And for Warhammer Invasion, it would have been the perfect time to change.

It is the only LCG of the 3 that was designed from the beginning as an LCG. AGOT and CoC were both CCGs with existing card sets. I think AGOT players would agree that AGOT cards in the LCG were a bit inconsistent in their design direction, with cards that affect like 1 other card in the set at the time of release. So even with 3x of each card, deck building would still be extremely flawed due to the above fundamental problem. This bigger problem overshadows the smaller problem of lacking 3x each cards and lack of complimentry sets.

Warhammer had the advantage of focus, where deck building would have be possible. It would have been great if 3x are in the core set. Or, at least have the cards released separately for faction building.

There is also some concept of profit margin going on here as well.

Consider printing massive loads of cards. You need to sell them, certain price per card they need sold at and so on...

I imagine that selling the cards i the 40 card core set is some kind of marketting target which

1.) gives people access to a good product
2.) makes money for FFG still
3.) Isn't too annoying for gaming stores to carry (as far as "starters A, B, sold but starters C, and D never sell...." kinda thing.

So you're recommending that perhaps FFG should have sold a starter of, say, Orcs, with 50 cards, at how much money? 12 USD maybe? Is that enough? How would we get those fancy capitol cards and tokens?

I feel for those people who are finding the LCG not suited to their needs... but try not to be so myopic. This game was not designed for you specifically. It was designed to appeal to the largest market available while still fulfilling FFG's vision. If you want to focus on a single faction then split the game with three other people. Or just one other person. Buy a second Core Set and put the factions you don't want up for sale on eBay.

The reason why FFG discontinued the House specific starters in AGoT was because certain starters were much harder to get rid of and so game stores didn't want to carry them which eventually translated into not wanting to carry any of them which led to a loss of profit. Before the switch to LCG it was still possible to buy a couple of starters from specific Houses from FFG. That is not good. That said They have released a single House expansion for AGoT, they have another on the way. W:I has a companion set featuring the Elves coming out in the not too distant future. It is possible that you will get your wish... but even if they plan to release such sets for each faction from the beginning it would be a bad business decision to do so right now. Core Sets are selling well. People are buying all four, getting their friends involved and loaning out decks for play and convincing their friends to buy the Core Set. It makes much more sense to grab as many people as possible through this method and then introduce companion and faction sets later to pull in stragglers.

Send an email to FFG. Tell them what you want and why... being positive, polite, and siting what it is they will be getting out of it. Don't make it about you, make it about them reaching new customers. Maybe they'll listen.

I also want faction releases, for what it is worth, so don't think I'm not on your side.

Oh yeah, I don't know how much of a profit it will translate to FFG should they go ahead with it, but faction specific expansions?! I say bring it on! I can always use a House Tyrell, House Arryn, Night Watch, Dothraki Horde, Skaven, Lizardmen, Witch Hun'ers, Vampire Counts, and Tomb Kings factions to name a few, even if they are not supported by monthly released Chapter/Battle packs.

Faction starters is just 1 idea to pull my point along. If FFG has a better way of solving things, all the better.

But it would really be awesome if there is a lower entry point. Because I have in real life run into the exact problem I mentioned. People got interested and wondered if there are faction starters for their fav. faction so that they can get 1and play. Instead, I have to tell them they need to get the entire core set, which they don't want to do especially when I already have it. Add this to the fact that they really cant "build" their faction with the core set too much beyond what they have already seen from my core set... so their conclusion? They'll just play with my cards. Thus making LCG much more like a Citadels style card game.

And I can't blame them: The core set is $40 bucks. I already have it, and they can play with mine, so they don't really need it. Plus, getting it wouldn't really let them build their faction decks too much, so basically they'll be playing a very similar deck to what they already experienced from playing with my set; so even less of a reason why they should get their own.

For AGOT I can if I want to bring in cards from the old CCG days. But for W:I, this is not an option. So if anything, W:I should have the benefit of cheaper entry via some sort of complimentry packs.

