Easy, direct nerfs either to upgrades (predator/gunner ) without affecting other ships (introduce arc requirement) or remove the range 1 bonus from firing out if arc which 2ndary weapons don't benefit from anyway

You could extend the arc requirement to 3po who is easily and far and away the most cost effective defensive upgrade for 1 agility ships. God alone knows what golden rod is doing in there, as all I remember is him just sitting in the back while ties savaged the falcon in ANH and in strikes back he was actually doing something by being in the cockpit, pointing out obvious danger and annoying the **** out of solo.

The yt2400 has a PWT, but it can be overwritten with outrider

or remove the range 1 bonus from firing out if arc which 2ndary weapons don't benefit from anyway

Which doesn't do anything to the Outrider, so you are only really nerfing the Falcon and VT's.

You could extend the arc requirement to 3po who is easily and far and away the most cost effective defensive upgrade for 1 agility ships.

Making zero not a valid guess for him is much more effective, and wouldn't require such a massive change to the wording of the card.

The yt2400 has a PWT, but it can be overwritten with outrider

How many people actually use the PWT on the 2400?

I think a good nerf would be to let every ship outside of the normal PWT front firing arc roll one additional agility die.

And what do you do with YT-2400's? How exactly do you word it so only the YT-2400 is affected without nerfing Ion or Blaster turrets?

Make that rule apply only to PWT and attacks made by ships with the "Outrider" title

As far as I know the Ion turret and Blaster turrets are not replacing the primary weapon, so they're not really PWT's.

Why would you want to nerf outrider?

It has a minimum range or already doesn't get a range one bonus. At PS 7 it can be outplayed reliably by high PS small ships and pwts not to mention aggressor, who will simply outdice it with one more green die and thrusters

Reliance on ptl also makes him vulnerable to blocks, which are possible thanks to a VERY limited selection of green maneuvers. Plus, he still can't shoot while on a rock. If dash is not properly maneuvered and does not utilize his ability to put obstacles between him and the enemy, he's toast.

Pwts are the only weapons with no built in restrictions of any kind. Everything else allows you to either outplay it by avoiding shots entirely, or just sorta suck (2dice pwts, mangler dash)

Make that rule apply only to PWT and attacks made by ships with the "Outrider" title

That's another hamfisted rule then. When you have to start creating rules for specific ships, you either have a broken game, or else a bad rule.

There is no real need to nerf PWT's, they're only as effective as they are because of the other things that go along with them. You make them less maneuverable or less survivable, and the problem will mostly go away.

FFG isn't going to directly nerf the Falcon, VT-49 or Outrider directly. They can and should however do something about the combos you can put on those ships.

Make that rule apply only to PWT and attacks made by ships with the "Outrider" title

That's another hamfisted rule then. When you have to start creating rules for specific ships, you either have a broken game, or else a bad rule.

There is no real need to nerf PWT's, they're only as effective as they are because of the other things that go along with them. You make them less maneuverable or less survivable, and the problem will mostly go away.

FFG isn't going to directly nerf the Falcon, VT-49 or Outrider directly. They can and should however do something about the combos you can put on those ships.

I don't think they're going to nerf combos. Not sure we've even seen it before or ever will. Instead, they'll provide new ships and combos to counter it, as we've seen.

Still think the 'fix' for large ships is a big fricken missile fired by a bomber class. Hell, if it's something a TIE Fighter can dodge, but something that'll smack down a YT for so many points that'd be perfect.

Then we'll have a PWT fix and a ordnance fix in one explody package.

A barrel roll and/or boost on a PS 9 small base ship is no where near Super Dash's maneuver dial ignoring shenanigans.

And nerfing turrets will do exactly Jack about that.

Myself if I were in charge I'd make 2 fairly small changes.

Zero is not a valid guess with C-3PO, and Large ships can't take Engine Upgrade. Yes I know that screws over shuttles, but IMO it's worth it.

Nerfing C-3PO like that would make him unplayed and leave Decimators still top of the heap with all of the great crew cards that are Imperial only.

Decimators top of the heap?

You're having a laugh, with no agility they die really, really easily. I mean come on, guys have been talking about AC clustermissile advanced and punishers. poor Chiraneau won't be able to sit down for months after that shafting.

And if you really wanna do reb. 4 B-wings. they make Deci's cry.

Scum? 2 HLC brobots will do it nicely. Deci's are not that scary. which is a shame, I love mine.

I'd like to amend my above for saying anti large/huge torpedoes/missiles by saying - add them with the XG-1 pack.

Nerfing C-3PO like that would make him unplayed

No, he's still be useful, just not as useful as he is now. That would not IMO be a bad thing either. That said the VT-49 is not nearly as good as the YT-1300, I've never had the kind of issue of putting it down that I have a well flown Fat Han or Chewie.

