I probably missed it, but I haven't seen this mentioned before. The Force die does favour a dark side result, including total pips.

7 faces have dark pips, with a total of 8 pips showing.

5 faces have light pips, with a total of 8 pips showing.

7/12 * 8 = 4.67

5/12 * 8 = 3.33

So over the course of a session, a player will to deal with almost 50% more dark pips than light pips.

If they wanted to make it closer, every white face would have double pips, but it would still be fewer:

5/12 * 10 = 4.17

Someone did mention it recently in another thread, but thanks for posting it again.

I'm looking forward to seeing just how this will play out, when I finally lay my hands on a copy of F&D.

Of course, the question is is the Dark side really stronger? Or is it just easier to access? The Light side doesn't manifest itself on the dice as often, but when it does, the chance of getting two Light pips is higher, as I recall.

It depends on how you define strong .

You could argue that the light side is stronger because it can generate more pips per die. For example, the Light Side can generate a total of 6 pips on three dice, whereas the Dark Side only 3.

The Dark Side is certainly more reliable , but that is something else.

EDIT: Thanks Jedi Ronin for reminding me that there are 2 pip Dark Side results. The above should be that the Light Side is more likely to produce bigger results.

You are more likely to get a dark side result facing on the Force Die but you're more likely to get more pips with light side:

1 side has 2 DS pips

3 sides have 2 LS pips.

So, I don't think you can accurately say:

The Force die does favour a dark side result, including total pips .

Right, but over the course of a session the pip results clearly favour the dark side. I think it's fine, it just puts the whole Strain/DP flip/dark side issue into a different context. I'm more certain now that I would never penalize the player with Conflict for spending dark pips provided they spent the Strain and flipped the DP.

You are more likely to get a dark side result facing on the Force Die but you're more likely to get more pips with light side:

1 side has 2 DS pips

3 sides have 2 LS pips.

So, I don't think you can accurately say:

The Force die does favour a dark side result, including total pips .

It does favour a dark side result, it's 7/12 vs 5/12. Number of pips doesn't affect whether you're getting a dark side result.

Ah, yeah, you're talking about total pips over the session.

Right, but over the course of a session the pip results clearly favour the dark side. I think it's fine, it just puts the whole Strain/DP flip/dark side issue into a different context. I'm more certain now that I would never penalize the player with Conflict for spending dark pips provided they spent the Strain and flipped the DP.

Do you mean penalize the player with Conflict beyond the 1 Conflict for using DS pips? Or are you saying you'll house rule away the automatic 1 Conflict for using DS pips?

You are more likely to get a dark side result facing on the Force Die but you're more likely to get more pips with light side:

1 side has 2 DS pips

3 sides have 2 LS pips.

So, I don't think you can accurately say:

The Force die does favour a dark side result, including total pips .

It does favour a dark side result, it's 7/12 vs 5/12. Number of pips doesn't affect whether you're getting a dark side result.

I agree you are more likely to get a DS result - it was your addition of "total pips" I was disagreeing with.

You're talking about over an entire session - and I agree you're more likely to get more DS results over a session.

With a particular dice pool roll though, if a die is going to produce 2 pips it's likely to be LS.

It's also interesting to note that the Force Die has an equal number of LS and DS pips - they're just distributed differently to make the DS faces more common but the LS facings more likely to produce 2 pips. Going with this framing one could argue that the Light Side is stronger but the Dark Side is quicker and easier.

Right, but over the course of a session the pip results clearly favour the dark side. I think it's fine, it just puts the whole Strain/DP flip/dark side issue into a different context. I'm more certain now that I would never penalize the player with Conflict for spending dark pips provided they spent the Strain and flipped the DP.

Do you mean penalize the player with Conflict beyond the 1 Conflict for using DS pips? Or are you saying you'll house rule away the automatic 1 Conflict for using DS pips?

I'd house rule away the Conflict for using DS pips...though I might add it back in if they are using those pips for evil purposes.

I probably missed it, but I haven't seen this mentioned before. The Force die does favour a dark side result, including total pips.

7 faces have dark pips, with a total of 8 pips showing.

5 faces have light pips, with a total of 8 pips showing.

7/12 * 8 = 4.67

5/12 * 8 = 3.33

So over the course of a session, a player will to deal with almost 50% more dark pips than light pips.

