Seriously, I really think Rebel fighters are overpriced. Not hideously so, and not totally useless (put away your bile guns fighter-philes) but just to the point that I never feel like they are a worthwhile investment next to my capitals.

Imperial Aces are very teamwork oriented with the exception of Vader and...well c'mon, he's Darth Vader; He doesn't need any help from regular TIE plebs. Howrunner works well with Swarm based TIEs, Rhymer works extra well with other bombers and advanced, and can even make a cloud of TIE fighters obnoxious at medium range. Fel loves his Advanced bodyguards and wants to be paired with Howlrunner too...they all synergize very nicely. Once again, they're not overpowered (IMO) they just play very well together and really give a sense of a cohesive fighter unit.

Rebel Aces...don't. They're almost like grand-standers with the possible exception of Kayen Farlander who wants someone else to knock a shield down before he dumps some torpedoes in. No can keep up with Tychos ability to disengage, Wedge likes exhausted targets, Dutch likes to MAKE exhausted targets (OKay so Dutch and Wedge work pretty well together) and Luke is more at home in a Bomber wing than with other X-wings. It's like a cloud of individuals instead of a unit, which I realize is sort of the point with Rebel mindsets, but it's makes for....well frankly it makes for uninteresting fighter phases as a rebel.

And maybe it's just me but I have a HUGE problem fielding anything but X-wings because they're just so much better. They're cheaper than B-Wings, gain a speed and an anti-fighter armament, only losing one blue battery armament. They're significantly tougher than A-Wings, and if you're opponent chooses not to trigger the A-Wings counter than they also hit harder than A-Wings, losing out only in Speed. And Y-wings...ugh. I want to like them, I really really do...but I hate them. The only thing going for them is their cheap cost married to a Bomber Black Die. But they're tied down and murdered so easily, even with escorts, that they always feel like a waste of points.

So in the end, I just find as a rebel that fighters aren't worth it. I can field two different designs that bring two Anti-Fighter armament to the table and can even field the point defense reroute on one of them if I'm...focused on fighter elimination to the point of brain damage.

Addendum: I'm looking forward to Wave 2 'cause I think it will bring some spice to the fighter game. Intel means Y-Wings could actually disengage from targets to complete a bombing run, and Rogue means an escorting YT-1300 (or whatev) can give and take without needing commands. Until then though, I feel the fighter game is flat and stale.

Rebel fighters always felt kind of lukewarm (ha) compared to the fighter shredding the Empire can do but I wouldn't call them completely worthless. I've had success with a 3 Nebulon list leaning heavily on B-Wings and some escort X-Wings. With Yavaris and Flight controllers a couple of B-Wing squadrons can tear through enemy fighters just as easily as Interceptors can... only thing is they lack counter.

But this setup makes B-Wings incredibly powerful because they are unmatched in their anti-capital rating. Though Y-wings are heavier and TIE/sa is cheaper, B-Wings en-masse can deal a lot of damage. They can't go anywhere fast but you don't need them to.

I don't think the abilities of the rebel pilots are as impressive as the Empire's, with the exception of Luke. But I think they are enough to get the job done. Stock full of A-Wings to tie up enemy fighters while you kill capital ships, make a Y-Wing slingshot to pave the way for a killer barrage, or create a picket fence out of B-Wings that kill anything that gets close to them. They can do the job well enough, as long as you know exactly what they're supposed to do in your list.

Unfortunately, I have to agree. I really, really want to use them for thematic reasons, but I can't justify it. I gave them lots of chances but I seem to get a lot more out of ships. Whenever I finally get a bunch of Y-wings surrounding a VSD, the VSD can repair more shields than I can take out or it will just fly away. I understand that my fighter tactics aren't the best, and fighters sometimes work great, but overall, they just seem lacking. I'm really excited to see how wave 2 changes how fighters work. I can't wait to play them and not feel guilty points-wise. However, I do find Tycho very good at distracting Tie-bombers and then being able to run away before he gets too much damage. I usually just take him.

I'm getting the feeling you really only need 2-3 A Wings as the rebellion to cut off if anybody is fielding a few squadrons. It's a cheap insurance policy.

