Greetings,

I have seen a lot of topics regarding "flamers being overpowered", but not in regard to Webbing Grenade... and I wonder...

True, those buggers are rated "rare", but for this you get a grenade with Blastradius(3) and a Snare(2). The later means, that everbody in said blast radius needs to pass Agility(-20) or will be SNARED. On -their- action, they can try to break free, but before that, they are considered to be HELPLESS (end of the SNARE paragraph, p.149, DH2nd Core rules)

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Weapon Skill tests made to hit unconscious or otherwise helpless targets automatically succeed with a number of degrees of success equal to the attacker’s Weapon Skill bonus. When rolling damage against such a target, roll the dice for damage twice and add the results.
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I currently think about a group having a high initiative , high BS character with webber grenades. This bugger throws the grenade at the bad guy, and if this one isn´t passig the Agility(-20) upon impact and

a) Happens to be lower in the Initiative order then the next PC
b) happens not to pass his (-20)-wiggle/burst-free-check

is ready to get it from the next NPC in the group (see rules for Helpless above).

Exchange the grenade for a webbing pistol, and things get "nasty-by-raw".

I am coming up with this while (as a GM) planning a Assasination attempt. This one-two-punch combination starts to sound mean...

As a GM, I have suffered a full campaign of tough challenges being web-grenaded, never quite mustered the sadism to use them on my players though.

Remember though, Grenades can only be thrown...what is it, Strength Bonus*2 metres? That's piddly for most people. I also implemented that Master Enemies and Daemons couldn't be snared by a Web Grenade because it's a surefire way to sizzle out the campaign finale.

Remember though, Grenades can only be thrown...what is it, Strength Bonus*2 metres? That's piddly for most people. I also implemented that Master Enemies and Daemons couldn't be snared by a Web Grenade because it's a surefire way to sizzle out the campaign finale.

*coughs* Grenade Launcher *coughs*.

Range bands apply to grenades, too. So Sbx3x4 max.

edit: Grenades have a listed range of Sb x3, not x2.

Also that.

Greetings,

I have seen a lot of topics regarding "flamers being overpowered", but not in regard to Webbing Grenade... and I wonder...

True, those buggers are rated "rare", but for this you get a grenade with Blastradius(3) and a Snare(2). The later means, that everbody in said blast radius needs to pass Agility(-20) or will be SNARED. On -their- action, they can try to break free, but before that, they are considered to be HELPLESS (end of the SNARE paragraph, p.149, DH2nd Core rules)

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Weapon Skill tests made to hit unconscious or otherwise helpless targets automatically succeed with a number of degrees of success equal to the attacker’s Weapon Skill bonus. When rolling damage against such a target, roll the dice for damage twice and add the results.

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I currently think about a group having a high initiative , high BS character with webber grenades. This bugger throws the grenade at the bad guy, and if this one isn´t passig the Agility(-20) upon impact and

a) Happens to be lower in the Initiative order then the next PC

b) happens not to pass his (-20)-wiggle/burst-free-check

is ready to get it from the next NPC in the group (see rules for Helpless above).

Exchange the grenade for a webbing pistol, and things get "nasty-by-raw".

I am coming up with this while (as a GM) planning a Assasination attempt. This one-two-punch combination starts to sound mean...

Don't forget that web weapons can be dodged. Only after the dodge attempt is failed does the target take the agility test to avoid being snared. The dodge test doesn't suffer the snare penalty.

Actually the web pistol kinda sucks relative to the grenades. Its only advantage is range. It is only snare (0), it doesn't have a blast so is easier to dodge and can only hit one target, it needs to reload while you can just quick draw a new grenade and requires exotic weapon training. The regular webber is the one that's really nasty. Blast 5 means it is literally impossible for most characters to dodge it, is far more likely to hit multiple targets even when spread out, basically can't miss since scatter for blasts is 1d5 meters and is still snare (1).

That being said, just like with flame weapons, keep your NPCs spread out and it should be manageable. If fighting in large areas have them attacking from multiple levels, distances and directions to limit how many can ever be hit at once. For fights in confined areas don't forget the danger of the party hitting each other with spray and blast weapons, so keep their relative positions in mind when thinking about the arcs and blasts. Have enemies target the ones using these super dangerous weapons and yelling about shooting the guy with the flamer or weird looking grenades. Not applicable to snare weapons but the consequences of collateral damage is another way to reign in flamers. Can't search a body for clues if its burned to ash and won't make many friends burning down half the town.

Bolas are also pretty scary considering they are pretty easy to get and are snare (1). Even low level enemies could occasionally have them and use them against the party.

