Adam France said:

It sure sounds like just another counter-monkey's opinion.

Besides your point is kind of invalid here, because many GW stores don't stock everything from their production line. If I were to go to my local stor I wouldn't be able to buy any Battlefleet Gothic miniatures, hardly any Inquisitor miniatures, nothing for Mordheim nor for Necromunda. Selections of Forge World books would also be severely limited. The same goes for black library litterature.

In fact, most GW stores primarily stock merchandise for Warhammer, Warhammer 40.000 and the Lord of the Rings gaming systems, along with citadel hobby material (glue, paints, brushes, undercoat, tools etc.) and nothing else.

So it's not a "dislike of rpgs" being the issue. Many individual stores just don't have the space to stock everything that GW produces or is affiliated with, and the fact that they don't even stock major portions of GW's own merchandise (BFG, Mordheim, Necromunda) only confirms this...

I've encountered a number of GW stores that were fairly anti-RPG, and were down right insulting about it. Focus is all well and good for making a profit, but GW stores are often insane about it. The cross over of the TT, and the RPG groups is huge. Yes you don't make the profit margin on the RPGers, but they miss out on at least selling an occasional copy of WFRPG, or DH/RT.

Dalnor Surloc said:

That's a matter of the individual staff, not company policy. Most of my DH playtest group, and most of the actual campaign group that followed it, was comprised of former or current GW staff, and while the stores don't support the games, it's a matter of product focus rather than specific disdain - with limited shelf space and stock quantities and composition determined by the head office rather than the stores themselves, GW stores will focus almost exclusively on the three core ranges. Similar applies to the gaming tables - a limited amount of table space, and the fact that games in progress are the best way to show off their products mean that by gaming in store, you're acting as an advert for their products, and thus the inclination is to advertise the most available products. Like and dislike have nothing to do with it - GW stores aren't (and fundamentally can't be) run like FLGS, afterall, being a large chain that has to essentially support an almost self-contained company which is responsible to its shareholders - it's a matter of practicality and focus.

I think you'll all have to agree that GW's anally-retentive control over their IP seems odd and baffling to us Americans. It's well-known that they issue scripted responses to questions like:

Why isn't there a 40k movie?

Why don't you stock Forge World except in "Bunker" stores?

Why aren't there more "Bunker" stores? I gotta drive 8 hours to get to one....

Why don't you support Specialist more? (BFG, INQ, Necromunda, Mordheim...)

The stark truth is, they've not been doing so hot the last several quarters (even before the Recession) and don't want to take any focus or Capital resources away from their bread&butter products which are WH and WH40k.

I understand that, but I really want a plastic kit with:

Several torsos/legs/arms in male and female...

Lots of just equipment accessories and weapons. Maybe not even weapons as I have buttloads, but there are some weapons of the more exotic type that can only be found on older miniatures or old plastic kits that aren't made anymore. Autoguns/Autopistols/Stubbers/Neuro Disruptors/Eldar Lasweapons etc.

GW said specifically they're getting away from metal altogether. Soon only a very few specialty minis will be metal, which is fine with me. Their plastics are excellent detail and convertability.

Let us bow our heads in prayer.

Mighty Emperor of Mankind, look with favor upon your devoted RPG gamers and bless us with a new plastic Mini kit thus for us to better represent your non-military Imperial citizens and Imperial Servants....

All those questions do have answers, however...

Maxim C. Gatling said:

There is. It just isn't out yet...

Maxim C. Gatling said:

In the UK, Forge World products are only available 'over the counter' from Warhammer World in Nottingham (along with everything from mail order), and that's only because the store is in the same building complex as the design studio, Black Library's offices, the factory, Forge World, etc, etc.

The reason behind it? Forge World is technically a separate company owned by the "GW Group"; it's something to do with anti-monopoly laws, IIRC. Forge World are required to produce and supply their products separately from Games Workshop.

Maxim C. Gatling said:

Stores are expensive to run, large stores moreso, and it takes time to establish them. There are approximately 3 stores per county in the UK, but it's taken decades to get to that point... GW have been operating within the US for a much shorter period of time.

Maxim C. Gatling said:

Resources. Specialist Games support comes from the staff and budgets of the central Design Studio - the sculptors and writers who produce the core games and accompanying ranges - whose time and efforts are focussed on producing releases for those core ranges. Getting more Specialist Games releases either requires dividing up those designers' time even more than it already is, or requires hiring additional staff to deal with the Specialist Games exclusively. The Specialist Games simply don't make enough money compared to the core ranges, or in relation to the effort required to support them properly, to make this worthwhile (games like Blood Bowl in particular, while hugely successful, don't fare well long-term from a sales perspective - once you've got a team, you really don't need anything more). As with the collector's and direct-sales-only models, Specialist Games get new model releases as and when the miniatures designers choose to do something as an additional project.