If they wanted to make it closer, every white face would have double pips, but it would still be fewer:

5/12 * 10 = 4.17

Your maths is wrong.

12 sides as follows:

6 x 1 Dark Side

1 x 2 Dark Side

2 x 1 Light Side

3 x 2 Light Side.

This gives (6/12 * 1D) + (1/12 * 2D) + (2/12 * 1L) + (3/12 * 2L) = 8/12D + 8/12L.

On average you get 2/3rds of a dark side point per roll and 2/3rds of a light side point per roll.

As I mentioned in a couple of other threads recently, neither is stronger but one (guess which) is "easier". A dark side user will have more consistent power use (as befits taking the short and easy path, imo), but the light side user will have more powerful uses on average. It's essentially a trade-off for greater availability versus greater heroism. And I like that. It fits better that the Dark Side user is more casual about their use of the Force, but the Light Side user is going to be the one to pull off the heroic effort.

Of course these probabilities even out the more dice you roll, so as Yoda remarks, the Dark Side is easier - when you're a novice, you're more likely to want to dip into it because it's all or nothing. But between two advanced users, it doesn't matter if you're Palpatine or Yoda, when you roll four or five Force dice, it will balance out to both get similar frequencies due to the convergence on the average.

Right, but over the course of a session the pip results clearly favour the dark side. I think it's fine, it just puts the whole Strain/DP flip/dark side issue into a different context. I'm more certain now that I would never penalize the player with Conflict for spending dark pips provided they spent the Strain and flipped the DP.

The number of times you get a dark side result over a light side, will favour dark side. However, the pip totals tend towards equality the more rolls you make. Your original post talked about total pips and "50% more dark pips". That's not the same thing as frequency of a dark side vs. light side result because the results of each are not equal in pips on average.

I'd house rule away the Conflict for using DS pips...though I might add it back in if they are using those pips for evil purposes.

I don't think the Force cares about evil vs. good purposes. I mean from Anakin's point of view, the Jedi are evil. And ultimately, all he does is sacrifice everything to try and save Padmé from a death that he foresaw (and was right about). The biggest philosophical difference between the Jedi and the Sith, when you get down to it, is probably one of "The Ends Justify the Means". When Vader confronts Anakin in Ep V, he invites him to join him so that together they can "end this destructive conflict" and "bring order to the galaxy". Anakin's intent was always "good". What makes the difference is the mindset, the emotionality, the sheer refusal or even inability to let go. I gave an example in response to someone in another thread talking about using Dark Side pips to lift someone from a rockslide. I'm just going to copy-paste because I think it shows a good way of explaining to a player why they're gaining Conflict for using Dark Side points when they think they're doing something good.

"You try to keep your mental focus to lift your ally up from the rockslide as the boulders crash towards them. But each time you try, the crashing and the knowledge of what will happen if you fail shatters your clarity. Fear grips you as you see her scrabbling on the slope desperately trying to climb out of the way. Not compassion for her, but fear of losing her, of the grief... and the anger that she should be taken away from you. With a surge of fury you raise your hand into the air, lifting her upwards to float over the lethal terrain, until she is pulled to you and you grab her out of the air and grip her tightly. Nothing will hurt Padmé her. Nothing will take her from you."

Usage of the Force and whether you're using Light or Dark is about mental and spiritual state, I think. Certainly the Jedi in the PT and TCW do many things that I would consider morally wrong. Opposing people's right to self-determination for a start. Yet they mostly stick to the Light side of the Force. And then there's that episode where Anakin interrogates a prisoner, having waited until the other Jedi left so that he could do it in a more... expedient manner. By doing so he saved the lives of many others, but it is still portrayed as a hint of the dark side in his future and you can see the doubt on Obi Wan's face when he works out what Anakin has been doing. The Force, to me, doesn't seem to have some clear knowledge of what actions are intrinsically good or bad and cannot make judgements based on such outcomes. I think it is shaped by the emotions or clarity of the Force user. Or they shape themselves by it that way. I think intent can matter - it gives Anakin is shot at redemption when he realizes that Padmé left children by him and that perhaps there is a chance that he didn't lose her after all. But it doesn't stop it from being a Dark Side action.