I hope they get better as the game goes on. But right now it's kind of the meta to go near fighterless, and if your opponents do that, you really are at the disadvantage in the ship game.

I take 3-4 Awings just to tie up my opponent for a few turns by then I don't have to worry about fighters anymore

Rebel fighters are absolutely awesome ! But their strengths in my noob opinion are very different from the Imperial Fighters.

When taking the basic versions, Imperial Fighters are cheaper and efficient but very specialized while Rebel Fighters cost more but are a tad more generalistic (the A-Wing for example is good in dogfights but the black dice against ships is also efficient with 75% chance of dealing a damage).

When you look at the aces, rather than simply being a buffed up squadron, each brings something specific to the fleet. Luke, for instance, is similar to the X-Wing but gets a major advantage when targeting ships. Dutch, on the other hand, is a more dogfight oriented Y-Wing meaning that you can bomb as well as any other Y-Wing, but should you get engaged you've got an edge. Tycho brings the ability to intercept virtually any squadron at distance 5+1 (movement + engagement range) regardless of whether he is previously engaged or not. Keyan ensures hits on capital ships while not enhancing the maximum damage output. Wedge the man allows you to ensure the death of a squadron, either by striking first with 4 blue dice or going second with 6.

The thing with Rebel squadrons is that they have to be played to work both against squadrons and ships, and sprinkling 1 or 2 maximum Aces to take advantage of their ability. X-Wings are meant to dispatch fighter screens then contribute to ship to ship damage. Y-Wings are meant to mainly bomb but are not caught with their pants down if a fighter screen shows up. A-Wings have enough speed to get where they need to be and even without bomber they still have 75% chance to inflict a damage on a ship. B-Wings are awesome against ships but should they get caught, they have the same anti fighter value as a TIE Fighter and the same hull points as an X-Wing.

So, as we see, the Rebels have 2 squadrons that are versatile with a small preference, and 2 squadrons that are more polarized in their preferred targets but can still do something against the other type of target.

On the other hand, Imperial Fighters are extremely straightforward. Never will you send an Interceptor against a capital ship hoping to do damage. Nor will you send a Bomber in a dogfight hoping to come on top. Imperial Aces are more synergetic than Rebel Aces for sure, but they also come with the disadvantage of buffing each Squadron type's job. Howlrunner and Mithel are useless against ships. Rhymer is useless against Squadrons. Soontir only works in dogfights. Lord Vader is the only one that isn't synergetic in his abilities, but he epitomizes the Escort rule because he is still tough and he will make short work of any squadron that gets close with him.

___

To get back to Rebels, today I played a game with 6 squadrons : Luke, 2 X-Wings, Dutch, 1 A-Wing and 1 B-Wing, with Gallant Haven and a Neb Escort (and a CR90A because why not). The squadrons basically carried the game for me, ensuring a Victory kill in Turn 3, Squadron superiority the whole game (I was facing 4 TIE Fighters plus Howlrunner and 2 Bombers).

But you have to accept to play with the versatility of the Rebel Fighters compared to Imperial Fighters. Against ships, the TIE Bomber is more efficient than the Y-Wing because it gets the same amount of dice for 2 points less, but if the Bomber gets caught in a dogfight without support, it will perform extremely more poorly than the Y-Wing.

In short, Rebel Fighters are good independently because regardless of their type you have a supporting arms approach while the Imperial Fighters have a combined arms approach (and Rebel ships are combined arms while Imperial ships are supporting arms).

???

I have no idea what's going on to get these negative fighter reactions

I guess if we only think of squadrons being for anti-squadron they kinda suck, because we don't have Tie Interceptors, but they're far more than worth their cost. The trick is having them work with your ships...which is exactly what squadrons are supposed to do in this game

2-anti squadron Nebs: wrecks 3 health ties when they try to engage your squadrons by giving them the edge needed to wipe out entire clumps without issue. The squadrons' natural ability to engage capital ships do the rest.

Yavaris: + B-wings, highest anti-ship damage potential in the game bar none. Also makes for ridiculous anti-squadron (even with B-wings) by letting you double-tap with anti-squadron attacks after being engaged. Yavaris B-wings make VSDs and GSDs look like mewling kittens in comparison, and steamrolls right through them.