I don't like it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

Maxim C. Gatling said:

Soon is a very loose term. Plastic models are still expensive to produce (because you need precision-tooled steel moulds), and need large quantities to be sold in order to make money on them (less so than was once the case, but still not a small matter by any stretch). A good chunk of GW's financial difficulties are a matter of them upgrading their facilities to allow for faster, cheaper and more effective design, something for which the benefits won't really roll in for a while yet. As it is, a plastic kit's viability depends on it being purchased a lot (which is why most of them are core units for the various armies - units which an army will need lots of) and things which are likely to appear in most armies at least once. By comparison, a pack of RPG-specific miniatures would essentially be sold to only the portion of players and GMs who want to use miniatures in their games, and for players would typically only be purchased once (for a single character). Doesn't seem quite as worthwhile, IMO, from a business perspective, particularly as GW don't support RPGs (and won't allow FFG to produce miniatures, presumably to avoid potential competition from a licensee)

Maxim C. Gatling said:

Good points, N0-1, but my point was from an American point of view, it's weird. Also, that the scripted responses they give at American GW stores are designed to insult your intelligence and get you to shut up and buy more paintbrushes. Example, here are actual responses I've gotten from GW employees:

Why isn't there a 40k movie?

"Because then kids will buy the games and miniatures, which will provide a surge in demand, but then 80-90% of them will give up on the hobby after a while after the movie hype is over."

This, of course is ridiculous. What about the 10-20% who continue in the hobby? If they already know this, why can't they figure that into production? Movie marketing is where all the cash is, haven't they seen SpaceBalls?!?

Why don't you stock Forge World except in "Bunker" stores?

"Forge World doesn't allow it." or "We don't have room."

First one is bunk, the second one is get out of the freaking high-rent Mall and move to a cheaper, larger and more accessible location. GW stores should NOT be located in Malls.

Why aren't there more "Bunker" stores? I gotta drive 8 hours to get to one....

The real reason is that GW and FW won't allow them. Why I'm not sure. This is America and if I had the capital, normally I could buy a Franchise...but they won't allow that for some reason. Example: I understand why B&N aren't allowed to carry GW games/minis, but why can't Independent Stockists carry Forge World or Black Library products? Isn't the point of being in business to sell as much product as possible?

Why don't you support Specialist more? (BFG, INQ, Necromunda, Mordheim...)

"The suits don't like RPG's for some reason."

While that's probably not a scripted response (!), I quite understand the financial reasons. Again, if their product wasn't so difficult to obtain, perhaps they could hire more designers/sculptors/etc.

The KEY is, (and GW has never figure this out) CROSS-MERCHANDISING . (Gasp!) You see it in the grocery store all the time. You sell more artichokes AND Mayonaisse if you stock them right next to each other. They have to make minis multi-purpose/multi-game.

Example: BFG minis can now be used in 3 games. THREE! BFG, RT and DH. Would make sense for them to pump out a few extra this month, eh? Perhaps make them more accessible? Throw a bone and put out a new one just to remind everyone they need them? They won't though because experience tells me British businessmen don't think this way.

In the olden days, Rogue Traders had their own WH40k army lists. Yep. They really did! Guess what? You could make RT/DH/40k players all happy with a new kit and a new Codex .... Lots of people don't want to start a whole new army...but then again a lot of people DO. Especially an RT army where you could use lots of your existing figures. Who wouldn't want an army where you could combine specialist troops, tanks, IG, and Space Marines?!? You'd normally have to play Armageddeon to be able to do that.

See? It makes sense... Business sense. It really does.

http://www.ultramarinesthemovie.com/news

I'm impressed. This is a good sign. I hate the Ultramarines, but that's beside the point.... I'll be buying a DVD.

Adam France said:

You do have a point here. Remember DH pre-orders sold out months before the game was actually printed....then BL sold the entire thing to FFG.

I mean...you HAVE a winner...you just sell it off and wash your hands of it?

As a Capitalist, I just find it weird that they don't support their own IP...especially when the product sells out! So what if FFG "made" it? They're collecting some sort of Royalty I assume. They can't spare one rack to hold half a dozen books in their stores? It's just odd.

Maxim C. Gatling said:

You're basing your assumptions a bit too much on hindsight right now.

Back then the GW group had to do some serious downsizing due to their financial situation. It wasn't just Dark Heresy that had to go, but the production of WFRP and other productlines as well.

