Sorry, wrong FORUM

You know what? I wasted this spot, but since I can't delete it all, I'll just easily re-purpose it for some other, more RT-themed questions, equally as pointless as this was.

1. Rational Thinkers. Are there any organizations of "atheist free-thinkers" out in the Expanse? One of the weirdest little things in 40K, to me, has been how whole worlds, maybe whole sectors, are lost for a time, completely split off from the Imperium (the Ecclesiarchy, the AdMech, all of those people), and yet they keep working. There are worlds out there, with working machines, who, if the AdMech has been as lost from them as the rest of the Imperium, either shouldn't have those devices, or who had to figure out how they work, but without all the hidebound, religious trappings, sort of like Earth Caste Tau, or real machinists and technicians now. They would have developed in a much more scientific vacuum, separated from the chanting, the incense, and all that, and either the tech really needed it, and broke down, or it didn't, and they can be scientists, without being priests. Are there any named institutions, heretical though they may be, out there, before I just invent one for convenience? I have an Inquisitor, and she specializes in the Tau, from the Reach. In my story, she gets called back to here when Tau are discovered in the Koronus Expanse, and as an Oblationist OX Inquisitor, she has some Tau gear on her. When she conducts boarding actions against the Tau, I'm thinking of having her have been snatching sample Tau stuff, like her pulse pistols, and some components of their suit-tech (hoping it will culminate in a cobbled-together, light, Longstrike's XV02 suit-like thing, but with something like the XV22's stealth unit included; she's "an HQ", and as likely to become a villain, so I feel no shame there for her bits of cheese. So, she'd need a small group of technical-minded people, who are smart enough to work with Imperial, and maybe even the lower end of Tau tech, maybe be able to tinker with, or modify their stuff, even if they often break it, but without all the stuff that goes with the AdMech, their shouting about tech-heresy, and their hoarding all the goodies; she's an oblationist, this fits her, and she'd probably just off her allies later, as they are hereteks. Places like the Reach and the Expanse, it just feels like their should be some of these people, and now the Admech returns, and has to stamp them all out. Any thoughts on the group, as an already-established thing i just missed, or just say "this is the _________, and they exist"?
   
2. The Imperial Creed. So, once there was an Emperor of Mankind, and He actually walked among Mankind. At one crucial point, He had to sit down, and He's still there. While He's been out of commission, His Imperium has changed drastically, from an atheist state of logic and cold reason to what we have now. 10,000 years is a long time, I grant, but are there really NO traces of doctrine from back then? I'm sure it got brought up before, but could it be possible to find a ship, or something, with a data trove of stuff from before the Heresy, or at least the Siege of Terra, describing any of what the Emperor actually intended? I can imagine a ship, long lost in the warp, and only recently spat back out, could be from any time, and contain information about then, which would scare many people, if it came to light. Might ANY such records still exist? Did even the Astartes forget the truth? If you did actually find any, would the info be considered heresy? Sort of ironic, if it were.

Okay, I'm done. Now, we'll see if anyone comes by to actually see this, and note that I pirated my own post into something else. Have a good one, all.

Well, color me needy. I guess I will post something here, to see if anyone happens to wonder, and comes back to this. Here's hoping...

You could also just post a link to your other thread in order to focus any discussion on a singular topic.

[edit] Just seen you've changed your post. Sneaky! Is there no way to edit the topic as well?

1. The Koronus Expanse is noted as having civilisations separated since the DAoT. So it's possible there are atheist civilisations. The trouble for them is that the evidence is *against* their position. And remember what happened to "enlightened" worlds who didn't oppress newly made psykers. They were mostly devoured by daemons or devastated. There are very serious pitfalls awaiting the tolerant, open-minded types in 40k.

2. Ten thousand years is a long time. A long time for the powers that be in the Imperium to promote the idea of the God-Emperor, and to bury every obvious scrap of evidence to the contrary. When worlds get burned over differences in doctrine, followers of the "Imperial Truth" would be hunted into oblivion. The Temple of the Saviour Emperor get exposed and burned at intrevals, and their beliefs are not so different to the mainstream Ecclesiarchy.

Are there any organizations of "atheist free-thinkers" out in the Expanse?

Fortunately, the Expanse would be perfect for such a discovery.

There are worlds out there, with working machines, who, if the AdMech has been as lost from them as the rest of the Imperium, either shouldn't have those devices, or who had to figure out how they work, but without all the hidebound, religious trappings, sort of like Earth Caste Tau, or real machinists and technicians now.