Gallant Haven: wins every squadron on squadron engagement. Howlrunner + interceptors + flight controllers are surprisingly useless against even generic X-wings while they benefit from even a turn of Haven's ability.

Note: like everything in this wonderful game, success is predicated on good play rather than list composition. The above are simply what take rebel squadrons and give them the potential to reliably wreck the crap out of any enemy, when properly used

I've had a lot of fun pounding the crap out of my opponents capital ships with my B Wings.

I think Rebel fighters are individualistic by design to emphasize that they are stronger in squad-to-squad battle. Imperial fighters employ swarm tactics and need to work together to defeat Rebels by attrition. It's actually quite thematic because in the movies, Rebel fighters would typically destroy several TIES before you see them go down and I like the fact that this is consistent in Armada games.

???

I have no idea what's going on to get these negative fighter reactions

I guess if we only think of squadrons being for anti-squadron they kinda suck, because we don't have Tie Interceptors, but they're far more than worth their cost. The trick is having them work with your ships...which is exactly what squadrons are supposed to do in this game

2-anti squadron Nebs: wrecks 3 health ties when they try to engage your squadrons by giving them the edge needed to wipe out entire clumps without issue. The squadrons' natural ability to engage capital ships do the rest.

Yavaris: + B-wings, highest anti-ship damage potential in the game bar none. Also makes for ridiculous anti-squadron (even with B-wings) by letting you double-tap with anti-squadron attacks after being engaged. Yavaris B-wings make VSDs and GSDs look like mewling kittens in comparison, and steamrolls right through them.

Gallant Haven: wins every squadron on squadron engagement. Howlrunner + interceptors + flight controllers are surprisingly useless against even generic X-wings while they benefit from even a turn of Haven's ability.

Note: like everything in this wonderful game, success is predicated on good play rather than list composition. The above are simply what take rebel squadrons and give them the potential to reliably wreck the crap out of any enemy, when properly used

See you have significantly better luck with your anti-ship dice then I do. My Escort Frigates average one damage on every other TIE every turn, making their firepower incredibly unreliable. Plus if they're maneuvering in tight formation (The Neb B shoulder shuffle) they lose dice when firing through each other. And my B-Wings average one damage a turn against TIE's, making the average to take them down 2-3 turns, and that's 2-3 turns they cannot shoot the target they were specifically brought to shoot. Even if the TIE is engaged with someone else, as long as they manage that generous Range 1 to the B-Wing, it cannot do its job.

The Gallant Haven I'm withholding judgment on because I wanted to get your guys opinion on timing: So if an Ace uses Brace in step four, and final damage is calculated in Step 5, can GH reduce the damage from 1 to Zero? Does it happen AFTER the brace token, or before?

With Yavaris and Flight controllers a couple of B-Wing squadrons can tear through enemy fighters just as easily as Interceptors can

im assuming the flight controllers are on on the assault frigate? cause sadly yavaris cant have flight controllers.

the main issue im having is that the imperials will strike first due to speed, hit like a truck with 6 dice with swarm and if i survive that somehow they have 2 ways of dealing automatic hard to avoid damage via fell and mithel and soon to have a 3rd with boba fett. i just cant keep my squad alive long enough to hit back with all that auto damage, and if i do i die to that horrid 3 dice swarm counter attack.

ive tried engaging him first with awings, didnt work. tried gallant haven, didnt work, tried my own flight controllers...didnt last long enough to use it. and all of the time i do get to engage him so its 1 vs 1 without swarm he still insta kills my ships due to the counter attack. im lucky to get more than one attack from my xwing generics if at all. the imperials can just take all elites and roflstomp just about anything the rebels could do. the rebel aces just seem highly situational for their steep price and the only good ones have escort so die fast.

the 6 dice with reroll usually nets them 2 accuracy so brace is useless. keen to see how the other rouges help the rebels out in wave 2

how gallant haven didn't work without incredible dice spikes is far beyond me.

automatic damage via fell/mauler/boba is not terribly significant against HAven. They're doing, at most, 25% health worth of damage (A-wing).

