rickert said:

they didn't d that in the first week did they? I remember all the growing pains that sabertoothgames went through, did we ever get "real" demo decks?

Hidatom said:

But they did hsave the plans in place and had told us what they were going to do before the game came out.

Here's the deal. I believe I've done more demos in stores and at cons than most people on these boards. WOTC has me on payroll as a Delegate just to visit stores and to run demos. Although LCGs are ultimately esasier on the pocketbook than CCGs, they are harder to get people into. the reason? A new player can't spend $10-12 as an initial purchase and play. No the price tag is more like $35. That makes a very good, convincing demo a must and it makes incentives for taking the demo even more critical.

I hope I turn out to be wrong, but if FFG doesn't step up and do more for this game than they have for the other LCGs, this game won't be the hit I feel it could be and that will be a shame. Already in central Indiana I've contact three shops that aren't carrying it and all three said they've had nobody but me ask about it.

$10-12 will get you littleworth playing as a new player in an average CCG. A starter deck will get trounced by even a slightly constructed deck. Magic's pre-made theme decks are a somewhat different beast, but they also lock you into a very specific build, in order to customize it to do what you want you need twice as many cards as it would take to customize an LCG deck and at least 3x the money.

The LCG is a different beast entirely, and yes they do rely on their IP's populairty, thier company name, positive reviews of their games, and word of mouth to sell their games instead of investing heavily in demo's. Do I need to explain why spending money on people doing small demos in a dozen stores across the country is not a particularly sound business decision in this current economic climate or todays gaming environment when compared to demos at major gaming conventions?

I think that it is probably time for you to realize that what you want FFG to do and be is not really who they are and likely to be. This is a small company that puts out a lot of games, very very good games, with a lot of people wearing a lot of hats. I'm not sure they even have someone currently holding the role of OP organizer ( I know they had been looking for one not that long ago) which means that one or more people are sharing that role along with doing their regular job (or two).

Either you accept this and enjoy their games and understand if you want people to play with in your city you are going to have to make it happen, or don't and hope that the game takes off on its own or someone else does the leg work.

Either way can we all justtry and tone down the hyperbole, the emo rants, and personal posts? I'm all for vigorous debate, but there seems to be a bit of an undertone here that is a little off putting. Maybe I'm just reading too much into it. If so, as you were.

dormouse said:

and that is the issue...you cannot compare the old paradigm to this.

But you dormouse are arguing out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand you say that FFG can't afford demo support (which I never asked for any pay by the way, you got that part wrong) because of the economy, but in the same message you virtually ignore my argument that it's tougher to get new players because they have to SPEND three times as much money to get started in this game as they need for most CCGs. Don't talk about how competitive those starter decks are because that's of next to no importance to someone who has just learned the game and isn't even sure how much they want to get into the game.

I don't know what mysterious content you're talking about. I've been very up front about the message I wanted to give and consistent about it as well.

Dear FFG,

A few thoughts/request based on this thread:

1. I'll cheerfully Demo your game and organize tournaments for free.

2. I'd love Organized Play but there are some things I don't want to see with it, specifically:

• Don't have hard to get Promos - that sucks and it ruins the whole cool factor of the LCG format (that you can actually, you know, own all the cards without mortgaging your soul to get them
• In fact, skip Promo cards entirely, please and thanks
• Don't make it too expensive and don't create bizarre rules for the games - just good fun tourneys that don't require me to fuddle around too much with my cards, trying to match some bizarre way of playing the game that was never really planned for - that's not fun, it's annoying
• Do have some kind of National Ranking System - that would rock for people who might care about that kind of thing
• Do have great prizes in larger tournaments

3. I'll repeat a point in my list above - NO PROMOS or hard-to-acquire cards, please and thank you - don't obviate the entire reason for a LCG by turning around and making it difficult to own every card in the game

Thanks FFG, you guys rock. I love this game, it's extremely awesome.

i say do alt arts or foil promos, nothing hard to get tho. or some kinda special tokens or something

rikert, you mentioned me in your response but it was like you didn't even read what I wrote. Mystery what? I said you were mysterious? I said you want one thing from FFG and seem to get upset/annoyed/frustrated when they consistently don't give it to you. I'm asking why? Haven't you figured out yet that your expectations of FFG apparently don't align with what their model is?