At the time, it probably was the right decision to make. Sometimes you just can't keep production of certain goods around because it might sell well in the future...

You're probably right there. The decision to farm it out was probably months before, but after BL had done most of the footwork.

However, I've been thinking... Why not a Rogue Trader army for 40k? They had army lists for them at one time..(back in the Book of the Astronomicon I believe).

Heck, I'd buy the Codex. Think of it...a highly convertable plastic kit with bits to make a Rogue Trader (or three) and each of the "Henchmen" Archeotypes. Figure it'd be a $40-$50 kit. Then troops, a.k.a. Space Marines and IG.

That way you have minis that could be used for 40k, DH, INQ, and RT. I think it's a winner. Naturally, Dark Eldar and both of the Inquisitor armies are already slated for re-vamping, so if it ever happened it'd be at least a year in the making.

I'm getting ready to start on a rogue trader's private army conversion for tabletop 40k. I'm going to utilize a lot of fantasy Imperial peices and a lot of IG peices to create a rag-tag crew of heavily armed space-pirate-looking guys, complete with a rogue trader and is bizzarre entourage. I'll probably use the witch-hunter army list, and just take troopers instead of Battle sisters. I might even use an Eldar Pathfinder or two as snipers or assassins. I may use an aquila lander or a arvus lighter as a center-piece.

Maxim C. Gatling said:

You aren't seeing the whole picture, all of the factors involved.

First of all - and most importantly - is the fact that GW and RPG distributors have a somewhat competitive relationship. As a result many distributors and FLGS simply refuse outright to stock anything that is available in a GW store. Imagine you saw RT in your FLGS - you pick it up, like it, anxiously wait for the next supplement. You realise that the local GW store is more likely to have it before your FLGS, so you pop down there to get it instead (and while there you maybe pick up some minis). Basically the FLGS acted as an advertiser for GW - they don't like doing that. Hence the unofficial GW boycott.

So, GW have a choice - they can sell RT and DH products through RPG distributors, or in their own stores - not both. They know that these books will sell far more slowly in their own stores and aren't as profitable as their other products... .so why bother?

There are plenty of other factors as well. Selling even one rack of books in each of their stores worldwide is a massive number of books - possibly as much as half the existing print run of books. Most of those books will probably be bought by the same RPG players who would have bought them in the FLGS anyway - you are just forcing them to buy them in the GW store. You may even lose some of those customers, who would have bought them if they were in the FLGS. The few extra sales you'll make to your wargame customers doens't really justify the added expence of a larger print run, or even of the logistical cost to sending those books to all of your stores. And (of course) there's the fact that not all of your staff will actually know how to describe an RPG to their customers... "uh, it's like 40k... except you don't use minis (?) and you only have one special character and no units... except for one guy, who has as many as he wants!!!"

Ultimately it is about product placement. The best place to sell RPG books is in RPG stores. You sell the product directly to those customers who want them the most. Selling them in GW stores just isn't as profitable.

macd21 said:

Can't say I agree completely.

We have a store over here that sells basically anything a nerd could want. (Boardgames, RPG's, GW products, other miniature combat games, movies, anime, manga etc. etc.) And they are sort of the local authority on these types of products.

And also, buying warhammer there is actually cheaper than going to the GW-store located in the same city. I usually buy my GW products at the first store, only going to the GW-store if I find out that the first store has run out of something I need.

Apparently GW-stores don't sell their products as cheap as they possibly could, since this other store also have an extensive selection of GW-products and sell them off at a cheaper price. But then again, GW are quite known for their bloodsucker tendencies as a company...

Maybe the models in that photo are so large because they are sculpts, or do the artists always sculpt to actual size?

Deadline247 said:

It depends. But normally they do first draft sculpts in larger size before moving on to making "greens" that are the same size as the complete mini will be.

Varnias Tybalt said:

I'm not sure how that contradicts my point. RPGers go to the FLGS above, not the GW store (it's just that GW customers also go to the FLGS as well...). The best place for GW to place their RPG product in this case is clearly the FLGS.

oh no...its D.H,2nd ed! by F.F.Gs!!

KONRAD said:

?????????

macd21 said:

sorry,the pics above remind me of WFRP 3rd ed.

Deadline247 said:

They don't always sculpt to actual size. I saw John Blanche sculpting a Juggernaught which was pretty huge, which ended up being the Juggernaught for the original plastic Epic set. So basically, the sculpt was about 800-1000% bigger than the finished product.

I'm just guessing here, but I think they were experimenting at the time with scanning sculpts, digitizing them and then having a computer carve them out of a block of wax in a different scale. It was in the early 90's.