Fell in particular I found incredibly easy to circumvent (engaging so that you either don't engage him or a tie advance is really trivial with premeasuring; he has to hit you first and engage you with both squadrons and the distance 1 engagement range means he can't get most of your squadrons unless you clump up for him)

one turn of gallant haven against interceptors cancels 2 damage per interceptor (attack and counter attack), averaging 8-10 damage in my games.

even better, Haven triggers after defense tokens. This means you have to deal 3 damage to a rebel ace under Haven just to deal one damage (3 damage --> brace to 2 --> Haven to 1). This means the literal best possible roll from a 6 die interceptor (4 hits, 2 accuracies; hilariously unlikely), the unholy hand of RNGesus himself, is doing 3 damage at most. Otherwise:

5/6 hits? 2 damage.

3/4 hits? 1 damage

1/2 hits? 0 damage

I've routinely come across 6 dice interceptors with just 6 generic Xs and haven. I have yet to lose a squadron engagement; it's just simple dice versus guaranteed damage reduction.

note, that's squadron engagement; not game. The Tie Interceptors are guaranteed to lose (baring really horrible dice), but if the imperial player positions well enough to coordinate an assault of interceptors against the fighter screen and then hammer Haven with Rhymer + cap ships, he can very handily win the game by taking down Haven. Ultimate victory rests entirely on positioning, which is about what you should expect from a Distance 1 upgrade.

also, imo, the X-wing aces are pretty bleh unless you're using them under Haven to eat damage for squadrons. Wedge in particular is a very sh*tty version of Vader, and imo the points required to upgrade an X to him are better spent on flight controllers.

now Dutch is amazing, even just by himself. If he does even 1 damage, he either gets guaranteed extra damage or just completely shuts off an enemy no matter how elite.

When Wave 2 hits, Jan Ors will just be silly with Haven

well the haven didnt work in the sense that while it did keep me alive from his first hit, my xwings took 1 damage from mauler since they were together near haven then after his attacks id lost on average 2 more hits. but when i go to strike back i have to burn the advances so fell takes another point, at this point while im alive i have to activate my squadrons asap just to get another round of shooting before they certainly die to fell/counter damage. and if they dont gallent haven moves away and then they die.

i usually only get their generics and one ace down but lose everything i bring then he just flies them away to deny points. the only success ive had was all the aces and gallant but that was a huge points sink for what he was bringing just to get on level playing field. and it was pretty much just for the brace tokens, their pilot skills rarely affected the field.

I used to hate fighters until I selected more squadron commands.

Fighters are kinda bleh on their own.

Also, imperials use swarm tactics, of course they're better at working together, but that doesn't stop Dutch Vander and Wedge from being friends forever.

Any game as rebels I have ever won, has been on the coat tails of rebel fighters.

X-Wings and B-Wings, particularly when paired with Dodonna, are game changers. The right Crit sneaking through an unprotected arc can cripple a VSD. With A-Wing support allowing you to get your bombers in position, Rebel fighters are definitely worth it. Sometimes it takes a bit of a cat-and-mouse game to open up the opportunities, but if you're able to see 1 or 2 turns away, and know when to sacrifice an A-Wing squadron to free up your bombers for an attack run, you're certainly see the dividends.

I don't think I'm a fan of X-Wings on bomber duty. Three out of the red die's eight facings produce no result, which means, if my brain is working, that you expect X-Wings to miss their target outright 50% more often than A-Wings do.

Actually, not too long ago I was in the same camp, fighters (especially rebels) are meh. Imperials "cheat" by bypassing one of the greatest disadvantages of fighters, using Rhymer to increase range giving the imperial player the option to use different commands on their dials and still get use out of their fighters. And then there's Mauler and Chiraneau, completely ridiculous combo (actually, any auto-damage mechanic is poor design in my opinion, and imp have 2 already).

Now, I've changed my mind, kinda. I thought "hey, there must be a reason why you are limited to 1/3 points for fighters", and so I took max (133 on a 400 points game) with AFII as "carrier" and Yavaris to support the hard hitter. I had 2 A wings, Luke, Wedge, Dutch, Bs and quite some X. I shredded him. He came fighter-light (only Rhymer and Bombers) so the A Wings engaged those, making them useless while the rest swarmed one of his VSD. After killing the first VSD (of course it was Luke) the cloud moved over to the next VSD and did their work there.