Regardin economy and demos... my points are not at all mutually exclusive. You don't get that then I can't help you see it any more clearly. FFG has always relied on large impact strategies for their marketing. You want small impact support. You haven't gotten it. Small impact support requires a time and money investment FFG seems unwilling to put out so far. This may change... but it will not be because you keep hopping on their various forums and complain they should. They do not read these forums regularly, and certainly don't read every thread. If you want to get your small impact support you need to show them how successful it can be. Go demo, get people interested and buying, and then point this out to FFG.

But again your coming to the forums and decrying their lack of doing things your way is not going to get you much support from other players who are in the same position but willing to demo without the bells and whistles because it is in their own self interest. *shrug*

Why not instead of complaining try to gather support for a letter writing campaign. Get people to send emails asking for the same stuff and everyone pointing out good reasons?

dormouse said:

No. I don't want to make money for FFG on my own without them lifting a finger and they don't want to help. I'm just glad I hashed this out before wasting any money on this game to have it mostly sit on the shelf for lack of players. What you are suggesting would be like me buying tickets to a sparsely attended sporting event and giving them away for free so that I'd have someone to sit with in the stands. Of course that team would just take in the extra money without so much as a thank you, a discount on the tickets, or anything. Anyone out there think theyd do that? C'mon dormouse! If you're going to make an opposing argument, pick one that makes sense.

rickert said:

"Listen to me, Obi-Wan Kenobi! I'm your only hope!"

Ego much?

Not trying to gang up on ya here, Rickert, but I think Dormouse's arguments make perfect sense.

Just goes to show there are many different opinions. His arguments make almost no sense at any level to my situation and environment. There are just two CCGs being played regularly at any of the stores I go to and there are four within reasonable driving distance and zero LCGs. The ones being played are Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh. Even some that are pretty well established have fallen out of favor. That's a big reason that I know just showing up and spreading the cards out and trying to talk people into playing won't work without some bells and whistles. So his opinion might make sense to other on the board for their locales but I'm not there and so it makes no sense to me. So if I can't get help from anyone who makes money off the game, then me, the only person who will spend it instead of making it, isn't going to spend a dime. If that doesn't make sense, I can't help ya folks!

And if the game is doing well enough in other locales, why should they develop an entire system just to help you? It certainly doesn't seem to be wise ot develop an entire line of promotional items, cards, and demo organization just for central Indiana because you're too self-centered to adjust to the idea of promoting the game on your own.

We get it. You won't be promoting it without any help from FFG. That help is, in all likelihood, not coming. You throwing fits about how you won't be exploited by FFG and DAMNIT you aren't going to promote their game for free!! isn't helping anything. So, can you just the trolling please? Your point has been made, and unless you feel some vindictive need to throw tantrums on the forum and try and hurt FFG over it, you really should just move on.

Buhallin said:

If you think that central Indiana is the only place this game could use some help then I think it is you that needs to move on. What would make you think that central Indiana is the only place where there is some need of a kickstart.

I would actually venture to say that Indianapolis is probably more prepared to embrace a good new CCG/LCG because area gamers had GenCon to help rev up interest. So you can think that this game is doing fine with nothing but word of mouth in every locale but mine. But if I were you I wouldn't be on it.

Lastly, I don't have any grudge against FFG. Check out my posts here and in the Game of Thrones forums. I've been trying to stir up interest in both games, willing to do anything except spend my own money. I have posted threads for this game and GoT looking for players. My thread in Got has been up for several weeks without a single response - not even one. I would love to find players for either game and then I'd buy into it. I'm just not going to buy into a game without players and FFG and the stores won't help me get players without me spending all of the money and doing all of the work.

rickert said:

So... Pretty much just looking for free stuff then? I thought we'd already had this disucssion?

I don't doubt the game is doing better or worse in different places, but you're the only one on here who seems to think it's impossible to get it going in their area unless FFG pays you. I've played CCGs since Arabian Nights, and I've been unpaid help in more than a few of them. I've seen games with lots of shinies to give away fail and games with no support at all survive far longer than I ever would have expected. Someone who believes in the game and is willing to put it in front of people counts for far more than all the posters and promo cards in the world.

You obviously don't believe in the game. You aren't willing to buy it unless FFG does something to pat you on the head and tell you that your $40 isn't going to be wasted. I'm sorry, but with an attitude like that you'll never get squat going anyway no matter what they send your way.

Besides, after perusing the community forum it looks like central Indiana is doing just fine - they've got the first tournament I've seen listed, and at least 3-4 players here expressing interest and in the area. That's not a bad start at all.

Really - if you're having such a hard time getting thing's going, maybe it's just you.

