(Not sure if we should nerf Hawks at this point.)

LOL, that was awesome! Seriously, I stopped reading the thread at this point, but that was fantastic. You sir, have a Jerry Seinfeld-esque quality to your humor that I heartily approve of.

Yes, pretty sure we can all agree Hawk's need a good nerfing. Excellent work.

While not a big fan of turrets myself I think they need no nerf.

Some pilots might need a tweak. But that could be a buff as well.

Maybe there should be tournaments with PWT's and ones without. I mean who really wants to watch 2 PWT's throw dice at each other until there's a winner? The more intriguing tournament (IMO) would be the one without PWT's. The emphasis back on maneuvering and out-guessing your oppenent.

Then we would have to have "no turrets, no Soontir, no Corran" tournaments shortly after.

You don't like one thing about the game. Removing it throws the rest of the game out of whack.

And after those things are nerfed then we'll have a better game where swarms, BBXX-esque builds, and ships like the M3-A Interceptor, X-Wing, Starviper, and Defender are playable and low-mid PS bidding is relevant again. You know, normal builds with normal ships that don't ruin the game. Ships that get to move once, perform one action, and don't get 4 dice gunner FCS shenanigans.

Also, once Soontir gets bumped he dies. Fly literally anything other than a 2 ship Turretwing list and he's not much of a problem.

Yes, I played when low PS swarms of cheap ships were the strong build. There's no reason to return to that, really.

I don't think Turrets are overpowered, but I think the way primary turrets work isn't thematic. In Star Wars all turret mounted ships that use human gunners show them with a clear targetting computer and a nessecary lock onto the ship to hit it. (See Luke shooting in the new hope)

What I suggest, in a very simple change, is require the attacker to have a TL on the defender to shoot at it, out of arc, with a full powered turret shot. (Not spend TL, just have it present) if you don't have a TL, ion cannon rules apply, where the dice become ratings of accuracy instead of denoting damage. So if you don't have a TL on the defender and you're shooting out of arc, cancel all dice results and do 1 dmg.

I don't think Turrets are overpowered, but I think the way primary turrets work isn't thematic. In Star Wars all turret mounted ships that use human gunners show them with a clear targetting computer and a nessecary lock onto the ship to hit it. (See Luke shooting in the new hope)

What I suggest, in a very simple change, is require the attacker to have a TL on the defender to shoot at it, out of arc, with a full powered turret shot. (Not spend TL, just have it present) if you don't have a TL, ion cannon rules apply, where the dice become ratings of accuracy instead of denoting damage. So if you don't have a TL on the defender and you're shooting out of arc, cancel all dice results and do 1 dmg.

Maybe this has been said already, but I think the idea would make sense. Sure the point of turrets is to eliminate a "firing arc" but the ship is still MOVING in a certain direction, with a forward firing arc that direction, and hitting something you are approaching should be easier than hitting something way behind you while moving away from it off in another direction.

Maybe there should be tournaments with PWT's and ones without. I mean who really wants to watch 2 PWT's throw dice at each other until there's a winner? The more intriguing tournament (IMO) would be the one without PWT's. The emphasis back on maneuvering and out-guessing your oppenent.

Then we would have to have "no turrets, no Soontir, no Corran" tournaments shortly after.

You don't like one thing about the game. Removing it throws the rest of the game out of whack.

And after those things are nerfed then we'll have a better game where swarms, BBXX-esque builds, and ships like the M3-A Interceptor, X-Wing, Starviper, and Defender are playable and low-mid PS bidding is relevant again. You know, normal builds with normal ships that don't ruin the game. Ships that get to move once, perform one action, and don't get 4 dice gunner FCS shenanigans.

Also, once Soontir gets bumped he dies. Fly literally anything other than a 2 ship Turretwing list and he's not much of a problem.

Yes, I played when low PS swarms of cheap ships were the strong build. There's no reason to return to that, really.