Second game where I went fighter heavy (exchanging Dutch for another B though, because Dutch suck) I had Yavaris with a B and Luke facing a GSD on their own (Hyperspace assault, Yavaris dropping behind the GSD). Yavaris could only use flank batteries on the GSD, so the fighters had to do the job - and they did it brutally well. That one B and Luke killed the GSD within 2 turns! I was able to double tap the B twice, he completely underestimated the firepower of those two squadrons. General Dodonna was of use here of course, when Luke crit hitted I picked a nasty crit for the GSD. The cloud of XWings did again a great job vs the VSD, although I had to chew through his Ties first for 2 turns (didn't get my As fast over there fast enough to block them).

To be honest though, it's hard to use fighters well. You need a carrier, and only the AFII fits that role currently well enough if only for the first contact or to readjust when ships start to flee your fighter cloud (well, you can always throw a corvette in the way to keep that fleeing VSD in position, even dealing one damage card with that trick :-) ). Yavaris is a dream, but without expanded hangars very limited, and if you aren't able to use the effect at least twice the whole ship is overcosted in that role. While I see the use of Galant Haven, the range limitation makes it near useless - your fighters have to go after the enemy ships, and A Wings are there to keep the enemy fighters from blocking your bombers. Usage of the carrier is very tricky, you need to stay close enough to the fighters while not getting too close to his capitals.

Wedge is overpriced, I will not use him anymore (Flightcontroller is by far the better option, giving you more bonus dice with much more flexibility); Dutch is also overpriced and near useless; his ability (the Ion weapon) should have been the ability of all Y-Wings, giving Dutch something else! Y-Wings aren't worth their points either - they suck at anti-fighter and their bomber job can be done much better with Bs.

Luke on the other side is a charm and very dangerous for capitals. B-Wings are nasty as hell, if you keep them out of fighter engagement they will be pita for VSDs. Generic A- and X-Wings are the core of my fighters, with 2 As to keep his fighters at bay and as many X as I can get in.

Don't forget, it takes a VSD at least 5! turns to kill a X-Wing or B-Wing squadron. So on it's own the VSD can never hope to get rid of a fighter cloud. 4 X-Wings and 2 B-Wings are 80 points and they will kill a VSD in less than 5 turns, even without help from ships, moving over to assist in killing another capital within the span of a game.

I don't think I'm a fan of X-Wings on bomber duty. Three out of the red die's eight facings produce no result, which means, if my brain is working, that you expect X-Wings to miss their target outright 50% more often than A-Wings do.

True, and bringing As only is probably just as effective as mixing squadrons, maybe even better (math wise). But I use Gen Dodonna a lot, and you can cripple capitals fast with one or two well placed crits. Also, X-Wings can take more damage (Mauler and Fel). And I have a lot of X-Wings (core set gives you quite some), so unless you get 4+ blisters of rebel fighters you will have better access to X-Wings.

With Yavaris and Flight controllers a couple of B-Wing squadrons can tear through enemy fighters just as easily as Interceptors can

im assuming the flight controllers are on on the assault frigate? cause sadly yavaris cant have flight controllers.

the main issue im having is that the imperials will strike first due to speed, hit like a truck with 6 dice with swarm and if i survive that somehow they have 2 ways of dealing automatic hard to avoid damage via fell and mithel and soon to have a 3rd with boba fett. i just cant keep my squad alive long enough to hit back with all that auto damage, and if i do i die to that horrid 3 dice swarm counter attack.

ive tried engaging him first with awings, didnt work. tried gallant haven, didnt work, tried my own flight controllers...didnt last long enough to use it. and all of the time i do get to engage him so its 1 vs 1 without swarm he still insta kills my ships due to the counter attack. im lucky to get more than one attack from my xwing generics if at all. the imperials can just take all elites and roflstomp just about anything the rebels could do. the rebel aces just seem highly situational for their steep price and the only good ones have escort so die fast.

the 6 dice with reroll usually nets them 2 accuracy so brace is useless. keen to see how the other rouges help the rebels out in wave 2

It has been a while since I've done a game of Armada, I forgot about the Nebulon expansion limits. My favorite B-Wing Nebulon combo has two named Nebulons (Yavaris, Salvation), a support version with a turbolaser, four B-Wings, and I think 2 X-Wing squadrons.

