I get that "The force was strong with him" and "His mindichoribang levels are above 50 megasatans" (Note: I think it was worded slightly different)
I'm going to find a way to use "megasatans" in a sentence if it kills me. Just sayin'.
You... Y'just... Y'just did, though. So mission accomplished?
In order of the stick, they measure Belkar's evil in Kilonazis.
So is a Kilonazi more or less then a Megasatan?
The world may never know.
In order of the stick, they measure Belkar's evil in Kilonazis.
So is a Kilonazi more or less then a Megasatan?
The world may never know.
Both are metric system units of measure. Kilo is one thousand, and mega is one million. By default megasatans would be more, assuming one Nazi = one satan or less. With just a handful of exceptions, I think one Nazi is less than a single satan.
But, I'm an American, so I don't use the metric system. Can you do this for me in foot-pounds?
The ad populum argument is irrelevant unless one of these gentlemen actually invites me to play.
It's moot till that happens/
The problem as I have stated, is not how you want to play your game - you can do that all you like. The problem is that you appear in threads like this where people are trying to learn the rules and get a feel for how it's meant to play, and lay down unqualified assertions such as Luke should have FR3 in Episode V when we don't see anything on screen that justifies this at all. But now a new GM goes away thinking that the standard approach is for the character they saw in Episode V to be built with FR3 and 600+XP. And it will mess up their game. You do things like refer to a chart giving Knight = FR3, Master = FR5 which not only isn't in the game but doesn't really make sense given that so much of what you do with Force is based around investment in powers anyway.
But, I'm an American, so I don't use the metric system. Can you do this for me in foot-pounds?
No. The rest of the world says: "JOIN THE MODERN ERA!"
But, I'm an American, so I don't use the metric system. Can you do this for me in foot-pounds?
No. The rest of the world says: "JOIN THE MODERN ERA!"
Luke: "Is the metric system stronger?"
Yoda: "Yes. Quicker, easier. More... better. Use it well."
Well...
If you view it from the point of view of 'what was true before Mickey Mouse made an acquisition...'
The EU at least WAS canon.
The EU was a canon of its own, in that Lucasfilm oversaw it to a certain degree and it was supposed to be internally consistent. And whenever he assumed he wouldn't be making any more movies, George probably didn't much give a **** that other people were playing with his toys and giving the fans entertainment.
But new Star Wars movies were always going to trump novels. The new Disney Lucasfilm went surprisingly far in just declaring all the novels extracanonical at once, but at no point was George or anyone bound by those stories in making new films. Had George himself made the Sequel Trilogy without the Disney sale, the likelihood that the Thrawn Trilogy (almost universally acknowledged as the best of the EU) would have been decanonized as a side effect is still considerable. And even under the Disney regime, the owners reserve the right to pick bits and pieces from the Legends continuity and canonize them (as George did with the name Coruscant for the Republic's capital world). So EU/Legends remains as it has always been, a set of stories in the SW universe that might or might not turn out to be "true" in whole or in part as new movies are released. It's just that Disney has plans for a lot more movies than George ever did.
Actually, more than just Coruscant. Twi'lek was first named in WEG, Mace Windu (name only) was the name of a squib in Mos Eisley. There are a few more, IIRC, but this is all I can think of this close to sleep time.
Actually, more than just Coruscant. Twi'lek was first named in WEG, Mace Windu (name only) was the name of a squib in Mos Eisley. There are a few more, IIRC, but this is all I can think of this close to sleep time.
In the case of Mace Windu (or at least "Mace Windy"), that seems to have been one of the first, if not THE first, Star Wars character names Lucas came up with, so the EU took it from him in that case.
Actually, more than just Coruscant. Twi'lek was first named in WEG, Mace Windu (name only) was the name of a squib in Mos Eisley. There are a few more, IIRC, but this is all I can think of this close to sleep time.
In the case of Mace Windu (or at least "Mace Windy"), that seems to have been one of the first, if not THE first, Star Wars character names Lucas came up with, so the EU took it from him in that case.
Yeah it's a little inbred in some areas. WEG didn't pull it's material COMPLETELY out of its rear. They went back and referenced early drafts, concepts, and such on a regular bases and used that.
It's pretty interesting really. If you read the Galactic history entry in WEGs final core rulebook while it gets some minor details wrong (President Palpatine) and it's a tad vague, when you hold it up next to the prequel trilogy it's pretty darn close.
Actually, more than just Coruscant. Twi'lek was first named in WEG, Mace Windu (name only) was the name of a squib in Mos Eisley. There are a few more, IIRC, but this is all I can think of this close to sleep time.
In the case of Mace Windu (or at least "Mace Windy"), that seems to have been one of the first, if not THE first, Star Wars character names Lucas came up with, so the EU took it from him in that case.
Ah, good ol' warlord Mace Windy and his padawan.
Since the name was originally just a couple of scribbled pages of notes, it COULD have been a "u" instead of a "y". LOL. However, the overall point of my hijacking (many apologies) was the fact that Star Wars is an ever evolving idea. One can not keeps influence from one to the other from happening, either inspiration, influence, plagiarism, or direct usage.
Copenhagen Interpretation. Happens every day. "BTW, has anybody seen my cat?...Here Schrodinger!"
You have this fixed idea that Force Rating = Power and that characters we see on screen are arbitrarily at some level based on this scale you have fixed in your head, even though it doesn't match up with the rules system or canon sources. Nothing indicates that a Jedi Knight must have FR3, a Jedi Master have FR5 and Yoda or Sidious have the frankly terrifying FR7. This scale you have in your head produces things like Luke in Episode V potentially being able to throw the Millenium Falcon at someone, or Palpatine able to hurl multiple Star Destroyers at people. It's okay if you're saying that in your game Palpatine can do this, but it's confusing to people if you post in a thread from a new player that Palpatine is supposed to have a FR of 7. There's nothing anywhere that suggests such a thing and it's vastly at odds with canon.