Well, going by Necromunda , Imperial citizens on Hive worlds are fairly self-sufficient when it comes to operating technology. The AdMech may seek a monopoly on machines there, but on worlds such as these this may simply not be possible, both for political (other Imperial Adepta would blockade large-scale Tech-Guard purges) as well as logistical (there's not enough AdMech to keep an entire hive's economy running smoothly) reasons.

While He's been out of commission, His Imperium has changed drastically, from an atheist state of logic and cold reason to what we have now. 10,000 years is a long time, I grant, but are there really NO traces of doctrine from back then?

The beauty of the Expanse, though, is that it was settled during the Dark Age of Technology - before the Great Crusade, before the Adeptus and the High Lords, and before the deification of the Emperor. As such I think it's entirely possible that a colony was founded by a group of atheists and free-thinkers with an entirely unique political structure.

The answer to 1 and 2 are actually the same. No, because rationality is a lie.

The 40K Setting is one where magic is real, souls are real, Gods are real and they want to devour everything that exists including and especially you. The Imperial Truth was created as an attempt to try to "starve" Chaos to death by eliminating belief, but it didn't work because the Gods actually do exist and can grant miracles, and daemons do exist and possess people and are impossible, and Psykers do exist and can stab you soul, or trap you in a gem. It's insane, and terrifying, and that's the real reason why atheistic free-thinkers are so dangerous.

The Gods are real . Or at least beings that are so much like Gods there is no fundamental difference. The Imperial Truth and Faith in the Emperor is needed at this point because the Eye of Terror is populated by people who so slavishly believe in Chaos now that if you don't have Faith in the Emperor to sustain you, no matter how strong minded you are you can get screwed because someone sneezed while speaking, accidentally pronounced the true name of a Daemon, and now you're possessed and wearing the skin of everyone that you knew.

It's been taken too far, where Faith has spread to every part of an Imperial citizen's life, but consider that a Galaxy-wide Empire has stood the test of time for 10,000 years with only two major insurrections. That's honestly impressive and horrifying. Their faith-based system of government works .

Sorry, wrong FORUM

You know what? I wasted this spot, but since I can't delete it all, I'll just easily re-purpose it for some other, more RT-themed questions, equally as pointless as this was.

1. Rational Thinkers. Are there any organizations of "atheist free-thinkers" out in the Expanse? One of the weirdest little things in 40K, to me, has been how whole worlds, maybe whole sectors, are lost for a time, completely split off from the Imperium (the Ecclesiarchy, the AdMech, all of those people), and yet they keep working. There are worlds out there, with working machines, who, if the AdMech has been as lost from them as the rest of the Imperium, either shouldn't have those devices, or who had to figure out how they work, but without all the hidebound, religious trappings, sort of like Earth Caste Tau, or real machinists and technicians now. They would have developed in a much more scientific vacuum, separated from the chanting, the incense, and all that, and either the tech really needed it, and broke down, or it didn't, and they can be scientists, without being priests. Are there any named institutions, heretical though they may be, out there, before I just invent one for convenience? I have an Inquisitor, and she specializes in the Tau, from the Reach. In my story, she gets called back to here when Tau are discovered in the Koronus Expanse, and as an Oblationist OX Inquisitor, she has some Tau gear on her. When she conducts boarding actions against the Tau, I'm thinking of having her have been snatching sample Tau stuff, like her pulse pistols, and some components of their suit-tech (hoping it will culminate in a cobbled-together, light, Longstrike's XV02 suit-like thing, but with something like the XV22's stealth unit included; she's "an HQ", and as likely to become a villain, so I feel no shame there for her bits of cheese. So, she'd need a small group of technical-minded people, who are smart enough to work with Imperial, and maybe even the lower end of Tau tech, maybe be able to tinker with, or modify their stuff, even if they often break it, but without all the stuff that goes with the AdMech, their shouting about tech-heresy, and their hoarding all the goodies; she's an oblationist, this fits her, and she'd probably just off her allies later, as they are hereteks. Places like the Reach and the Expanse, it just feels like their should be some of these people, and now the Admech returns, and has to stamp them all out. Any thoughts on the group, as an already-established thing i just missed, or just say "this is the _________, and they exist"?

I imagine any form of technological lack of religiouness is quickly and totally stripped out over generations. Remember, the religiousness isn't just because the techpriests are run by a bunch of people with immortal bodies but rotting brains, but because it gives them a clear and distinct advantage, an irreplacability. They crack the **** down on anybody deviating because they want to keep their monopoly. I imagine that there's quite a few different ways that the mechanicus diverges all over the ******* place across the galaxy, just as the imperial cult does really. They probably use the same methods that the missionaries do ultimately.