Really? I think they still are. Being able to block the 'fatty', then subsequently throw a ton of red dice at it seems a good counter at this point. The major flaw is trying to fly 6+ ships for 8+ hours at a tournament.

The major flaw is that 5 TIE Fighters don't actually counter a ~60 nuanceless game ruining fat Han, and 48 points of academies don't have any hope against a 48 point Super Corran.

Fat turrets with engine upgrade, especially Dash, are the best arc dodgers in the game.

FGD, Dash is very hard to block with a normal list. It's very hard to get in front of him to block if he has been boosting and barrel rolling every single turn since the game started. If I try to peel off an re-engage later instead of chasing him he'll just barrel roll backwards after his, 'limiting' green soft 1. It's an HLC turret with a pre-nerf phantom tier of hypermobility. It quite blatantly ruins the game if you're not also flying Brobots or whatever nuanceless game ruining 2 ship list.

Heh, since fat turrets are the best arc dodgers in the game, fat turrets are a good counter to them.

Maybe there should be tournaments with PWT's and ones without. I mean who really wants to watch 2 PWT's throw dice at each other until there's a winner? The more intriguing tournament (IMO) would be the one without PWT's. The emphasis back on maneuvering and out-guessing your oppenent.

Then we would have to have "no turrets, no Soontir, no Corran" tournaments shortly after.

You don't like one thing about the game. Removing it throws the rest of the game out of whack.

And after those things are nerfed then we'll have a better game where swarms, BBXX-esque builds, and ships like the M3-A Interceptor, X-Wing, Starviper, and Defender are playable and low-mid PS bidding is relevant again. You know, normal builds with normal ships that don't ruin the game. Ships that get to move once, perform one action, and don't get 4 dice gunner FCS shenanigans.

Also, once Soontir gets bumped he dies. Fly literally anything other than a 2 ship Turretwing list and he's not much of a problem.

TL, DR

Worst thread ever?

Or does one of the other Turret's are OP, let's change it threads have a better shot at that mantle?

Why do people keep posting this crap?

TL, DR

Worst thread ever?

Or does one of the other Turret's are OP, let's change it threads have a better shot at that mantle?

Why do people keep posting this crap?

I miss maneuver dials mattering. I want to try out some regular ships without getting pounded by some Decimator that gets a free TL and focus every shot with gunner.

TL;DR: In other words, we have taste and we're tired of being subjected to bad taste. We want our elegant dogfighting game back.

TL, DR

Worst thread ever?

Or does one of the other Turret's are OP, let's change it threads have a better shot at that mantle?

Why do people keep posting this crap?

Because most of the lists I face are these obnoxious 2 ship Turretwing lists and it's getting annoying facing them.

I miss maneuver dials mattering. I want to try out some regular ships without getting pounded by some Decimator that gets a free TL and focus every shot with gunner.

TL;DR: In other words, we have taste and we're tired of being subjected to bad taste. We want our elegant dogfighting game back.

Learn how to beat them. That's the stupid turret nerf.

TL, DR

Worst thread ever?

Or does one of the other Turret's are OP, let's change it threads have a better shot at that mantle?

Why do people keep posting this crap?

Because most of the lists I face are these obnoxious 2 ship Turretwing lists and it's getting annoying facing them.

I miss maneuver dials mattering. I want to try out some regular ships without getting pounded by some Decimator that gets a free TL and focus every shot with gunner.

TL;DR: In other words, we have taste and we're tired of being subjected to bad taste. We want our elegant dogfighting game back.

Learn how to beat them. That's the stupid turret nerf.

Kinda insulting to think your fellow posters haven't?

You sound like some idiot who wants a forum that's all about just smacking down anyone who said FFG's sense of balance and interesting gameplay wasn't 100% perfect.

TL, DR

Worst thread ever?

Or does one of the other Turret's are OP, let's change it threads have a better shot at that mantle?

Why do people keep posting this crap?