Make it so if a ship is not in your firing arc you have to use an action to attack it with a turret

Yeah some people don't like playing against PWT or YT-2400's but that doesn't make them overpowered, what makes them an issue is the super mobility + super suriviablity + 360 fire. Take away at least one of those and you'll see them a lot less.

You already see a lot less.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/182930-many-bothans-died-to-bring-us-this-information/

How is this not a huge victory for everyone who complains about the Fat Turret dominating the meta?

Not dominating the Meta, but a Turreted ship (1300, 2400, VT-49) is nearly in a 1/3 of all lists that made the top cut. Go to final table and they are in essentially a 1/3 of all lists at 32.3% They are a good chunk of the meta.

Depends on the definition of dominating. I'd say a third of all top lists consisting of a PWT sure is a whole lot.

My last tournament I played 4 games (one bye) and I faced 2x Decimators (once with Soontir Fel and a Phantom) and a Superdash/Chewbacca combo.

ONE (!) out of my four opponents did nót use a PWT. *

(*=Xisor with 5 bandits for those interested)

And he was the one ending up winning the tournament, with 3 PWT lists hot on his heels...

You decide if you count this as dominating or not...

Make it so if a ship is not in your firing arc you have to use an action to attack it with a turret

Which would completely destroy turret ships as a playable option in this game. That would include ion turrets, and blaster turrets.

Even if you exclude secondary weapon turrets, it would still make the Falcon and VT's pretty much worthless while doing nothing to hinder the Outrider.

We don't need to nerf PWTs, we need to make 1300s and 49s less appealing. Somehow make them not as durable.

PWTs alone aren't a problem, it's a multitude of factors.

Depends on the definition of dominating. I'd say a third of all top lists consisting of a PWT sure is a whole lot.

My last tournament I played 4 games (one bye) and I faced 2x Decimators (once with Soontir Fel and a Phantom) and a Superdash/Chewbacca combo.

ONE (!) out of my four opponents did nót use a PWT. *

(*=Xisor with 5 bandits for those interested)

And he was the one ending up winning the tournament, with 3 PWT lists hot on his heels...

You decide if you count this as dominating or not...

Based on that I'd say they are balanced, but overly forgiving therefore often picked.

Space marines.

Depends on the definition of dominating. I'd say a third of all top lists consisting of a PWT sure is a whole lot.

My last tournament I played 4 games (one bye) and I faced 2x Decimators (once with Soontir Fel and a Phantom) and a Superdash/Chewbacca combo.

ONE (!) out of my four opponents did nót use a PWT. *

(*=Xisor with 5 bandits for those interested)

And he was the one ending up winning the tournament, with 3 PWT lists hot on his heels...

You decide if you count this as dominating or not...

Based on that I'd say they are balanced, but overly forgiving therefore often picked.

Space marines.

This is pretty much it. It's not that they're overpowered, they are just consistent. They are builds that look to remove as much variance as possible. That's why they are popular, as removing variance is good for tournament play.

"Thing X isn't overpowered, they're just overly forgiving and consistent."

Yes, these things are easy mode. That's why we don't like them. A turret gets bumped it still gets gunner, predator, C-3PO, Chiraneu's ability, etc. and will just shoot at something else range 1 behind it. A turret flies into a bad spot and by happenstance lucks out and threads some obnoxious boost that dodges all but 2 TIE Fighters' arcs because the opponent didn't account for every possible position the turret could end up. Dash gets to see where everything moves and then can boost and barrel roll the opposite way. Whoops, landed on an asteroid, let me just barrel roll off of it. **** it, I can't fire my HLC at range 1, aw shucks now I have to barrel roll.

FGD has created/propagated this meaningless 'PWT' distinction, of which Outer Rim Smugglers, non-Outrider 2400's, and K Wings occupy and also excludes Outrider Dash, which is the most game breaking Turretwing ship of them all.

I feel like half of this argument is annoying semantics. "Thing X is super powerful yes, but it's not overpowered." I hear stuff like this often in this community, this sort of hesitancy to just say that something is overpowered when you pretty much agree with us.

My last tournament I played 4 games (one bye) and I faced 2x Decimators (once with Soontir Fel and a Phantom) and a Superdash/Chewbacca combo.

ONE (!) out of my four opponents did nót use a PWT. *

(*=Xisor with 5 bandits for those interested)

Did you pew pew them?

"Thing X isn't overpowered, they're just overly forgiving and consistent."

