Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

I hear this a lot and it always bugs me. Engine Upgrade on a large ship isn't dramatically better than on a small ship.

If you're boosting away, the end of your ship is in the exact same place that a small ship would be. If you look at the front of the ship, it is only 1 small ship base further forward - which is about 1/3 of a single range band. So, it's handy for boosting into range 1 or 2, but not a big deal when you're running away.

Decimators top of the heap?

You're having a laugh, with no agility they die really, really easily. I mean come on, guys have been talking about AC clustermissile advanced and punishers. poor Chiraneau won't be able to sit down for months after that shafting.

And if you really wanna do reb. 4 B-wings. they make Deci's cry.

Scum? 2 HLC brobots will do it nicely. Deci's are not that scary. which is a shame, I love mine.

I'd like to amend my above for saying anti large/huge torpedoes/missiles by saying - add them with the XG-1 pack.

Wait until you start seeing Kenkirk with Palpatine and Ysanne. ***** nasty.

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

Everyone needs to give this notion up. Engine Upgrade only comes with large base ship expansions and IG-88 has boost inherently. Can't change it now.

But IG isn't a turret. I'll change it to EU should be any ship other than PWT.

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

I hear this a lot and it always bugs me. Engine Upgrade on a large ship isn't dramatically better than on a small ship.

If you're boosting away, the end of your ship is in the exact same place that a small ship would be. If you look at the front of the ship, it is only 1 small ship base further forward - which is about 1/3 of a single range band. So, it's handy for boosting into range 1 or 2, but not a big deal when you're running away.

I get what you are saying, I dont think its amazing for running away, but the big ships can dodge arcs much easier with an engine upgrade, which is what i think the issue is. I reconsidered my post and said no EU on ships with PWT because boosting out of Arc and still having a shot is the major advantage PWT have. They are essentially two of the three ship "types" Arc dodger AND turret.

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

I hear this a lot and it always bugs me. Engine Upgrade on a large ship isn't dramatically better than on a small ship.

If you're boosting away, the end of your ship is in the exact same place that a small ship would be. If you look at the front of the ship, it is only 1 small ship base further forward - which is about 1/3 of a single range band. So, it's handy for boosting into range 1 or 2, but not a big deal when you're running away.

I get what you are saying, I dont think its amazing for running away, but the big ships can dodge arcs much easier with an engine upgrade, which is what i think the issue is. I reconsidered my post and said no EU on ships with PWT because boosting out of Arc and still having a shot is the major advantage PWT have. They are essentially two of the three ship "types" Arc dodger AND turret.

Another notion that needs to be given up. The Arc-dodger/Turret/Swarm designation is not a valid one with the versatility of ships/upgrades.

I fly a Kavil+4Z list with Kavil using Unhinged Astromech, Blaster Turret and Engine Upgrade, and my 4 Z's have hot shot blasters. So I have an arc dodging turret, and a turret/swarm. This is the versatility available in this game, and that type of narrowed-mindedness is what develops a meta full of netlisters that cause the rest of you to panic.

I'm with the guys who don't think EU/large-base boosting is the problem

again not that there's a balance problem to begin with, but the only reason boost is so infuriating with PWTs is because they don't have to give a **** about their facing. With boost, especially on large ships, you can really overshoot your target or end up facing the wrong way if you're forced to bank for whatever reason. As long as you have arcs to worry about, boost is not some magical middle finger you can just show off to your opponent.

now with PWTs, it basically is (auto-thrusters excepted) because there's absolutely no decision making to be had between arc-dodging and maintaining your shot. When you're free to fart around wherever you wish with minimal consequence, then it's understandable that the large-ship boost may seem OP but it really isn't. It's just the PWT being a giant Pain In The Ass

hell, if anything, the EU is the only thing you can actually outplay! (not usable when blocked or obstructed or going through obstructions or stressed) plus the focus/evade

there's absolutely no decision making to be had between arc-dodging and maintaining your shot.