Because most of the lists I face are these obnoxious 2 ship Turretwing lists and it's getting annoying facing them.

I miss maneuver dials mattering. I want to try out some regular ships without getting pounded by some Decimator that gets a free TL and focus every shot with gunner.

TL;DR: In other words, we have taste and we're tired of being subjected to bad taste. We want our elegant dogfighting game back.

Learn how to beat them. That's the stupid turret nerf.

Kinda insulting to think your fellow posters haven't?

You sound like some idiot who wants a forum that's all about just smacking down anyone who said FFG's sense of balance and interesting gameplay wasn't 100% perfect.

Sorry I've been rude. My apologies. It's just way past beyond irritating.

FFG clearly isn't perfect but talk of significant game imbalance in X-Wing is wrong. Yes PWT's are generally strong but there are lots of other things that are also strong.

If we met at a LGS I'm actually a really friendly guy and have mutually great gaming experiences the vast majority of the time.

Sometimes when I get really irritated reading these same threads about OP PWT's and how to nerf them I say things online that I would be much more diplomatic about in person. Yes I'm being a jerk about it on the forum right now. So I guess this is a sorry, not sorry situation. I'm just tired of it.

TL, DR

Worst thread ever?

Or does one of the other Turret's are OP, let's change it threads have a better shot at that mantle?

Why do people keep posting this crap?

Because most of the lists I face are these obnoxious 2 ship Turretwing lists and it's getting annoying facing them.

I miss maneuver dials mattering. I want to try out some regular ships without getting pounded by some Decimator that gets a free TL and focus every shot with gunner.

TL;DR: In other words, we have taste and we're tired of being subjected to bad taste. We want our elegant dogfighting game back.

Learn how to beat them. That's the stupid turret nerf.

Kinda insulting to think your fellow posters haven't?

You sound like some idiot who wants a forum that's all about just smacking down anyone who said FFG's sense of balance and interesting gameplay wasn't 100% perfect.

Sorry I've been rude. My apologies. It's just way past beyond irritating.

FFG clearly isn't perfect but talk of significant game imbalance in X-Wing is wrong. Yes PWT's are generally strong but there are lots of other things that are also strong.

I understand the sentiment, but I think this is a thing about which reasonable people can disagree. The internet is not going to run out of space if these discussions exist.

TL, DR

Worst thread ever?

Or does one of the other Turret's are OP, let's change it threads have a better shot at that mantle?

Why do people keep posting this crap?

Because most of the lists I face are these obnoxious 2 ship Turretwing lists and it's getting annoying facing them.

I miss maneuver dials mattering. I want to try out some regular ships without getting pounded by some Decimator that gets a free TL and focus every shot with gunner.

TL;DR: In other words, we have taste and we're tired of being subjected to bad taste. We want our elegant dogfighting game back.

Learn how to beat them. That's the stupid turret nerf.

Kinda insulting to think your fellow posters haven't?

You sound like some idiot who wants a forum that's all about just smacking down anyone who said FFG's sense of balance and interesting gameplay wasn't 100% perfect.

Sorry I've been rude. My apologies. It's just way past beyond irritating.

FFG clearly isn't perfect but talk of significant game imbalance in X-Wing is wrong. Yes PWT's are generally strong but there are lots of other things that are also strong.

I understand the sentiment, but I think this is a thing about which reasonable people can disagree. The internet is not going to run out of space if these discussions exist.

Let me explain more why I complain about Turretwing so much.

Things are worse when they're mediocre as opposed to just outright terrible. This is because things that are blatantly terrible get changed, and things that are mediocre linger and never get changed. Nickelback isn't the worst band in the world, they're just the epitome of mediocrity. If someone says, "Nickelback sucks!" there are a handful of people that will say something to the effect of, "Nickelback isn't THAT bad, there is that one song they have I like!", or, "Hey man, that's just your opinion" and thus Nickelback lingers.