Weapon Skill tests made to hit unconscious or otherwise helpless targets automatically succeed with a number of degrees of success equal to the attacker’s Weapon Skill bonus.

This actually bothers me. Someone wriggling around in a web can get auto-hit, but Surprised or Stunned characters still require the attacking character to roll? That sounds pretty inconsistent. :/

Weapon Skill tests made to hit unconscious or otherwise helpless targets automatically succeed with a number of degrees of success equal to the attacker’s Weapon Skill bonus.

This actually bothers me. Someone wriggling around in a web can get auto-hit, but Surprised or Stunned characters still require the attacking character to roll? That sounds pretty inconsistent. :/

Remember that most weapons have an auto-fail range. I believe that is what this is talking about Lynata.

Weapon Skill tests made to hit unconscious or otherwise helpless targets automatically succeed with a number of degrees of success equal to the attacker’s Weapon Skill bonus.

This actually bothers me. Someone wriggling around in a web can get auto-hit, but Surprised or Stunned characters still require the attacking character to roll? That sounds pretty inconsistent. :/

I think its a matter of degree. When stunned or surprised you're still not meant to be completely incapable of resisting and can still flinch away from the blow and may even be moving around quite a bit in the case of surprise and stumbling around dazed in the case of stunned. When caught in web or unconscious you can basically not move at all and can't pull away or resist in any way, you are completely helpless.

The weirdest thing to me is that by RAW helplessness doesn't give any to-hit bonus to Ballistic skill tests even though stunned and surprise both do, only weapon skill tests auto-hit.

The weirdest thing to me is that by RAW helplessness doesn't give any to-hit bonus to Ballistic skill tests even though stunned and surprise both do, only weapon skill tests auto-hit.

Ever heard the expression "couldn't hit the broad side of a barn door"? With a stunned or surprised target, you're expecting a moving target; there's a degree of anticipation and insight involved. With a completely stationary target, you're going solely off of your hand-eye co-ordination and marksmanship. Different ballgame.

Well, that's the best I can come up with at least, not that I believe it for a minute...

Remember that most weapons have an auto-fail range. I believe that is what this is talking about Lynata.

Well, range doesn't really factor into this -- this bonus concerns only Weapon Skill, so melee attacks. As Skarsnik mentioned, for some strange reason ranged weapons do not get any advantage at all.

To put this into perspective:

In one example, the target is Unaware/Surprised. They have no idea they are going to get a knife rammed into their backs during the next five seconds. The character behind the target still needs to roll for this attack, though at least he gets a +30 bonus.

In another example, the target is Helpless, because their legs have been bound by a bola. The character is presumably trying to shake off their bindings and very much aware they are getting attacked. Yet the character standing above the target does not need to roll, their attack automatically hits with DoS equal to their WS bonus.

I think its a matter of degree. When stunned or surprised you're still not meant to be completely incapable of resisting and can still flinch away from the blow and may even be moving around quite a bit in the case of surprise and stumbling around dazed in the case of stunned. When caught in web or unconscious you can basically not move at all and can't pull away or resist in any way, you are completely helpless.

The weirdest thing to me is that by RAW helplessness doesn't give any to-hit bonus to Ballistic skill tests even though stunned and surprise both do, only weapon skill tests auto-hit.

Probably a matter of interpretation more than degree; I'd consider someone snared by a bola or even someone fighting with a web to be more "elusive" than someone who won't even notice me until I've run my blade through their torso. But maybe this is just an issue of an overly specific target condition being used by several weapons that would actually have rather different effects.

For what it's worth, I guess I could sort of excuse the need to roll for WS against Surprised targets by counting on the target still moving in a manner that may be hard to foresee, such as conveniently having to go to the loo just when you're about to stab them. Still a bit of a stretch if we're talking stuff like sentries who most of the time really just stand there, but ...

And you make a good point about Stunned targets, of course. Perhaps "Dazed" would have been a better name for this condition, just for the sake of clarification.

The weirdest thing to me is that by RAW helplessness doesn't give any to-hit bonus to Ballistic skill tests even though stunned and surprise both do, only weapon skill tests auto-hit.

Huh.

The weirdest thing to me is that by RAW helplessness doesn't give any to-hit bonus to Ballistic skill tests even though stunned and surprise both do, only weapon skill tests auto-hit.

Ever heard the expression "couldn't hit the broad side of a barn door"? With a stunned or surprised target, you're expecting a moving target; there's a degree of anticipation and insight involved. With a completely stationary target, you're going solely off of your hand-eye co-ordination and marksmanship. Different ballgame.

Well, that's the best I can come up with at least, not that I believe it for a minute...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you really trying to argue that hitting a stationary target is harder than hitting a moving target? Cause that doesn't make any sense.