Not entirely true, and I have experienced why:

I had a match while flying Chewie/Corran in which the opponent showed he was going after Chewie, so I moved quickly with maneuver and boost to stay out of range of most ships. He then faked me out next turn, and went after Corran, leaving Chewie with no shot for at least 2-3 turns (Asteroids made it impossible to turn back around quickly), and took out my wingman in the process.

You can make it work against the turret. I feel like a broken record because I've said it a dozen times on these forums: Chase a turret and you will lose.

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

I hear this a lot and it always bugs me. Engine Upgrade on a large ship isn't dramatically better than on a small ship.

If you're boosting away, the end of your ship is in the exact same place that a small ship would be. If you look at the front of the ship, it is only 1 small ship base further forward - which is about 1/3 of a single range band. So, it's handy for boosting into range 1 or 2, but not a big deal when you're running away.

I get what you are saying, I dont think its amazing for running away, but the big ships can dodge arcs much easier with an engine upgrade, which is what i think the issue is. I reconsidered my post and said no EU on ships with PWT because boosting out of Arc and still having a shot is the major advantage PWT have. They are essentially two of the three ship "types" Arc dodger AND turret.

Another notion that needs to be given up. The Arc-dodger/Turret/Swarm designation is not a valid one with the versatility of ships/upgrades.

I fly a Kavil+4Z list with Kavil using Unhinged Astromech, Blaster Turret and Engine Upgrade, and my 4 Z's have hot shot blasters. So I have an arc dodging turret, and a turret/swarm. This is the versatility available in this game, and that type of narrowed-mindedness is what develops a meta full of netlisters that cause the rest of you to panic.

I'm in no panic. If nothing changes I will continue to love the game and have no issues with any of it. I dont think turrets are OP, but if something were to happen, this would be my opinion on what it should be. Turrets can be brought down with simple concentrated fire and good flying, but the EU does make it significantly easier for large based turret ships to survive. In your list EU is on a small ship, no issue there and your Z's have a turret for ONE shot at range 1-2. Not nearly as powerful. Once those are spent, they are just jousters and your Y-wing is a turret. Sure it has an EU, but that doesnt make as significant of an impact as it does on a large base. On top of that you pay extra points to have the turret. Again, I don't think anything is wrong, which is why i dont want some firing mechanic to change just for turrets, this alternative just seems like a decent way to get everyone to shut up about it.

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

I hear this a lot and it always bugs me. Engine Upgrade on a large ship isn't dramatically better than on a small ship.

If you're boosting away, the end of your ship is in the exact same place that a small ship would be. If you look at the front of the ship, it is only 1 small ship base further forward - which is about 1/3 of a single range band. So, it's handy for boosting into range 1 or 2, but not a big deal when you're running away.

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

I hear this a lot and it always bugs me. Engine Upgrade on a large ship isn't dramatically better than on a small ship.

If you're boosting away, the end of your ship is in the exact same place that a small ship would be. If you look at the front of the ship, it is only 1 small ship base further forward - which is about 1/3 of a single range band. So, it's handy for boosting into range 1 or 2, but not a big deal when you're running away.

The diagram should have the rear of the small base and large base at the same starting position, not the fronts of the bases.

Wanted to point that out, but couldn't quite figure out the correct verbage. Thanks.

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

I hear this a lot and it always bugs me. Engine Upgrade on a large ship isn't dramatically better than on a small ship.

If you're boosting away, the end of your ship is in the exact same place that a small ship would be. If you look at the front of the ship, it is only 1 small ship base further forward - which is about 1/3 of a single range band. So, it's handy for boosting into range 1 or 2, but not a big deal when you're running away.

I get what you are saying, I dont think its amazing for running away, but the big ships can dodge arcs much easier with an engine upgrade, which is what i think the issue is. I reconsidered my post and said no EU on ships with PWT because boosting out of Arc and still having a shot is the major advantage PWT have. They are essentially two of the three ship "types" Arc dodger AND turret.