Buhallin said:

Are you intentionally being dense or is English your second language. I don't want ANYTHING FOR ME! I don't expect FFG to pay me the way WOTC did (and that was in the form of product). I want something nice to attract attention to the demos. I want something to give the stores to intice them to carry product (even a special discount for the first purchase of product or a guaranteed return for credit if it doesn't sell), I want a couple of demo decks that will be the store's property and I want something to give the players who take the demo. The only thiung I want for me is people to play against before I invest more money in an LCG, expecially when the cost to even stick my toe in the water is three times higher than it is with regular CCGs.

Is that clear enough for you or are there too many big words in that paragraph?

rickert you've officially crossed the line.

You not getting your way, and us not agreeing with you is no reason to be condescending and rude.

You've expressed your opinion. We've expressed yours. Is there a reason for this thread to continue?

dormouse said:

And what did Buhallin do by accusing me of wanting free stuff for myself when I previously expressly said I didn't want anything. Or is he allowed to cross the line because he agrees with you? You don't sound like much of an unbiased referee to be deciding anything here. This thread can end and it won't bother me. You can even get a moderator to shut it down and I don't care either. But as long as someone posts here and blatantly lies about what I wrote or what I want and does it in a confrontational manner as Buhallin did, I will respond.

You may not like the interpretation I offer, but I'm certainly not lying about anything, and I'm not just flinging insults about.

If you purchase the set for yourself, you have more than enough to demo with. If a store wishes to demo the game, they can easily crack a store copy - and if they don't, I don't see why that's your problem. Giving demo decks to players is nice in CCGs, but doesn't fit the LCG model at all - it would be like saying you need extra boxes of Monopoly to give to people after you demo it.

None of the above requires any help from FFG, and honestly doesn't see much benefit from it. Nice? Sure, but I've never seen any poster or promo card make people stop and look like a regular play session does. But you aren't willing to do that. You won't try the game unless FFG gives you (and your stores) free stuff that you think it has to have to promote (whether it actually does or not is irrelevant). Is that somehow inaccurate?

But we're saying the same things over and over again here. You expect more from FFG than they're willing to do. Maybe that works, and maybe it doesn't, but either way it seems your potential involvement in this game has been decided, so why are you still here?

I don't own a store or run a store. So I'm not looking for anything except players. I've spent a lot of money with FFG and others only to find that nobody else wants to play and the game sits on my shelf. I just don't want to do that again. Since FFG is the one with the most to gain if a game succeeds, I don't find it unreasonable to ask for something, anything to help promote it. If I'm willing to invest $40 in something I'll never make any money with, when can't the company that will make money invest in their own product by doing posters, promo cards or giving some store or player incentives?

What about half price on a chapter pack if purchased at the same time as a core set? What about a 100 percent guaranteed return of unsold product to a store at the end of a six month period if the game flops? The hard facts are that $40 is a steep entry point for LCGs even if they are cheaper in the long run. Someone has to be sold on the game and have people to play with before they will see any of the long-term savings.

I don't understand why these suggestions have drawn such hatred from you and others just because FFG apparently is unwiulling to consider these things. They aren't totally unreasonable suggestions. I've seen other suggestions made in other threads for wanting FFG to do things they weren't doing and it didn't meet with this backlash. I like FFG and have spent a ton of money on their card and board games. That doesn't mean I am not allowed to critical of the company for not doing something that I believe would help promote the game and increase its chances for success.

I'm done. You guys have fun. This ceased having any productive discussion on the first page.

Yo guys stop arguing, he was asking a simple question in the orginal post. ****..dont have to cry about arguing with rickert. He was just saying, not trying to get pansies in here. People these days, just dont have a bit of sense. Rickert, totally understand where you going, some people like me, would love some kinda help but what ever is good. They proberly hadnt planned on anything yet.

chaosxs89 said:

I don't draw any issue with his fundamental point. I do, however, strongly disfavor his condescending tone and sarcastic attitude, neither of which promotes a mature discussion of the underlying topic.

wampa8jedi said:

Unfortunately I'm more of an eye-for-an-eye guy than I am a turn-the-other-cheek type. I gave back what I got but they started it.

Well...I agree with you, Rick. But we are hoosiers...we gotta do better . Back to topic, I kinda wondered why there is no support set up. I believe the reason is that LCG are being marketed and supported the way board games are currently marketed and supported....None at all. I believe you should view the battle packs/chapter packs as mini-expansions for a boardgame.