Also keep in mind that due to how the dark age of technology was created, mostly through self improving AI that were allied with humanity and thus several orders smarter than normal humans, there are -massive- ******* gaps in scientific knowledge going on here. Most worlds are filled with people who are basically monkies with a machine that dispenses bannannas when they hit a button. They have no idea how or why the bannanna comes into being, it just does when they hit the button, so they do their best to keep the bannanna making machine as intact and same as it ever was and never deviate from it, because they literally do not have the 10,000 years worth of background knowledge necessary to build the bannanna machine from first principles.

That's the big issue with the whole thing, most worlds would have to work from first principles, and they simply cannot do so because they lack the background knowledge necessary, so instead they use mimicry and basic maintanenance without ever truly understanding -how- the **** thing works actually.

But groups of them would be, for example, the cults in control of the giant walking war cities who can maintain their **** and probably have some sciencing going on there. But their very nature would make them easy to introduce and indoctrinate into the machine cult.

Remember the Astartes largely remember him as a man, not a god. And they look down heavily on the eclisiarchy. I'd not be surprised if most of their upper ranks are entirely in the know, but like the higher ranks of the inquisition, they dare not enact his actual will because to do so would tear the Imperium apart in a catastrophic holy civil war.

No, because rationality is a lie. The 40K Setting is one where magic is real, souls are real, Gods are real and they want to devour everything that exists including and especially you. The Imperial Truth was created as an attempt to try to "starve" Chaos to death by eliminating belief, but it didn't work because the Gods actually do exist and can grant miracles, and daemons do exist and possess people and are impossible, and Psykers do exist and can stab you soul, or trap you in a gem. It's insane, and terrifying, and that's the real reason why atheistic free-thinkers are so dangerous.

That is one way to view the setting, but it must not be the only one!

Personally, I prefer a more rationale and scientific "truth" that has simply been packaged into millennia of lies and superstition. I find this more realistic and thus more terrifying as it seems more real than a entirely fantastic setting where things just happen "because magic".

For me, in 40k, it all comes back to the Warp as a source of psychic phenomena. A sort of primordial soup inhabiting an underlying dimension, where a constant flow of emotions and thoughts takes forms that can occasionally leak into realspace. It's still supernatural -- but to me, it sounds more believable simply because stuff like telepathy and telekinesis are at least being investigated by real world science (including state agencies), and thus just seems more solid than outright magic where sorcerers snap their fingers and things happen just because.

The SoB's own codex called out the Sororitas' so-called miracles as being results of "misinterpretation by the unschooled" and "products of mass hallucination". Humanity blindly stumbles through a second Dark Age where scientific principles get twisted by religious doctrine, to the point where people have to say a prayer before hitting the sacred "ON" rune on their antigrav-speeder, and where a simple calculator gets called a "machine spirit" because most people come from cultures so technologically degenerated they have no idea why something happens if you press a button.

This is what's part of the Grimdark to me. Actually validating these crazy beliefs as if they'd serve a purpose rather than being based on lies and superstition alone would take something away from the setting.

But this is very much a matter of personal preferences, and as we can see from the popularity of the Horus Heresy novels, there's a lot of people who enjoy a "high fantasy" version of the setting too. Both our interpretations are equally valid.

Remember the Astartes largely remember him as a man, not a god. And they look down heavily on the eclisiarchy. I'd not be surprised if most of their upper ranks are entirely in the know, but like the higher ranks of the inquisition, they dare not enact his actual will because to do so would tear the Imperium apart in a catastrophic holy civil war.

Indeed -- most of them, anyways. The Black Templars are one of the most well known exceptions in that they are best buddies with the Ecclesiarchy and the Sororitas in particular. At least in their GW books.

Also, +1 @ "monkies with a machine that dispenses bananas if they press a button"

No, because rationality is a lie. The 40K Setting is one where magic is real, souls are real, Gods are real and they want to devour everything that exists including and especially you. The Imperial Truth was created as an attempt to try to "starve" Chaos to death by eliminating belief, but it didn't work because the Gods actually do exist and can grant miracles, and daemons do exist and possess people and are impossible, and Psykers do exist and can stab you soul, or trap you in a gem. It's insane, and terrifying, and that's the real reason why atheistic free-thinkers are so dangerous.