A-Wings are an alternative to the Xs, but the Xs at least draw some shots from advancing TIEs for a few shots to allow my B-Wings to counter-attack, Especially with whatever squadrons are next to the Yavaris. Also if I put Adar Tallon there they can get a third strike.

Yeah, running Dodonna would certainly change the calculus. Even with dual Assaults I frequently run Mothma, but it's probably worth experimenting with Dodonna.

also, imo, the X-wing aces are pretty bleh unless you're using them under Haven to eat damage for squadrons. Wedge in particular is a very sh*tty version of Vader, and imo the points required to upgrade an X to him are better spent on flight controllers.

This is one of the reasons Jan is going to be amazing. Assuming Gallant haven's school of fighters is still viable at 400, suddenly you get two braces to distribute among your generics as needed (well, four if something really nuts happens in one turn).

Rebel Squadrons seem to be aimed at excelling at anti-ship roles when you look at the type of dice they can throw at ships which you don't see the Imperial counter parts doing. Even the lowly A-Wing can throw Black dice out there!

So rather than focusing on Rebel Squadrons in the fighter battle, which Imperial Squadrons are more geared for, i see them in 2 ways:

1. As a weapon extension of a ship when using the squadron command. In the case of A wings thats range 5 black dice with a persistent "poison" effect (where squadrons keep engaging the ship afterwards)

2. As land(space) mines or ship area denial. You plop your B-wings where you think his ships are going to go and either shred ships or deny that flight path.

I think it's quite thematic to how Rebel Fighters operate in the Star Wars universe where they are normally independent of a carrier and conduct raids on enemy capital ships.

The main problem players get is predicting ship movements and moving squadrons in a way that will make them effective against ships. A lot of players make the mistake of moving squadrons to the rear of side of a ship to try get those shots in, but next turn the ship flies away and now the squadrons are lefting chasing. (probably the reason why you dont see B-wings after the trap is sprung in 3rd/6th movie!)

Another problem is dealing with enemy squadrons, my belief is rebels will always have more capital ships to bear than imperials somehow are meant to pool their anti squadron dice somehow against all that 3hp ties.

I don't think I'm a fan of X-Wings on bomber duty. Three out of the red die's eight facings produce no result, which means, if my brain is working, that you expect X-Wings to miss their target outright 50% more often than A-Wings do.

Bombing is definitely not the X-Wing's primary forte, but a single red die is still good. They have 62.5% chance of inflicting a damage on a ship (while A-Wings have 75% with a black die), and out of these 62.5% chance, 25% chance of inflicting a critical hit and 12.5% chance of inflicting 2 damage. Overall, the A-Wings are more reliable with 20% more chance of inflicting a hit, but the X-Wing can inflict more raw damage especially when shields are down on a facing due to being able to resolve critical effects and with the double damage facing.

So, they're definitely not sucky for the bomber duty But they are relatively more efficient in anti-fighter (4 blue dice is good as hell !), while Y-Wings are the opposite.

Wedge is indeed a bit meh, but I feel he works well when supported properly. Pair Wedge with Dutch or Wedge with Adar Tallon for double tapping, and 6 dice suddenly become very good against bombers or Aces with Brace.

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Regarding support, I felt that the Gallant Haven was good support for fighters, but that its efficiency didn't synchronize too well with Aces (especially Aces with Brace). Most of the damage I've received is 2, and reducing it to 1 really didn't do anything for Luke and Dutch. But it was a godsend for regular squadrons.

Galant Haven will kick in after you total damage with any relevant defense tokens.

If they roll 2 hits, you can brace to 1, which will be reduced to zero with Gallant Haven.

Galant Haven will kick in after you total damage with any relevant defense tokens.

If they roll 2 hits, you can brace to 1, which will be reduced to zero with Gallant Haven.

Ah, I'll review the order with which damage is applied, you are probably right. In which case, my previous comment is moot

I am a massive dummy. I misread General Dodonna and didn't realize he worked for fighters. Ugh.