In one example, the target is Unaware/Surprised. They have no idea they are going to get a knife rammed into their backs during the next five seconds. The character behind the target still needs to roll for this attack, though at least he gets a +30 bonus.

In another example, the target is Helpless, because their legs have been bound by a bola. The character is presumably trying to shake off their bindings and very much aware they are getting attacked. Yet the character standing above the target does not need to roll, their attack automatically hits with DoS equal to their WS bonus.

I think its a matter of degree. When stunned or surprised you're still not meant to be completely incapable of resisting and can still flinch away from the blow and may even be moving around quite a bit in the case of surprise and stumbling around dazed in the case of stunned. When caught in web or unconscious you can basically not move at all and can't pull away or resist in any way, you are completely helpless.

The weirdest thing to me is that by RAW helplessness doesn't give any to-hit bonus to Ballistic skill tests even though stunned and surprise both do, only weapon skill tests auto-hit.

Probably a matter of interpretation more than degree; I'd consider someone snared by a bola or even someone fighting with a web to be more "elusive" than someone who won't even notice me until I've run my blade through their torso. But maybe this is just an issue of an overly specific target condition being used by several weapons that would actually have rather different effects.

For what it's worth, I guess I could sort of excuse the need to roll for WS against Surprised targets by counting on the target still moving in a manner that may be hard to foresee, such as conveniently having to go to the loo just when you're about to stab them. Still a bit of a stretch if we're talking stuff like sentries who most of the time really just stand there, but ...

And you make a good point about Stunned targets, of course. Perhaps "Dazed" would have been a better name for this condition, just for the sake of clarification.

bolas are a bit odd. It seems like they probably shouldn't have the same effect as web weapons. A bolas being able to consistently wrap up both someones arms and legs is weird. Any depiction I've ever seen of bolas they generally aren't long enough to wrap arms and legs at the same time and usually are shown as being used to tie up legs and trip someone up. If anything they should probably either make the targets legs useless or make their arms useless depending on where they hit but not make tied or webbed up.

Alongside the fact that the target is most likely at least partially mobile, you can also justify the need for the roll to hit against a surprised target as representing that they need to be attacked a particular way in order to not give away the attack too early. Considering the size of the bonuses for hitting unaware and stunned targets they are practically auto hits anyway. Just giving the chance for suboptimal conditions, jams, a screw up by the attacker, or sheer dumb luck to help them.

Considering the size of the bonuses for hitting unaware and stunned targets they are practically auto hits anyway. Just giving the chance for suboptimal conditions, jams, a screw up by the attacker, or sheer dumb luck to help them.

True, true. I guess I just don't see why the same couldn't apply to a "Helpless" target -- as long as they are not entirely immobilised but still "wriggling", as the description puts it, anyways.

Weapon Skill tests made to hit unconscious or otherwise helpless targets automatically succeed with a number of degrees of success equal to the attacker’s Weapon Skill bonus.

This actually bothers me. Someone wriggling around in a web can get auto-hit, but Surprised or Stunned characters still require the attacking character to roll? That sounds pretty inconsistent. :/

That reminded me of something from D&D (4th) enemies who are helpless, surprised, flanked , etc.. They grant combat advantage (i.e bonus to hit them) But when they are Prone: i.e. they are knocked down lying on the ground,they also grant combat adavantage but they get bonus defense against range attacks as they are harder to hit from a distance.

I suppose with unaware/surprised the target is standing up and when tehy are trussed up like a Turkey with bola/webber they are lying on the ground maybe rolling back and forth (funny) or into cover (smart) and being harder to hit.

Would a webbed enemy get bonus AP because of the near unbreakable webbing covering him/her/it?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you really trying to argue that hitting a stationary target is harder than hitting a moving target? Cause that doesn't make any sense.

I did mention that I didn't believe it for a minute! It was just the best explanation I could come up with and it's probably about as good an answer as any to the incongruity of a stunned/surprised target granting a to-hit bonus while a helpless one does not.

Seeing as you appear to have taken me seriously and for the fun of trying to argue a case I don't agree with...

You're right; hitting a moving target is almost certainly going to be harder than hitting a stationary one. Having said that, let's look at the scenario. You've got a bunch of dudes in a firefight, all moving around, shooting at each other, diving for cover and so forth. It's a firefight. Suddenly, someone whips out this grenade and chucks it into the mix. Gooey webbing erupts and pins several guys to the ground. You, who were tracking your now-webbed and helpless target in your sights, realise that he's suddenly stopped moving. You were expecting him to be there , but because he's stopped suddenly, webbed, he's actually here . You not only have to readjust your aim, but you also have to compensate for the smaller profile he presents (assuming he's prone), meaning that any bonus you would have gained for his stationary nature is lost in that compensation.