Yes, these things are easy mode. That's why we don't like them. A turret gets bumped it still gets gunner, predator, C-3PO, Chiraneu's ability, etc. and will just shoot at something else range 1 behind it. A turret flies into a bad spot and by happenstance lucks out and threads some obnoxious boost that dodges all but 2 TIE Fighters' arcs because the opponent didn't account for every possible position the turret could end up. Dash gets to see where everything moves and then can boost and barrel roll the opposite way. Whoops, landed on an asteroid, let me just barrel roll off of it. **** it, I can't fire my HLC at range 1, aw shucks now I have to barrel roll.

FGD has created/propagated this meaningless 'PWT' distinction, of which Outer Rim Smugglers, non-Outrider 2400's, and K Wings occupy and also excludes Outrider Dash, which is the most game breaking Turretwing ship of them all.

I feel like half of this argument is annoying semantics. "Thing X is super powerful yes, but it's not overpowered." I hear stuff like this often in this community, this sort of hesitancy to just say that something is overpowered when you pretty much agree with us.

There are so many things wrong with this that I don't know where to begin.

Something being overpowered and something being consistent are two entirely different things. The big turret ships are not in any way overpowered. They have consistency that you can count on, (which you also pay a lot of points for) but they aren't overpowered.

You also act like large ships with engine upgrades are some magical ships that can boost out of every arc pointed at it. You know that the rear of a large ship is in the exact same spot that the rear of a small ship would be after a boost, right? Not to mention that the rear of the large ship is much bigger than the small ship. Unless your ships were placed poorly, a large-based ship can't boost out of all your arcs and if it can, a small-based ship would have had an even easier time.

Even the 2400 can't move that far with a boost and barrel-roll combination. And it really NEEDS that combination to keep as many ships as possible out of its donut-hole. At that point you'd still only be moving a ship from range 1 to range 2, which is also easily overcome by a ship that has PS8+ and can make post-move adjustments. Not to mention that if it is barrel-rolling and boosting every round it's using PTL which will make its next round movement predictable.

I just don't understand the complaints about the 2400, which is a really swingy ship. Yes, you can put out a lot of damage with it, but it's so easily countered.

A TIE fighter swarm has always been a good counter to the Falcon.

People that are better versed in tournament scoring systems than I am have been offering that the reason you don't see TIE swarms at tournaments is due to that lists struggle with MOV scoring. Essentially you can have a very good record but a worse MOV and thus keeping TIE swarms out of the top 8 more often.

Can anyone confirm whether this is true or not?

And if so, is there any other scoring structure that would potentially be better than MOV so that a natural predator of the Falcon and Decimator doesn't get left in the box at tournament time?

A TIE fighter swarm has always been a good counter to the Falcon.

People that are better versed in tournament scoring systems than I am have been offering that the reason you don't see TIE swarms at tournaments is due to that lists struggle with MOV scoring. Essentially you can have a very good record but a worse MOV and thus keeping TIE swarms out of the top 8 more often.

Can anyone confirm whether this is true or not?

And if so, is there any other scoring structure that would potentially be better than MOV so that a natural predator of the Falcon and Decimator doesn't get left in the box at tournament time?

What happens with swarms is, you take longer to move 8 ships than 2, and time is not on your side because you give up MOV points way easier than your opponent. It's not just tiebreakers, but what happens when time is up. If he has both of his ships, no matter how low you've taken their hitpoints, and you've lost a single TIE, he wins.

It's also rather exhausting trying to fly 8 ships well through 6-8 rounds of tournament play compared to two ships, particularly turrets.

"Thing X isn't overpowered, they're just overly forgiving and consistent."

Yes, these things are easy mode. That's why we don't like them. A turret gets bumped it still gets gunner, predator, C-3PO, Chiraneu's ability, etc. and will just shoot at something else range 1 behind it. A turret flies into a bad spot and by happenstance lucks out and threads some obnoxious boost that dodges all but 2 TIE Fighters' arcs because the opponent didn't account for every possible position the turret could end up. Dash gets to see where everything moves and then can boost and barrel roll the opposite way. Whoops, landed on an asteroid, let me just barrel roll off of it. **** it, I can't fire my HLC at range 1, aw shucks now I have to barrel roll.

FGD has created/propagated this meaningless 'PWT' distinction, of which Outer Rim Smugglers, non-Outrider 2400's, and K Wings occupy and also excludes Outrider Dash, which is the most game breaking Turretwing ship of them all.

I feel like half of this argument is annoying semantics. "Thing X is super powerful yes, but it's not overpowered." I hear stuff like this often in this community, this sort of hesitancy to just say that something is overpowered when you pretty much agree with us.

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with turrets, I think its the fact that engine upgrade is so stupidly ridiculously good on big ships. If engine upgrade was small ship only, i dont think there would be nearly as much of an issue.

Everyone needs to give this notion up. Engine Upgrade only comes with large base ship expansions and IG-88 has boost inherently. Can't change it now.