OK, I hear alot of people defending the rules saying "if you dont want to use them you dont have too".

Im sure most of the people saying it on the forum wouldn't be willing to pay an inflated price for a car if they are paying for a bunch of added extras they dont want, need or wouldnt use, or a top of the line computer for simple web browsing or even a MMORPG that includes paying for 3-5 years of subscription time when you initially get it.

How is the added 'extras' then for 3rd ed any different?

Personaly I'm all for adding extra optional rules (typically as a suplement if they are extensive), and if they're not so be it, just simply be open about it and quit calling them aids.

For that matter how is flipping through 300+ cards any faster than flipping trough a book or two. Dont get me wrong I like the idea of the cards, I just think the sheer quantity close to eliminates their benefit.

Loswaith said:

You don't flip through 300 cards. The card stays in a player's personal deck.

Loswaith said:

This is exactly what is worrying me too, but we really need to see some live action on this game before we judge.

And after all I think Jay owes us a session demo video

Loswaith said:

The 300+ cards will be divided into different groups depending on function. Each PC will have those cards most relevant to them right in front of them. They won't have to flip through anything - either a deck of cards or a book - all the information will be right there.

Also, players will have boxes to store their own personal cards and stuff in, much like in the Descent: Road To Legend expansion. That way, they will have their skill cards etc. with them each session. No flipping required.

macd21 said:

macd21 said:

You'll still need to sort out who gets which cards before you can start the game, and then pack them away at the end of play.

No, all your cards go in your character box.

Ludlov Thadwin of Sevenpiecks said:

Yes, at the moment I'm directing two RtL campaigns and the setup time is relatively negligible. Each player has 4-8 cards and 5-8 extra counters. At the end of each session you place everything in the player's box and the next time you play it is very easy to quickly do the setup.

The only thing you need is to be a bit orderly, which anyway is a good custom for most things in life, so another good lesson to be taught by an RPG.

To better organise counters and cards you can use many things: folders, tupperwares, plastic bags, plastic boxes normally used to hold hardware material like nails, screws and such... so I foresee close to no problems with this in my future WFRP3 campaigns.

Finally, replying to the OP, most RPGs have always had a myriad of optional rules and I think that's great as it makes it easier for each group to adapt the game to their personal taste.

When we played D&D 4E last year, we did this with ziplock plastic bags. We used power cards, glass beads for healing surges and action points, foam markers for things like marks or hunter's quarry, Campaign Coins to track money, and everybody had their own mini. At the end of each session, you just put all of your personal stuff into your bag, and it was all together for the next session.

Worked great, and I expect the player boxes in WFRP 3E will do the same.

John

Again with the cards, they will be in multiple "decks", like for those that play Runebound or Arkham Horror, you know that there are TONS of cards, but by the time you get it all sorted out everything is nice and even and EASY to go threw, and the players boxes will make things VERY VERY easy to just pack up and go.

Loswaith said:

Because it isn't unreasonable to charge for having the option for it. YOU might not want it right now, but it might end up being handy and usable in the future. The fact is that the game is providing options. You can use the cards, and thus they provide the physical cards to use... but you don't have to use them. You still have the cards, though, and if in the future you get a new player, for example, it might be useful to have cards with the rules for those actions/talents right there in front of the new player to look at. If the cards weren't provided, you wouldnt have this option.

Another example, a top of the line computer. You normally only use a computer for web browsing, but one day someone gives you a computer game (or other piece of software) as a present. Since you have a top of the line computer you can actually run it, rather than having to return it due to specs being too low. You find that you like playing WoW, or doing 3-d modeling, or Photoshop, or using a CAD program to design your remodel, etc. You can buy tickets to the amusement park, which gives you access to every place and ride. Does that mean your money is wasted, or the tickets aren't worth it, if you don't ride on every single ride in the park? No, if you don't like the bumper-cars, you don't have to ride them. You can ride the Whirly-gig instead. But you still have the option to ride the bumper-cars if you decide you want to try them later in the day.