That is one way to view the setting, but it must not be the only one!

Personally, I prefer a more rationale and scientific "truth" that has simply been packaged into millennia of lies and superstition. I find this more realistic and thus more terrifying as it seems more real than a entirely fantastic setting where things just happen "because magic".

For me, in 40k, it all comes back to the Warp as a source of psychic phenomena. A sort of primordial soup inhabiting an underlying dimension, where a constant flow of emotions and thoughts takes forms that can occasionally leak into realspace. It's still supernatural -- but to me, it sounds more believable simply because stuff like telepathy and telekinesis are at least being investigated by real world science (including state agencies), and thus just seems more solid than outright magic where sorcerers snap their fingers and things happen just because.

The SoB's own codex called out the Sororitas' so-called miracles as being results of "misinterpretation by the unschooled" and "products of mass hallucination". Humanity blindly stumbles through a second Dark Age where scientific principles get twisted by religious doctrine, to the point where people have to say a prayer before hitting the sacred "ON" rune on their antigrav-speeder, and where a simple calculator gets called a "machine spirit" because most people come from cultures so technologically degenerated they have no idea why something happens if you press a button.

This is what's part of the Grimdark to me. Actually validating these crazy beliefs as if they'd serve a purpose rather than being based on lies and superstition alone would take something away from the setting.

But this is very much a matter of personal preferences, and as we can see from the popularity of the Horus Heresy novels, there's a lot of people who enjoy a "high fantasy" version of the setting too. Both our interpretations are equally valid.

For me, part of the horror aspect of the setting is that rationality cannot explain or solve the terrors that plague mankind. There is no magic bullet, there is no explaining away the monsters as "warp-based xenos" or "hallucinations" - unless you're covering those up. Humanity *had* their run of rationality and near-Clarketech in the Dark Age - and it ultimately failed to save them. I find the idea that the oppressive feudal state with heavy theocratic elements may be the least bad option for humanity the grimmest factor.

Hmm, I suppose that is one (almost mirrored) way to view it.

It may just be my atheist bias / preference for science over emotion showing. Either way, I still agree on the "oppressive theocracy being the least bad option" bit -- for me, it's just that this necessity is actually part of the Grimdark.

A bit like, say, an apologetic perspective regarding Soviet wave tactics in WW2 - it sucked for the soldiers, but it was the only way to stop the Nazis. And in 40k, it sucks to have fanatical zealots torturing and burning entire families over conflicts of faith, or that Inquisitors blow up entire planets with horrible weapons of mass destruction ... but there it may be the only way to stop the daemons. For if you are fighting a war against the twisted products of psyche, then perhaps they can only be countered by emotion as well, and faith is the most reliable catalyst here.

Perhaps the Imperium would actually have a chance to develop a "magic bullet", as it seems to have the general capabilities (-> psycannon ammunition, geller fields, etc), but even though the necessary technology is at arm's reach, it could never be deployed in sufficient quantities to protect everyone now, or even the majority. Perhaps this can be part of the Grimdark, too. The very faith that protects the Imperium now will forever hinder it to find an alternate solution, as the people cannot afford the "switch".

No specific xenophile hereteks have been mentioned in the Expanse that I know about. However, there must be some heretek organisations to keep pirate groups' starships up and running - Karrad Vall probably has some dark mechanicus magi in his service somewhere because you'd need them to oversee the maintenance of a cruiser-class warship.

Anyone able to cope with high end imperial tech (like starships and gellar fields) can definitely cope with Tau science, which whilst better than 'low end imperial tech' (lasguns and so on) is nowhere near higher end imperial stuff ( the teleporters and terminator plate end)

Yeah, the tricky corner I find myself painted into, as I'm so apt to do, is that the person in general is an Inquisitor, and while a hair Radical, as Inquisitors go, she is still seen as "acceptable" by the greater Inquisition; they sent her to the Reach, to learn about the Tau, and they called her back to the Expanse, to deal with the Tau incursion there (they are, as of the start of that, unaware of the Eldar's involvement, so she's very interested in how the xenos arrived at this locale, and seemingly the far end of it, as the Tau are situated shy of where the Heathen Stars reach the Rifts of Hecaton; I'm uncertain if their puddle-jumping warp drives and hit-or-miss psychic resistance would actually help them fair better in the Rifts, where so many others would enter, and never return). While Inquisitor Von Cossrath is a terrible person, if you are one among her myriad servants (she's a bit Radical, and an Oblationist), I'm not sure who all she'd work with, who A. can meddle with Tau stuff, and B. would respect an Inquisitor's authority enough to hand their successes over for her use. Certainly, some of her own dabbling she hides from others, such as her suit, but there are some people, and then others you really can't work with, and still be a "good Inquisitor".