Another notion that needs to be given up. The Arc-dodger/Turret/Swarm designation is not a valid one with the versatility of ships/upgrades.

I fly a Kavil+4Z list with Kavil using Unhinged Astromech, Blaster Turret and Engine Upgrade, and my 4 Z's have hot shot blasters. So I have an arc dodging turret, and a turret/swarm. This is the versatility available in this game, and that type of narrowed-mindedness is what develops a meta full of netlisters that cause the rest of you to panic.

I'm in no panic. If nothing changes I will continue to love the game and have no issues with any of it. I dont think turrets are OP, but if something were to happen, this would be my opinion on what it should be. Turrets can be brought down with simple concentrated fire and good flying, but the EU does make it significantly easier for large based turret ships to survive. In your list EU is on a small ship, no issue there and your Z's have a turret for ONE shot at range 1-2. Not nearly as powerful. Once those are spent, they are just jousters and your Y-wing is a turret. Sure it has an EU, but that doesnt make as significant of an impact as it does on a large base. On top of that you pay extra points to have the turret. Again, I don't think anything is wrong, which is why i dont want some firing mechanic to change just for turrets, this alternative just seems like a decent way to get everyone to shut up about it.

People will just find something else to complain about. That just will change what its directed at.

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

I hear this a lot and it always bugs me. Engine Upgrade on a large ship isn't dramatically better than on a small ship.

If you're boosting away, the end of your ship is in the exact same place that a small ship would be. If you look at the front of the ship, it is only 1 small ship base further forward - which is about 1/3 of a single range band. So, it's handy for boosting into range 1 or 2, but not a big deal when you're running away.

I get what you are saying, I dont think its amazing for running away, but the big ships can dodge arcs much easier with an engine upgrade, which is what i think the issue is. I reconsidered my post and said no EU on ships with PWT because boosting out of Arc and still having a shot is the major advantage PWT have. They are essentially two of the three ship "types" Arc dodger AND turret.

I need you to look closely at the diagram. Say you have an arc on the initial position on both the small/large base ship. If a large hull boost out of your arc, it means the small hull would too. So your ban will need to be applied to all small base ships that can shoot out of arc as well (turret slot and K-Wing) since your logic is "if they can dodge my arc, and still be able to shoot facing away, its overpowered"

Complaining about turrets is sooo 2013.

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

I hear this a lot and it always bugs me. Engine Upgrade on a large ship isn't dramatically better than on a small ship.

If you're boosting away, the end of your ship is in the exact same place that a small ship would be. If you look at the front of the ship, it is only 1 small ship base further forward - which is about 1/3 of a single range band. So, it's handy for boosting into range 1 or 2, but not a big deal when you're running away.

I get what you are saying, I dont think its amazing for running away, but the big ships can dodge arcs much easier with an engine upgrade, which is what i think the issue is. I reconsidered my post and said no EU on ships with PWT because boosting out of Arc and still having a shot is the major advantage PWT have. They are essentially two of the three ship "types" Arc dodger AND turret.

I need you to look closely at the diagram. Say you have an arc on the initial position on both the small/large base ship. If a large hull boost out of your arc, it means the small hull would too. So your ban will need to be applied to all small base ships that can shoot out of arc as well (turret slot and K-Wing) since your logic is "if they can dodge my arc, and still be able to shoot facing away, its overpowered"

What if you start the small base ship and large base ship from the back pegs, and say the ship youre boosting to get out of arc is perpendicular to the boosting ship, which one covers more space/can get out of arc? Im not saying its OP, i dont have a problem with turrets, i just think this is a better alternative then changing a firing mechanic for PWTs. Also you have to pay for said turrets on the small base (until the K-wing).

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

I hear this a lot and it always bugs me. Engine Upgrade on a large ship isn't dramatically better than on a small ship.