People have already explained the cards. I'll also point out, though, that they also mentioned the fact that the cards makes it easier to add additional cards to the game. Instead of flipping through a half dozen books to find a talent (if you can't recall which book the talent came with), instead you sort through a single card deck for a copy of that talent card. You can then conveniently place it in front of you, rather than hogging the book and needing to refer to it later.

dvang said:

Instead of the talents, I'll defend the cards by stating the careers. Every time after a session when xp was used to buy new skills, I had to pass several books around so people could see what advances they could take. Now they can just look at their card. No longer do you have to carry books around you won't use on your session, only because someone has a career that's listed in that book.

sudden real said:

h no the horror!

I cant wait to get my mom her favorite Bible Verese on cards so he doesnt have to flip through that big book. It will save more time for her and Jesus!

Peacekeeper_b said:

lets stay on topic ok? this is about roleplaying not religious views

Farin said:

Was on topic. Was about how cards really dont speed up the game or books slow down the game. They are just different approaches to the same ends.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Nicely put, couldn't have said it better

And after all I think Jay owes us a session demo video

Peacekeeper_b said:

And I repeat. A player (especially a new one) has the information in front of them for talents and actions on handy cards. If they want to see what actions they can do in combat they don't have to pick up the book and browse to the combat section, then pass the book to the person who gets next in initiative. They have the action cards in front of them so they can read and decide ahead of time, without affecting others from doing the same thing and without burying their face in the rulebook. Looking things up in books *does* slow a game down, especially if the player looking has to do something in game. Everyone has to wait for them to look whatever it is up and decide what to do or how it works.

Are the cards absolutely necessary? No, players can certainly write in information on their sheets (or other paper) instead (but it's more work, of course). Eventually, players might even be familiar enough with an action to not need a card or cheat sheet for an action. For many, however, having quick access to what their PC can do (and leaving out all the garbage that doesn't apply to them) will be very useful, especially for new players.

dvang said:

If its optional (which from what is being told is about half of the thing) why cant I buy it later when/if I do want it?

Would you buy the computer if only the top of the line gaming machiene is available and all you want to do is web browse, yet you still have to pay the same for it?

Are you going to buy a top of the line computer on the off chance you may one day get a game from someone, that needs it?

Well how do you know if you like to play WoW, if you never played it before and had no option of trying it is it reasonable to expect you to pay $400 to try it?

Do you happily pay $1000 for the licences of a 3D modeling program/ CAD program or $700 for photoshop if you have never used it before? Is it even a reasonable amount to pay just to try it?

If you had to pay $100 for the amusement park ticket and you could only go on each ride once and if you dont want too, you miss out, would you be happy about it or would it devalue what you find an acceptable value? Say you only like 1 or 2 rides, what then? Maybe you have been to an amusement park before and only like the Whirly gig, is one ride on that worth the $100 entry fee?

At this date there is no trial its $100 to try something you may never want, use or need.

Sure we dont have to buy it, but im sure most people ask the question or express the dislike because either they want to understand why its that way, if there is an alternative or trial option, or simply to let the creators know that something isnt such a great idea for everyone.

As for book vs cards (directed at many comments):
How often do you realy look up a book during a session?
How is flipping through the 100 odd talent/ whatever cards (assuming many expansions) faster than looking in the index of each book and going to the page number? What about 4-5 decks of cards? What if you lost a card?
What if more than one player needs the same deck at the same time?
How much time will it take to sort out mixed decks of cards or mixed character boxes (if they get spilt or dont have lids)?
How much time is spent deciding over 20 possible action cards?
How easy is any card information to memorise?

Personally I maybe more organised than the norm, but if I know I'll be looking something up in a book frequently I book mark it, or copy the information to a cheet sheet.
If its a common rule I memorise it, and often if its an uncommon rule too.
If there is alot of information across many books I collate it into an easily refrenced cheat sheet(s).

On lack of updated material:
The cards dont solve the issue of lacking information, either look at the starting career packs, we know halflings are comming yet not one career shows that a halfling can be in that career. The cards have shown they will be lacking in information already and it hasn't even been released yet. (hopefully for those getting into it FFG will fix that). Also Errata is the problem of any printed material, its not limited to books, so I can see that being an issue too.

cogollo said:

Indeed they have optional rules, but they are usually at most 10% of what you pay for (in core rules) or are in other optional books. Typically giving you the option to add them rather than subtract them from what you initially get.

Has anyone considered the fact that the books for the game may be released separately after the boxed set has a chance to sell?