Perhaps the companion set with elves and dark elves will be a bit cheaper for your players... which we have no information on lol.

Also: If other players buy the core set, trade them for some of their cards. Say get a 1 of card of theirs for one of your 2 of cards you're not using and maybe another one of your one of cards (cause you'd like new players right?)

Also in splitting the core set, those neutral cards get stretched thin, am i right?

My situation deals with AGOT, actually. But what I'm saying here in the W:I forums is that W:I should really benefit from a lower entry point, even more than AGOT and CoC since W:I has no previous card sets.

Vermillian, thanks for your suggestion. But of course, as work arounds there are plenty of things I can do. But this is not what I'm trying to get across, or the original poster I think. I think the game will benefit from having some sort of complimentry packs, so that there need not be workarounds; so the new players wouldnt need to get an entire core set and later trade with me and others to get cards they need.

This also makes me wonder if I am willing to trade if I have only 1 core set, actually. LCG being some what boardgame-like, trading out cards out doesnt seem like something I'd want to do. I just hope FFG can come up with a solution for this that works.

Maybe we'll get tournament copies of cards with alternate art or something of the like. A way to get more of the same card without buying a whole new set. We can hope!

Prize support for previous LCGs suggests that alternate or extended art promos are not likely... but those are those games, and this is this game. Maybe. Whow knows.

I have to admit I'm somewhat amazed at this. I don't know a single CCG for which a single starter, even faction-specific, is anything more than an experiment. To truly play the game almost universally requires at least a box of boosters, which will automatically include a lot of cards you don't want for whatever faction/color you're trying to play. The LCGs give you solid decks to play with, and the multiple factions are, IMHO, a very god thing - even if you only want to play dwarfs, you still have the option of including some Empire cards.

I know that's not going to convince anyone who objected in the first place, but still... Compare to most CCGs, an LCG is an incredibly good value. It's incredibly odd to me that people with multiple 5000-count boxes of Magic cards will pass on a game because the initial purchase is $40 instead of $10, even though that $10 purchase is essentially useless.

If your friends insist on using your decks rather than buying their own, just start making more decks that use all the good cards, and giving them scrub cards

I'd say the thing to consider is that the LCG model is about a single point of entry, the Core set and then monthly installments to modify your deck(s). Those people who don't want to buy a Core Set don't really want to play the game. $30 is not a large investment. Two people splitting the Core Set will get you 3x more cards for only 25% more money than buying a started deck from a CCG.

This is part of what happens when you get into a brand new game. You don't have all the options of cards to purchase. This was as true when Magic started as it is today. Tell them to wait six months and they'll have a choice of cards to buy... of course by that time you will be such a good player that you'll be stomping Texas mudholes into them.

Total cost of ownership for this game is simple to calculate.

To get 3 of every card in the initial release core-set of 131 cards will cost you $120 retail plus taxes. This gets you a total of 660 cards (many worthless draft cards and a lot of tokens ), but this gets you at least 3 of every playable card. For battle packs, provided they follow through with monthly releases (I'll believe it when I see it), it will cost $29.85 plus taxes a month to buy 3 battle packs which gets you 120 cards and at least 3 of every card released in the battle-set (3x10, 1x10, 20 unique cards, 40 total cards). For the unreleased "expansion" I'm sure you will need to buy 3 of those to get everything as well, we will guess at $15, so a total of $45.

So $120+45= $165 plus an on going $30 a month to keep up.

Nothing says you will want to purchase the expansion or every battle-pack, as they are themed purchases, so if they don't fit, don't buy 'em.

From experience dating back to 93 when Magic was released from a teacher's basement, I spent a lot more than $165+$30 a month on cards.... Most serious players buy a booster box (36 boosters) with each new set release, which costs about $143 retail to as low as $100 online and that still doesn't guarantee you get all the cards you want and at the right quantities (4 IIRC). So if you are a serious card game player this game is hands down cheaper. Now, fun-ness factor is in the eye of the beholder and I love it!