This is how I interpret it, anyway, and I think it works well with the game. Without this kind of rationalization, players are just going to argue that it's not a dark side action because they're a "hard man, making hard choices", as it were. Or alternately the light and dark pips are just not going to make sense to them.

I would rather a Light Side Paragon Jedi to automatically get 1 light side pip for free instead of getting a light side destiny point. Is it even possible to use light side destiny for any force powers? (other than for dark side purposes)

I would rather a Light Side Paragon Jedi to automatically get 1 light side pip for free instead of getting a light side destiny point. Is it even possible to use light side destiny for any force powers? (other than for dark side purposes)

If the Force Check is combied with a Skill Check - typically Discipline - you can use a DP to upgrade your check. Though if you do so you won't be able to use a DP to use DS pips.

I would rather a Light Side Paragon Jedi to automatically get 1 light side pip for free instead of getting a light side destiny point. Is it even possible to use light side destiny for any force powers? (other than for dark side purposes)

They also get a strain threshold boost. Combine that with a spare Dpoint and what you end up with is more resources to handle a pip flipping. As long as you can manage the conflict (not hard really), you're in good shape.

Makes me wonder if Yoda retreated from fighting Steve because Palpy was consistently pulling Black Pips and the muppet was rolling carp and blew his Strain flipping pips and taking extra actions...

I gave an example in response to someone in another thread talking about using Dark Side pips to lift someone from a rockslide.

It's a good example. However, the idea that from one minute to the next your character is either struggling with the dark side or filled with compassion and peace feels too schizophrenic to me. This kind of stuff should be dealt with when narratively suitable. Your example could easily be narratively suitable, if it weren't for the fact that you have to repeat it every time the Force dice are rolled. I'd prefer to leave that kind of thing to a Fear check or something that establishes a tone for a scene.

I also don't expect my players to have their character's state of mind dictated by a die roll, at least not on a turn by turn basis.

An extra light Destiny Point helps the whole party. While a dark side user corrupts the destiny pool (flipping a light to dark rather than just adding a dark).

"The Jedi are selfless... they only care about others." "[The Sith] think inwards, only about themselves."

I gave an example in response to someone in another thread talking about using Dark Side pips to lift someone from a rockslide.

It's a good example. However, the idea that from one minute to the next your character is either struggling with the dark side or filled with compassion and peace feels too schizophrenic to me. This kind of stuff should be dealt with when narratively suitable. Your example could easily be narratively suitable, if it weren't for the fact that you have to repeat it every time the Force dice are rolled. I'd prefer to leave that kind of thing to a Fear check or something that establishes a tone for a scene.

I also don't expect my players to have their character's state of mind dictated by a die roll, at least not on a turn by turn basis.

This is fair. But they do at least have the choice of whether or not to use those Dark Side points. So they can simply fail as normal, or they can call on the Dark Side. And if they do the latter, then they're chosing to do something which says something about their characters spiritual / mental state. You can't have them using the Dark Side and then saying that this has nothing to do with how their character is thinking / acting. You have to rationalize it somehow, or else it becomes a purely arithmetical operation with no in-character significance.

An extra light Destiny Point helps the whole party. While a dark side user corrupts the destiny pool (flipping a light to dark rather than just adding a dark).

"The Jedi are selfless... they only care about others." "[The Sith] think inwards, only about themselves."

Oh, that's very good. I like that!

You can't have them using the Dark Side and then saying that this has nothing to do with how their character is thinking / acting. You have to rationalize it somehow, or else it becomes a purely arithmetical operation with no in-character significance.

Agreed, but (and I recognize this isn't RAW), I don't start with the premise that using dark pips is "them using the Dark Side". It's just more work (Strain + DP) to retain the clarity they need to *not* use the dark side. If I had a player who wanted to use the dark pips without cost, that's when the narrative of the struggle would kick in, and they'd get a lot of Conflict for that ... (actually, they'd probably get a direct Morality drop, but I'm not planning to use RAW Morality).

However...all this might be moot. I know nobody likes that EotE Beta chart which showed the FR rankings, but if the intent of the game design is that you definitely *are* calling on the Dark Side every time you use a dark pip, then it makes a little more sense that an FR1 character would struggle more, and with additional FR the character could more consistently avoid it. Which means for Knights-who've-passed-their-trials having FR3 isn't unreasonable.