Everyone's arguing that the boxed set is the only option. It is the only option ATM, but let's be realistic - when the game has had time to circulate, I'm pretty sure they are going to release the books separately. It makes good business sense.

As for book vs cards (directed at many comments):
How often do you realy look up a book during a session?

If there is not combat, I'd say 2-3 times on average. If there is combat, about 12 times.

How is flipping through the 100 odd talent/ whatever cards (assuming many expansions) faster than looking in the index of each book and going to the page number?

Because the cards are right in front of you. You don't have to remember which book the rule is in, then try to remember which part of the book it is in etc. You look down. Presto - there's the rule.

What about 4-5 decks of cards?

Same as above.

What if you lost a card?

What if a page in your book was ripped out, or rendered illegible due to coffee spillage? Replace the card, just remember the rule, or just write it down somewhere.

What if more than one player needs the same deck at the same time?

Share.

How much time will it take to sort out mixed decks of cards or mixed character boxes (if they get spilt or dont have lids)?

A minute? Two?

How much time is spent deciding over 20 possible action cards?

A few seconds? More options are a good thing.

How easy is any card information to memorise?

With experience, most of the cards will probably be memorised by the players over time.

^^ What macd21 said, sums most of it up nicely, as well as McClaud's comment about after launch FFG selling pieces separately.

If its optional (which from what is being told is about half of the thing) why cant I buy it later when/if I do want it?

I am sure that FFG will have the option to buy/replace individual pieces (books, cards, sheets, etc) at some point after launch. After all, items will eventually get damaged or lost and need to be replaced. The Core Set is just that, the complete package/set with all the bells and whistles and tools to play the game immediately.

Would you buy the computer if only the top of the line gaming machiene is available and all you want to do is web browse, yet you still have to pay the same for it? Are you going to buy a top of the line computer on the off chance you may one day get a game from someone, that needs it?

If I want the option/ability to run higher end software, should I come into possession of it, yes I need to pay for it. Look at it this way, you can't buy a top-end gaming PC at Best Buy, but pay a low-end price just because you tell them you are only going to use it to browse the web.

Well how do you know if you like to play WoW, if you never played it before and had no option of trying it is it reasonable to expect you to pay $400 to try it? Do you happily pay $1000 for the licences of a 3D modeling program/ CAD program or $700 for photoshop if you have never used it before? Is it even a reasonable amount to pay just to try it?

Actually, there are a lot of games and software programs that don't have trials. Its common to have to pay for things, yes, even if you aren't sure you will like it. Look at things like boardgames, card games, etc, that don't have a way to test it before buying. The best you can do, sometimes, is do your homework and check reviews of the product before buying, because you can't try it out first. There's still no guarantee you'll enjoy what you've bought. If you don't, then Craigs List, Bartertown, or Ebay is your friend. Happens all the time.

Personally I maybe more organised than the norm, but if I know I'll be looking something up in a book frequently I book mark it, or copy the information to a cheet sheet.
If its a common rule I memorise it, and often if its an uncommon rule too.
If there is alot of information across many books I collate it into an easily refrenced cheat sheet(s).

The point is that in v3, you dont need to spend the time and effort to copy it onto a cheat sheet. The information is already on a card you can place in front of you. Eventually, it may not be needed once you've memorized it, but until then you don't have to make a cheat sheet.

dvang said:

I agree that you (in the general term) should always do your resarch before buying anything, but the implication of telling people to "if you dont want to use them you dont have too" is implying they should buy it anyway (especially since often its a discussion on a factor that doesnt add to the item's price for an individual), without actually offering any advice, food for thought, other uses or even accept that some people wont like bits of it.

It's a comment that gets thrown around as an argument that realy offers no information at all.

The point is that in v3, you dont need to spend the time and effort to copy it onto a cheat sheet. The information is already on a card you can place in front of you. Eventually, it may not be needed once you've memorized it, but until then you don't have to make a cheat sheet.

This is true too, though just because its the case it doesnt mean that its something new or original as is often touted. I wont deny the convienience of having a card or something to show the information you want as I clearly have been doing that for most of the many years I have played RPGs.

Like others have mentioned the information be it in a book cards or whatever is little different on time efficiency its more about how you use them.

As for book vs cards (directed at many comments):
How often do you realy look up a book during a session?