You were expecting him to be there , but because he's stopped suddenly, webbed, he's actually here . You not only have to readjust your aim, but you also have to compensate for the smaller profile he presents (assuming he's prone), meaning that any bonus you would have gained for his stationary nature is lost in that compensation.

On the other hand, this "confusion" should not last longer than a single round of combat -- and even this is a stretch, considering that a turn was said to last 8 seconds or so. And should this not affect melee combatants also?

It just doesn't appear very .. elegantly thought-out if you compare the various effects to one another. They all make sense when regarded individually, but as soon as you look at the greater whole, things just seem to fall apart.

On the other hand, this "confusion" should not last longer than a single round of combat -- and even this is a stretch, considering that a turn was said to last 8 seconds or so. And should this not affect melee combatants also?

Yeah, I really don't have any come-back to that. I must have written and deleted half a dozen paragraphs trying to come up with some excuse for after the first round, but nothing stuck as being even half-way plausible, let alone being able to come up with something applicable to every situation involving being helpless!

It's just one of the many incongruities in the rules; change it or leave it as it is, it's you and your groups call at the end of the day.

Sounds like room for a houserule.

Unaware: +30 (melee and ranged)

Stunned: +20 (melee and ranged)

Helpless: Autohit melee, +30 ranged.

I think this makes sense. Shooting an unmoving target is still hard, whereas hitting it with an axe is absurdly easy. As for the unaware difference, in this case, you're getting a good hit in, as opposed to helpless, where you can just beat them over and over with a club in rapid succession.

If you step away from 1-hit is literally a single contact of weapon to baddie (for melee), this works out pretty well.

Well, if you're standing directly in front of the target, the difference of using your stick for poking them or shooting them should be fairly minimal.

The interpretation of the melee attack referring to one hit out of multiple attempts is pretty genius, though! After all, I recall melee combat being described as a back and forth and a flurry of blows with lots of movement from both the attacker and the attacked. If the attacked cannot move, this should indeed allow the attacker to either swing their weapon multiple times, or just take one or two moments in readiness until they're sure their attack would hit.

With stunned targets, the same condition would not apply because the target could still attempt to move out of the way, however awkwardly, and a surprised target would react as soon as you botch your first swing.

I doubt anyone will ever describe the auto-hit this way, but it does set my mind at ease that I could justify it like that.

Well, range doesn't really factor into this -- this bonus concerns only Weapon Skill, so melee attacks. As Skarsnik mentioned, for some strange reason ranged weapons do not get any advantage at all.

Well, he's at Point Blank Range, so there is that.

Edit: Well, he could be. Now I see your point. Never-mind

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you really trying to argue that hitting a stationary target is harder than hitting a moving target? Cause that doesn't make any sense.

I did mention that I didn't believe it for a minute! It was just the best explanation I could come up with and it's probably about as good an answer as any to the incongruity of a stunned/surprised target granting a to-hit bonus while a helpless one does not.

Seeing as you appear to have taken me seriously and for the fun of trying to argue a case I don't agree with...

You're right; hitting a moving target is almost certainly going to be harder than hitting a stationary one. Having said that, let's look at the scenario. You've got a bunch of dudes in a firefight, all moving around, shooting at each other, diving for cover and so forth. It's a firefight. Suddenly, someone whips out this grenade and chucks it into the mix. Gooey webbing erupts and pins several guys to the ground. You, who were tracking your now-webbed and helpless target in your sights, realise that he's suddenly stopped moving. You were expecting him to be there , but because he's stopped suddenly, webbed, he's actually here . You not only have to readjust your aim, but you also have to compensate for the smaller profile he presents (assuming he's prone), meaning that any bonus you would have gained for his stationary nature is lost in that compensation.

You may have said you didn't believe it but you still offered it as a possible explanation nonetheless. Didn't necessarily think you were being serious but still felt it worth pointing out that it was absurd.

In relation to your mention of prone, that penalty would still apply. "any bonus you would have gained for his stationary nature is lost in compensation"- its not lost in compensation because the prone penalty still applies on top further highlighting that their should be a bonus to at least cancel out that penalty. Why is a prone target who is still conscious and fighting back the same difficulty to hit as one that's pinned motionless or completely unconscious.

I don't remember for sure but I believe my GM gave us a +30 when this came up.

So another interesting question, it seems pretty likely that a target snared by a bolas would fall and be prone but would a character hit by webbing be knocked prone or more just stuck in place? Neither snare nor helpless actually knock prone on their own. I can picture someone being snared in web without being pinned to the ground.