If you're boosting away, the end of your ship is in the exact same place that a small ship would be. If you look at the front of the ship, it is only 1 small ship base further forward - which is about 1/3 of a single range band. So, it's handy for boosting into range 1 or 2, but not a big deal when you're running away.

I get what you are saying, I dont think its amazing for running away, but the big ships can dodge arcs much easier with an engine upgrade, which is what i think the issue is. I reconsidered my post and said no EU on ships with PWT because boosting out of Arc and still having a shot is the major advantage PWT have. They are essentially two of the three ship "types" Arc dodger AND turret.

Another notion that needs to be given up. The Arc-dodger/Turret/Swarm designation is not a valid one with the versatility of ships/upgrades.

I fly a Kavil+4Z list with Kavil using Unhinged Astromech, Blaster Turret and Engine Upgrade, and my 4 Z's have hot shot blasters. So I have an arc dodging turret, and a turret/swarm. This is the versatility available in this game, and that type of narrowed-mindedness is what develops a meta full of netlisters that cause the rest of you to panic.

I'm in no panic. If nothing changes I will continue to love the game and have no issues with any of it. I dont think turrets are OP, but if something were to happen, this would be my opinion on what it should be. Turrets can be brought down with simple concentrated fire and good flying, but the EU does make it significantly easier for large based turret ships to survive. In your list EU is on a small ship, no issue there and your Z's have a turret for ONE shot at range 1-2. Not nearly as powerful. Once those are spent, they are just jousters and your Y-wing is a turret. Sure it has an EU, but that doesnt make as significant of an impact as it does on a large base. On top of that you pay extra points to have the turret. Again, I don't think anything is wrong, which is why i dont want some firing mechanic to change just for turrets, this alternative just seems like a decent way to get everyone to shut up about it.

People will just find something else to complain about. That just will change what its directed at.

And that may be true. I was just making a suggestion that i think would be the best solution to this "problem."

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

I hear this a lot and it always bugs me. Engine Upgrade on a large ship isn't dramatically better than on a small ship.

If you're boosting away, the end of your ship is in the exact same place that a small ship would be. If you look at the front of the ship, it is only 1 small ship base further forward - which is about 1/3 of a single range band. So, it's handy for boosting into range 1 or 2, but not a big deal when you're running away.

The diagram should have the rear of the small base and large base at the same starting position, not the fronts of the bases.

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

I hear this a lot and it always bugs me. Engine Upgrade on a large ship isn't dramatically better than on a small ship.

If you're boosting away, the end of your ship is in the exact same place that a small ship would be. If you look at the front of the ship, it is only 1 small ship base further forward - which is about 1/3 of a single range band. So, it's handy for boosting into range 1 or 2, but not a big deal when you're running away.

The diagram should have the rear of the small base and large base at the same starting position, not the fronts of the bases.

If you did that, it's not a direct comparison anymore. And they are at the same starting position. Imagine they are doing a one bank after setup, where each is as far forward as legally allowed.

The point is a big ships total surface area covered is literally DOUBLE a small ship after a boost. If you line them up from the back, technically they are still in the same starting position. The scenario your describing is a perfect example to defend your point, but you arent considering any of the other scenarios.

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

I hear this a lot and it always bugs me. Engine Upgrade on a large ship isn't dramatically better than on a small ship.

If you're boosting away, the end of your ship is in the exact same place that a small ship would be. If you look at the front of the ship, it is only 1 small ship base further forward - which is about 1/3 of a single range band. So, it's handy for boosting into range 1 or 2, but not a big deal when you're running away.

The diagram should have the rear of the small base and large base at the same starting position, not the fronts of the bases.

If you did that, it's not a direct comparison anymore. And they are at the same starting position. Imagine they are doing a one bank after setup, where each is as far forward as legally allowed.

The point is a big ships total surface area covered is literally DOUBLE a small ship after a boost. If you line them up from the back, technically they are still in the same starting position. The scenario your describing is a perfect example to defend your point, but you arent considering any of the other scenarios.

