEs have essentially the same damage output, but have more durability.

5 TIEs figure of merit = 5 attack * 5 defense = 25 units.

4 TIEs figure of merit = (3*1.3 + 1) attack * 4 defense = 19.6 units.

But the cost is different: 5 TIEs costs 60 points, and 3 TIEs+Howl costs only 54. The Figure of Merit goes as the total cost squared, so normalizing the 5 TIEs to a 54 point cost we have:

5*5*(54/60)^2 = 20.25

... which is only barely higher than the 19.6 score from the Howlrunner squadron. However, this makes the faulty assumption that the Howlrunner squadron will always provide a 30% buff to the other 3 TIEs, even after Howlrunner is dead. In reality, Howlrunner goes poof very quickly, and then you're left with just 3 normal TIEs.

Tactically, what Texx said. He knows his stuff.

What about 5x Black with Predator and Night beast? No vulnerability due to Howlrunner getting whacked too early, no need to TL if you had used Targeting Computer mods. Would this swarm be able to handle PWTs and other such nonsense?

I really sometimes hate how this game works.

I had to play some 4 or 5 Zs vs 2IG. It was stupidly annoying. I had to take multiple turns to k-turn, set up TL and F to even do a single damage over 4Zs. BOTH TL and F. And some turns it didn't even do one hit. This process repeated for 20 turns or so before the final damage got through. (Untimed match intentionally).

I don't get it. Do people think this is cool design? It just bothers me. (Also, in the IG case, its mostly the autothrusters that end up effing up your damage potential, as it really blocks a lot of shots. I'm also notably, not the greatest blocker.)

The Evil League of Evil

If you did want even points Howl+3 Blacks or Howl+3pt upgrade+3 Obsidians against 5 Academies. I would probably take Howl in this case I don't know if it would be enough but the PS advantage to shoot first takes it from a 4v5 to probably a 4v4 or maybe a 4v3 before the Academies can even fire and the PS3/4 helps against builds that run predator or have PS2 Rebel ships(when combined is probably close to the 90% range)

Blail Blerg, on 28 Jul 2015 - 2:24 PM, said:Blail Blerg, on 28 Jul 2015 - 2:24 PM, said:

I really sometimes hate how this game works.

I had to play some 4 or 5 Zs vs 2IG. It was stupidly annoying. I had to take multiple turns to k-turn, set up TL and F to even do a single damage over 4Zs. BOTH TL and F. And some turns it didn't even do one hit. This process repeated for 20 turns or so before the final damage got through. (Untimed match intentionally).

I don't get it. Do people think this is cool design? It just bothers me. (Also, in the IG case, its mostly the autothrusters that end up effing up your damage potential, as it really blocks a lot of shots. I'm also notably, not the greatest blocker.)

This game and most games are MUCH more satisfying to play untimed. Sure... going over 2-3 hours is too much. But the timer sucks for play. Its only there to keep tournaments in reasonable timeframe to finish.

Most the complaints are because of the "Timer . See MOV, Fat ships, 2 ship builds, ...... Without a timer this game really opens up and is 3 times as much fun.