The terrible Phantom dominated meta was changed eventually. The current meta isn't wave 5/Phantom meta terrible and there is a little variety, but it's bad. I'm trying to convince people that it's terrible so that it will get changed instead of staying mediocre forever.

The problem is that many (most?) people do NOT think it's bad.

If you had your way, what exactly would the meta look like? What is this 'perfect' world you aspire to have things change to?

Turrets allow some form of minor control over the Boosting and Barrel rolling which would otherwise dominate what was originally a game which encouraged trying to out-think your opponent.

I used to like the game when skill was far more important... that was before people started playing high PS boosting and barrel rolling ships.

Seriously... you may complain about Turrets, but how much skill does it take to watch someone else move, then once you know where they are, to boost and barrel roll where you need to?

Not much.

Turrets keep players honest and act as a counter to this. If anything Auto-thrusters was a step in the wrong direction.

The problem is that many (most?) people do NOT think it's bad.

If you had your way, what exactly would the meta look like? What is this 'perfect' world you aspire to have things change to?

And thus Nickelback lingers.

A handful of upgrades wouldn't be in the game like the Outrider title, FCS, ACD.

Turretwing would be nerfed by partial point MoV or whatever.

Imagine the wave 3 meta but with M3-A Interceptors and Starvipers and Z-95's and Defenders in it. Easiest way to describe it I guess would be everything in the game except named Phantoms, wave 5, and a handful of other specific combos like Super Corran.

Maybe some sort of swarm nerf also, like reducing assault missiles to 3 points or something.

Seriously... you may complain about Turrets, but how much skill does it take to watch someone else move, then once you know where they are, to boost and barrel roll where you need to?

And now you know what I hate the most about turrets.

Stop saying that turrets are needed to prevent arc dodgers from taking over the game. The Phantom has been nerfed and Soontir is doing a green hard 2 every single turn, he's not that hard to deal with. Turrets (especially Super Dash) are the best arc dodgers in the game.

The problem is that many (most?) people do NOT think it's bad.

If you had your way, what exactly would the meta look like? What is this 'perfect' world you aspire to have things change to?

And thus Nickelback lingers.

A handful of upgrades wouldn't be in the game like the Outrider title, FCS, ACD.

Turretwing would be nerfed by partial point MoV or whatever.

Imagine the wave 3 meta but with M3-A Interceptors and Starvipers and Z-95's and Defenders in it. Easiest way to describe it I guess would be everything in the game except named Phantoms, wave 5, and a handful of other specific combos like Super Corran.

Maybe some sort of swarm nerf also, like reducing assault missiles to 3 points or something.

Oh FFS, your analogy doesn't even work there, try something else.

The problem is that many (most?) people do NOT think it's bad.

If you had your way, what exactly would the meta look like? What is this 'perfect' world you aspire to have things change to?

And thus Nickelback lingers.

A handful of upgrades wouldn't be in the game like the Outrider title, FCS, ACD.

Turretwing would be nerfed by partial point MoV or whatever.

Imagine the wave 3 meta but with M3-A Interceptors and Starvipers and Z-95's and Defenders in it. Easiest way to describe it I guess would be everything in the game except named Phantoms, wave 5, and a handful of other specific combos like Super Corran.

Maybe some sort of swarm nerf also, like reducing assault missiles to 3 points or something.

Seriously... you may complain about Turrets, but how much skill does it take to watch someone else move, then once you know where they are, to boost and barrel roll where you need to?

And now you know what I hate the most about turrets.

Stop saying that turrets are needed to prevent arc dodgers from taking over the game. The Phantom has been nerfed and Soontir is doing a green hard 2 every single turn, he's not that hard to deal with. Turrets (especially Super Dash) are the best arc dodgers in the game.

Turrets allow some form of minor control over the Boosting and Barrel rolling which would otherwise dominate what was originally a game which encouraged trying to out-think your opponent.