If there is not combat, I'd say 2-3 times on average. If there is combat, about 12 times.

Personaly if you are spending 12 times for combat looking in a book, it's a very silly thing to be doing, no offence meant (im not saying you're silly), its just an opinion. I can see how the cards would be of benefit to you.

I also dont understand why you would want to do that and not have created something to cover the information because it wouldnt occur to me not too. I see it as part of the preperation for a gaming session.

If I want the option/ability to run higher end software, should I come into possession of it, yes I need to pay for it. Look at it this way, you can't buy a top-end gaming PC at Best Buy, but pay a low-end price just because you tell them you are only going to use it to browse the web.

For you that is something you take into account when weighing up the value of spending the money on the computer. The ability to run any possible software on it in the future adds to the value for you, not detracts from it.

Conversly some of the added features of 3rd ed detract from the value of it because people cant ever see themselves using it. The whole concept of the point I am getting at.

I believe FFG have stated that any releases for WFRP 3rd ed will be in the boxed format, though I cant remember whether it was from a video, post or designer diary. I also cant see them only releasing the books because it will reduce their income on the product.

...but the implication of telling people to "if you dont want to use them you dont have too" is implying they should buy it anyway (especially since often its a discussion on a factor that doesnt add to the item's price for an individual), without actually offering any advice, food for thought, other uses or even accept that some people wont like bits of it. It's a comment that gets thrown around as an argument that realy offers no information at all.

It most commonly has been used after someone has already stated the value of whatever is being discussed, from what I have seen. The advice, food for thought, etc, have already been given, yet ignored or dismissed. The point in saying this is that the game will not be broken or unusable if the person who doesn't like whatever it is decides to forgoe using it. It is something that will enhance the experience of a lot of people, but isn't game-breaking if it isn't used. Therefore, "if you don't want to use them you don't have too". For example, it's not said about the dice because the dice mechanics are integral to the game. You can't avoid using them unless you make some large-scale changes to how the game works. The henchmen rules, on the other hand, don't need to be used if they aren't wanted or liked.

This is true too, though just because its the case it doesnt mean that its something new or original as is often touted. I wont deny the convienience of having a card or something to show the information you want as I clearly have been doing that for most of the many years I have played RPGs.

Well, I personally have never commented that the cards are new or original. It's just some hype to make everything sound exciting and fresh. That doesn't mean that the cards aren't useful, which is oftentimes what people are discussing.

Personaly if you are spending 12 times for combat looking in a book, it's a very silly thing to be doing, no offence meant (im not saying you're silly), its just an opinion. I can see how the cards would be of benefit to you.

I admit 12 is the rare occasion and the high end, but it does happen. Every game is different, and different players will suddenly want to do new unexpected things. One game a player out of the blue will want to grapple with an opponent, so now we gotta dig out the grapple rules. Then later someone gets set on fire, so we gotta look up the Fire rules. Then we get some new loot, and need to look up how X piece of equipment functions. And so on. Sometimes the same thing gets looked up multiple times, as people didn't catch it the first time ... so later in the session we grapple again and need to look it up again. Of course, the next 3 sessions there aren't any grapples made at all, so its not something we feel we need to put the effort into making more available.

For you that is something you take into account when weighing up the value of spending the money on the computer. The ability to run any possible software on it in the future adds to the value for you, not detracts from it.

Conversly some of the added features of 3rd ed detract from the value of it because people cant ever see themselves using it. The whole concept of the point I am getting at.

Yep, and this is the entire crux of the thing. What I'm saying is the Core Set is that high-end gaming PC. That's what you're looking at buying, and for what it comes with and does (and can do) it is worth the value. Now, if you don't want all these features, and don't want to pay for the potential to use them in the future, then it isn't the product for you. You'll need to wait until they come out with a stripped down version, one without all the initial bells and whistles and options, but cheaper, or just buy a different computer that's lower end but more affordable to you. That's perfectly fine and reasonable. However, just because you don't want all the options and features doesn't mean the price of that PC is unreasonable compared to the value. It just means that it isn't the product for you at this time, and it isn't worth your monetary investment.

There's a difference between "the game isn't worth the $100 pricetag" and "it's not worthwhile for me to pay $100 for the game when I won't use a lot of its features". People are saying the first, but really meaning the second.