FFG was smart when they set the quantities of cards in each set/expansion/battle pack. They get people who were serious, to buy multiples of each set/expan./pack. That being said, they made it so you can still have fun and be successful buying only single copies.....

I'd expect the Expansion to be $25-30 and provide two Core Set type decks for the High Elves and Dark Elves, plus neutrals, and some cards for the other races. This is based on what FFG has released in the AGoT line already. They may certainly change it but I doubt they will do so substantially.

As to sticking to the release schedule for Battle Packs, they design, test, and print all six packs of cycle at the same time. The very first one could be slightly delayed (they seem to give them selves about a month or more of cross over between when a new set has come in to their warehouse and the previous set is about to release its last pack) but the other 5 packs will only be delayed based on your retailer and their distributor, not on FFG's end. I don't believe in the last year AGoT or CoC has had one late Chapter or Asylum Pack (though there has been a few cases of stores not getting their packs from a distributor due to their own order/delivery schedule).

Also if you have people you play with and you decide tyo confine yourself to a couple of races, it will be relatively easy most of the time to trade for second or third copies of the cards you are missing that fit your races.

And it never hurts to mention you don't need 3 of every card to be competitive in this game. You may want three to be able to build any deck you can dream up, but you won't need three to make a super effective winning deck.

That seems very expensive for getting half the product (2 races vs 4 races), no tokens, no rule book ( maybe an update / FAQ ), no draft cards. I don't see them adding other cards for the other races when thats what the battle packs are for... Thats why I guessed at half the cost, less a little more for no tokens.

The general wisdom is they underprice the Core Set the same way companies do with consoles or smart phones knowing that your video game purchases or service plan will make up the money. The Core Sets for the LCGs all cost the same. The first expansion which was a single house with a sculpted resin house card for AGoT was $29.95 MSRP The second release will also be a single house but will not include the sculpted resin house card and will be $24.95 MSRP. There is nothing indicating that the price will from that lower price, and as there are two playable Core Set styled decks I think it is more reasonable that the price may increase than decrease (though I wouldn't expect it to).

jaycsin said:

Didn't the AGoT expansion companion sets have more than just its featured faction in them? ...

It contained neutrals, plots, and then at least one card for each other faction.

I'm not even going to get copies. Just one pack or set whenever it comes out. I'll have every card at least once and I'll be able to make a lot of fun decks once a lot of packs are out. Good enough for me and far better than Magic, Yugioh etc.

Last summer I was hardcore into MtG, and I can unequivocally say that I vastly prefer WH:I's model. I'm a dirt-poor college student, and even though the initial investment in 3 starter sets for full deck-building potential was less than I would have wanted to spend ($75.00 for all three through online retailers), it doesn't touch the amount I spent just to get started in MtG (at least $200.00). I can handle $30 for 3 copies of each expansion. It levels the playing field a bit - when I played MtG, two of my friends had tons of money to throw at it, so their decks would always trounce mine. My girlfriend has even gotten into WH:I, whereas she wouldn't touch MtG (because of the financial commitment). I understand the system isn't perfect - I would love it if I didn't have to end up throwing away the extra 6 copies of some cards I'd be getting from buying 3 copies of an expansion - but ultimately, WH:I rewards good strategy and planning over financial dedication - the exact opposite of TCG's like MtG.

You know what you do with those extra 6 copies of cards?

Make demo decks out of them and give them away to truely interested players. Game on.

Yeah, I thought about doing that, actually. I've got quite a few friends who I've introduced to the game by now, and they're all getting pretty amped about it, although they can't quite afford the initial investment. Thanks for the suggestion!

On another point entirely: I find it interesting that the most powerful cards are not always the most "rare" (meaning that only one copy comes in a purchased set). Keystone Forge is a great example - powerful, cheap, and there are still 3 copies of it in the starter set. Makes me wonder how FFG determines how many copies of each card to include in a set.

Somehow on the flavour type, so there is e.g. only one hero card for each hero in the Core.