You can't have them using the Dark Side and then saying that this has nothing to do with how their character is thinking / acting. You have to rationalize it somehow, or else it becomes a purely arithmetical operation with no in-character significance.

Agreed, but (and I recognize this isn't RAW), I don't start with the premise that using dark pips is "them using the Dark Side". It's just more work (Strain + DP) to retain the clarity they need to *not* use the dark side. If I had a player who wanted to use the dark pips without cost, that's when the narrative of the struggle would kick in, and they'd get a lot of Conflict for that ... (actually, they'd probably get a direct Morality drop, but I'm not planning to use RAW Morality).

Okay, that works as another way of rationalizing it. I don't think it's how things are intended but if it's preferable to you, I don't see it as not fitting with the mechanics.

I'm more certain now that I would never penalize the player with Conflict for spending dark pips provided they spent the Strain and flipped the DP.

Why not? Put it the other way -- wouldn't you expect the force user who exercises greater restraint to become a light side paragon sooner than the one who wields the Force more frequently and at greater cost to himself and his party?

I understand resolving the whole Light/Dark/Gray on a purely narrative basis, but if you want to do it that way, then just do so. This particular hack makes no sense.

Jay Little talked about this on an Order 66 podcast before they did the complete switch-over to the FFG system.

Pretty much, the Force dice are intentionally designed so that the dark side results are more frequent (quicker, easier) but that the light side results give you a greater boost. Thus, adhering to Yoda's like that the dark isn't more powerful than the light.

It also depends heavily on the player's luck with the dice rolls. You can crunch statistical numbers until the banthas come home, but there are going to be players that buck the trend; I had a PC in a Saga Edition campaign that rolled a natural 20 on every third or fourth Use the Force check he made, but couldn't roll above a 5 for Mechanics checks no matter how many times I rolled.

I've seen sessions where Force-using PCs have consistently rolled 2 light side pips over the course of dozens of rolls on a single Force die, and another PC in similar sessions that kept getting 1 dark side pip on each of his two Force dice. I once had a session where my Force user PC rolled the die facing with a single light side pip on all six of the Force power checks he made; good thing that 5 of those were to use the Sense basic power w/o any upgrades. Going by probabilities, that shouldn't have happened, yet it did.

I'm more certain now that I would never penalize the player with Conflict for spending dark pips provided they spent the Strain and flipped the DP.

Why not? Put it the other way -- wouldn't you expect the force user who exercises greater restraint to become a light side paragon sooner than the one who wields the Force more frequently and at greater cost to himself and his party?

I understand resolving the whole Light/Dark/Gray on a purely narrative basis, but if you want to do it that way, then just do so. This particular hack makes no sense.

Well, first I'll say my thoughts are hardly crystal clear on the matter, and I'm still working through it, so you shouldn't expect much. But, there are two basic premises I'm not a fan of with the current rules:

1. I don't like a mechanic that allows to you tally points...help an orphan here, torture a thug there...I just don't see the moral question as a game of chits, nor is justice really a scale. As posted in a different thread, you shouldn't be able to balance murder with a lot of helping little old ladies across the speedway.

2. I don't like a mechanic that imposes a state of mind on the character that the player did not intend. IMHO, the decision to use dark pips is sufficiently penalized with Strain + DP.

So the whole Conflict thing doesn't really do it for me. Exercising restraint on dark pip usage doesn't really mean that much IMHO, that's not the Road to Paragon. The Road to Paragon should be story driven, not mechanically driven. It might possibly be enhanced by rarely using dark pips, but that can't be the driver. Also, a refusal to use dark pips when it's necessary seems very "absolute" to me...one could argue that if the purpose is ethical, the refusal to use dark pips should cause Conflict because you are willingly avoiding suffering (Strain + DP) instead of doing what's right. So it's all kind of muddy, and I'd prefer to dispense with it.

If a player consistently avoided dark pips when it wasn't necessary to use them, that might let their Morality creep upwards, but that alone shouldn't push them over the "70" line. Getting over the line would require consistent ethical behaviour, *and* something like getting everyone to safety and staying behind to defuse a bomb. IOW, crossing the line should be a big story-driven deal, not just the result of some incremental mechanical event.

All just MHO of course...