By your logic, you would place a ship at the back of a huge ship, have it move 1 foward and say it's way faster than any other ship. See the problem?

We're measuring boosts. Boosts are measured from the front and you need to get the ships as close as possible. I could see the argument for doing the measurement from the center point of each ship, though I don't see how it's really accurate either.

Anyway, the rear of any boosting ship covers the same exact distance. The front of a large based ship just gets an extra small-base ship length due to the size. Large-based ships boosting is such a non-issue.

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

I hear this a lot and it always bugs me. Engine Upgrade on a large ship isn't dramatically better than on a small ship.

If you're boosting away, the end of your ship is in the exact same place that a small ship would be. If you look at the front of the ship, it is only 1 small ship base further forward - which is about 1/3 of a single range band. So, it's handy for boosting into range 1 or 2, but not a big deal when you're running away.

I get what you are saying, I dont think its amazing for running away, but the big ships can dodge arcs much easier with an engine upgrade, which is what i think the issue is. I reconsidered my post and said no EU on ships with PWT because boosting out of Arc and still having a shot is the major advantage PWT have. They are essentially two of the three ship "types" Arc dodger AND turret.

I need you to look closely at the diagram. Say you have an arc on the initial position on both the small/large base ship. If a large hull boost out of your arc, it means the small hull would too. So your ban will need to be applied to all small base ships that can shoot out of arc as well (turret slot and K-Wing) since your logic is "if they can dodge my arc, and still be able to shoot facing away, its overpowered"

What if you start the small base ship and large base ship from the back pegs, and say the ship youre boosting to get out of arc is perpendicular to the boosting ship, which one covers more space/can get out of arc? Im not saying its OP, i dont have a problem with turrets, i just think this is a better alternative then changing a firing mechanic for PWTs. Also you have to pay for said turrets on the small base (until the K-wing).

"What if (insert reasoning that is different than the function were talking about)".

We're talking about the boost function, and its comparison between a small ship and a large ship performing the same function from the same location. It does not affect large bases arc dodging ability any more than small bases, and the reason of it being able to shoot back is again not a fair argument simce you can do the same with HWK and Y wings, and K wings soon. Also, "paying for the turret" what do you think spending half your points on one ship is? You're paying for a PWT as well.

If there's any simple and elegant solution, it's the R1 bonus limited to front arc. When I first started playing, I was surprised it worked outside of arc. This is a huge benefit PWT's have because it doesn't reward the ships that flanked the PWT at R1, instead they get an extra die to the face. This way turrets are held to the same standard of great maneuvering to gain those range bonuses.

As far as whining about turrets and boosting, the only thing you care about is arc dodging. therefore, the only distance that matters is going from in arc to out of arc. Anything else is inconsequential. For that reason, nobody cares where the front ends up, you only care if a the back is able to get out of arc. For that comparison, the above diagram is completely valid.

Restricting range 1 bonuses is purely arbitrary.

now with PWTs, it basically is (auto-thrusters excepted) because there's absolutely no decision making to be had between arc-dodging and maintaining your shot. When you're free to fart around wherever you wish with minimal consequence

I've mentioned this many of the times you've claimed PWTs don't care at all about arc dodging or movement. I don't know if you've never read the replies, don't understand the concept, or simply refuse to accept because it doesn't support your argument.

Oh turret nerf is simple, Target lock allows only 1 die to be rerolled on turret attacks... And voila turrets obliterated....

Of all the half-witted, fur ball ideas suggested on the forum, that one actually isn't half bad. It's not half good, either, but at least it's not half bad.

Has anyone had a chance to playtest the 'no bonus attack die at range 1 if defender is out of arc' fix? Please, if you have a chance, post your experience/thoughts here. Thanks.

BTW- C'mon guys, enough with the back and forth. We're trying for a positive result here.

There are lots of positive results with the "when defending, if you are beyond Range 2 or outside the attacker's firing arc, you may change 1 of your blank results to an evade result" fix.