It sort of brings me to the dilemma of "can the Inquisition, even the INQUISITION, really force the AdMech to do much of anything?" Many groups of them wouldn't work with such "proscribed" tech, while many who would would NOT share it with her, saying it is the purview of the Adeptus Mechanicus; they rarely share their best, newest, or possibly most here-tech-al goodies, certainly with someone who might accuse them of actual heresy. The Inquisition has among it branches that watch psykers, the church, fights daemons, deals with xenos, and more, even itself, but I don't know if they can really watch the Adeptus Mechanicus, and when you NEED them to maintain YOUR goodies, your gear, how much pull can you really flex about their questionables?

It sort of brings me to the dilemma of "can the Inquisition, even the INQUISITION, really force the AdMech to do much of anything?" Many groups of them wouldn't work with such "proscribed" tech, while many who would would NOT share it with her, saying it is the purview of the Adeptus Mechanicus; they rarely share their best, newest, or possibly most here-tech-al goodies, certainly with someone who might accuse them of actual heresy. The Inquisition has among it branches that watch psykers, the church, fights daemons, deals with xenos, and more, even itself, but I don't know if they can really watch the Adeptus Mechanicus, and when you NEED them to maintain YOUR goodies, your gear, how much pull can you really flex about their questionables?

The Inquisition can put pressure on the Mechanicus just as much as it can put pressure on the Ecclesiarchy or the Space Marines, or any other influential major Imperial Adeptus. Which means it's going to depend on the Inquisitor and their influence/renown/contacts.

GW's Codex Inquisition even mentioned an "Ordo Mechanicum" dedicated to overseeing AdMech activities, similar to how the Ordo Hereticus keeps an eye on the Ecclesiarchy.

And then there's this bit from the d100 Inquisitor game:

So an Inquisitor who engages in blatant misuse of authority to further their own agenda gets "censured", whilst the AdMech bloke helping him gets executed for essentially doing the same. You can see the double standard at work here.

Thank you, I found that very educational Thing is, and as you said, it CAN come down to one's interpretation, I sometimes see the AdMech as more like a certain other religious institution, and in much the same, way, to certain degrees, they have proven willing to at least appear to be behaving in a way required by the Imperium, when the Imperium really isn't watching that close, and can't afford to complain too loud, if they did spot something. Does the AdMech truly see the Emperor as in any way associated with their Omnissiah? Earth and Mars are very close, distance-wise, but they know their Void Drag...wait, who let you [bLAM!!] Omnissiah is on Mars, while the Emperor, still in a coma, is on Terra, and if His life support failed, thus allowing the Master of Mankind to die, I don't think they believe their god will lose anything, as a result. Thus, they mouth lip service, because it is convenient. I can see that the AdMech has numerous factions, and like many little groups, they squabble, backstab, and hide stuff from each other, but against a unified threat, they might put their differences aside, temporarily, and the Inquisition poking their nose in might be that. Add in, when numerous segments of the AdMech "strike", no one is keeping the Imperium's gear working, it can become a real problem. Hell, I could almost see the AdMech saying "screw it, we want to rule, and let the Corpse God die." They stop playing with the Golden Throne, the Big E dies (there aren't that many Magos who understand the workings of that contraption, even this little bit, are there?), and daemons eat Terra, from beyond the breach, leaving Mars the mightiest planet. (Optional: AdMech deploy warp dampeners, like on Cadia, in an effort to limit the long-term ramifications of Earth becoming a next-door daemon world, if they can do such a thing.) I suppose I don't see why they don't, other than choice, and actual faith, or what have you, but...

Fortunately, I don't see the AdMech in this light, either, but it was a thought, a hypothetical I just had. In a weird way, the AdMech does seem uniquely capable of grabbing the entire Imperium by the short hairs, and getting what they want, because, like the spice and Spacing Guild from Dune, the entire Imperium cannot survive without them, thanks to their virtual monopoly. Even the Space Marines, with "tech-priests" whose loyalty to their Chapter MIGHT supersede their loyalty to Mars, would be hard-pressed to keep their **** going, and try to stop the Red Steel Tide from washing across the Imperium (I also may have borrowed name and content from a much-forgotten D&D campaign; raise your hand if you knew what Red Steel was without having to look it up on the Interweb )