I used to like the game when skill was far more important... that was before people started playing high PS boosting and barrel rolling ships.

Seriously... you may complain about Turrets, but how much skill does it take to watch someone else move, then once you know where they are, to boost and barrel roll where you need to?

Not much.

Turrets keep players honest and act as a counter to this. If anything Auto-thrusters was a step in the wrong direction.

imo, this "we need turrets to counter-arcdodgers!" line of argument is a crock of ****. I don't find turrets to be op from an overall balance perspective, but I really have to wonder how the hell countering a mechanic by rendering it completely useless is in any way acceptable.

not only do PWTs do the exact same thing as arc-dodgers (high PS boost out of arc), but they don't even have the easy counters that arc-dodgers do

Fel gets wrecked after a block or obstruction, turning into a 30+ point tie fighter that, more likely than not, isn't facing any good targets with his arc. If Fel gets stressed by control tech, he also turns into a 30+ point Tie Fighter. If Fel has to run to avoid an inevitable block, having an arc means he's probably forfeiting a shot. Fel cannot trivially arc-dodge if it puts him in position to run over an obstacle the next turn (else, again, he gets wrecked) and Fel has to pay attention to his firing arc at all times.

you keep an arc-dodger honest by predicting it and denying it it's maneuverability, not by giving up and shrugging "well **** it, I'll just roll dice at it until its greens fail."

Meanwhile, if you block a PWT and it loses its primary action. It doesn't lose the host of action-independent upgrades it's packing nor the chunky amounts of hull/shields (Rather than losing 33% health to an obstruction damage roll, a falcon will lose 8% health and a decimator will lose 6%), nor will it ever risk losing its shot due to maneuvering (neither the player's nor the opponent's) unless it ends up on an asteroid

without autothrusters, interceptors would be unplayable as no amount of skill will matter against 360, range 1-3 fire. The fact that auto-thrusters had to be made is a pretty good indicator how much of a bad idea primary weapon turrets are.

the skill required to play a high PS arc-dodger relies upon predicting your opponent's attempts to block or draw arcs on said high PS arc-dodger. a fat han/cheri is much the same, except they are objectively many times more forgiving because they don't turn into a squishy mess when they lose their action step action and because they never have to choose between going somewhere or getting a shot.

If you miss skill because of high PS arc-dodgers, you sure won't find it with high PS arc-dodgers that cannot be arc-dodged themselves

BTW- wasn't it in episode V (Empire Strikes Back) that the Falcon was running away from 3 or 4 tie fighters (and getting shot to sh!t)? They had to hide in an asteroid and make repairs. As things are now, the Falcon would play pacman with 4 tie fighters.

poor Howly, Mauly, Stabby, and Curse

Seriously... you may complain about Turrets, but how much skill does it take to watch someone else move, then once you know where they are, to boost and barrel roll where you need to?

imo, this "we need turrets to counter-arcdodgers!" line of argument is a crock of ****. I don't find turrets to be op from an overall balance perspective, but I really have to wonder how the hell countering a mechanic by rendering it completely useless is in any way acceptable.

Perhaps I can find a nice GIF file that portrays how I feel about people who use MA all the time?

This is not to defend turrets (also because I feel that the underlying sentiment against them is actually quite valid), but to show that the same line of reasoning can be held against lots of things in the game. Also, trying to change one aspect will have, maybe unintended, consequences. Removing turrets will only make MA more powerful than it already is; it's just a shift of balance

Here in the south of Brazil, we frequently play to the end (untimed), and when that happens, it is difficult for a turret to win.

Ultimately, I would say that I agree with the complaints, but they are based on MoV (and time). If the score system were to change to something more comprehensive, I would say no nerf would be needed at all. Maybe some score based on half hitpoints? I am not sure whether that would create another pocket, though, where it became more important to kill half of each ship. Or maybe not, a ship left to live will eventually turn around and bite you in the ass.

Edit: spelling