You do things like refer to a chart giving Knight = FR3, Master = FR5 which not only isn't in the game but doesn't really make sense given that so much of what you do with Force is based around investment in powers anyway.
He's referring to this chart here:
It's an artifact from the Edge of the Empire Beta, (page 176) and was removed prior to the publication of the Edge of the Empire Core Rulebook. As early as that was in the development of the game (back when characters were limited to three specializations) it is probably safe to assume that it is no longer an accurate or useful means of measuring Force power within the game. While I won't speculate as to why the designers elected not to place the chart in the final product, I'm sure there was a reason it was removed.
It was a second hand recounting, but one of the devs pointedly said that there was a reason why the chart in the above post never made it into the core line of products.
I am indeed referring to that chart, when I bring up my views of things.
You have this fixed idea that Force Rating = Power and that characters we see on screen are arbitrarily at some level based on this scale you have fixed in your head, even though it doesn't match up with the rules system or canon sources. Nothing indicates that a Jedi Knight must have FR3, a Jedi Master have FR5 and Yoda or Sidious have the frankly terrifying FR7. This scale you have in your head produces things like Luke in Episode V potentially being able to throw the Millenium Falcon at someone, or Palpatine able to hurl multiple Star Destroyers at people. It's okay if you're saying that in your game Palpatine can do this, but it's confusing to people if you post in a thread from a new player that Palpatine is supposed to have a FR of 7. There's nothing anywhere that suggests such a thing and it's vastly at odds with canon.
You do things like refer to a chart giving Knight = FR3, Master = FR5 which not only isn't in the game but doesn't really make sense given that so much of what you do with Force is based around investment in powers anyway.
He's referring to this chart here:
I know. I've seen it before. But it never made it into the game and was something that was done VERY early on. It predates even EotE's final form, let alone AoR or FaD.
I can see where some people would feel it, though. The first two game lines were poignantly "you are NOT a Jedi! You CANNOT be Jedi!", and they allowed you to get up to Force Rating 2. Here, we might've drawn a comparison to "you have Force Potential, barely realized" as FR 1, while being trained as a Padawan might seem comparable to FR 2. Once they gave us a book where FR 3+ was going to be possible, we might draw the conclusion that FR 3 was what many "Jedi Knights" were, while higher numbers go on up. I always sort of assumed that it was sort of something like:
The table capped out, in my head, sort of like the traits do. All in my head, of course; there's no page number I can quote. It was mostly a scale that worked for me.
As for Vader, many Star Wars lines gave the Skywalkers a mechanical advantage for being "the Chosen Ones", so Anakin, and Luke, having a bit more whatever is certainly no stretch. On Vader's weakness, many games, and some book material, also hinted that losing his limbs DID impair his Force potential. Whether you want to say "the Force is an energy field created by all living things, and Darth Vader is now much less a living thing than he was", or chalk it up to his frail constitution, and near-constant, distracting pain, limiting his stamina with the Force, he is seen as much weaker than he was; this is just one more reason Palpatine wanted Luke to replace him; he was weak, broken, and his potential was mostly used up, while Luke was young, vital, and still powerful in the Force, in which he rose to ridiculous heights in the EU books. To this end, Vader honed his combat skills, where his enhanced size and strength only added to the destructive power of his lightsaber, while his innate futuresight allowed him to use that same weapon to block/deflect many attacks, though he limited his direct manipulations of the Force to a few moments here and there. Back when Force Lightning was a rare power, and a direct manifestation of the Force, rather than "that thing all Sith/Dark Side-users can do", and is actual electricity, it might not have mattered, but after this, the material hinted that, without his hands, Vader could never use the skill, and it would've run back through him, ruining his life support equipment.
Certainly, some of this is interpretation, and some of it is Expanded Universe stuff, which George Lucas signed off on, much of the time, and gladly took the money for, but then said "that wasn't all stuff I said", when put in a corner. Sometimes we need to remember that Lucas, while he likes SW, isn't a Star Wars nerd; it's a product he made to make money off of, and like the celebrities who go to cons because they played a character in that show you liked, they don't necessarily know all that much about the inner workings of the stuff; they just read a script, and took a check home. Some of that is just me being harsh on Lucas, certainly, but it is also true, from a certain point of view. Okay, I'm done rambling on.
In FFG system terms, whatever his Force Rating, Vader has some of his dice permanently committed to the not-normally-needed Force powers of "Not Die" and "Soothe the Constant Hideous, Burning Pain." When he was Anakin, he had those dice free.
When did they establish that Force Lightning really is electricity? I thought the whole explanation that it was a physical manifestation of hatred/the Dark Side was the reason given for why we (normally) only see Dark-Siders using it.
When did they establish that Force Lightning really is electricity? I thought the whole explanation that it was a physical manifestation of hatred/the Dark Side was the reason given for why we (normally) only see Dark-Siders using it.
I think (i didn't actually read it, but I think I read a promo first chapter or something) they had Luke recovering from Jedi in Truce at Bakura (aka Star Wars vs the soul eating lizard men from Uranus) and made a point of talking about how his injuries were the same as if he'd been electrocuted...
Well its evident from the Rebels show that Vader is still extremely strong in the Force. And he can choke people to death over television even in the movies. It's something I've never seen any reason to suppose (and some reasons not to), but weirdly people keep cropping up on this forum talking as if it's a fact.
When did they establish that Force Lightning really is electricity? I thought the whole explanation that it was a physical manifestation of hatred/the Dark Side was the reason given for why we (normally) only see Dark-Siders using it.
I'm not aware that it has ever been established. I always had the same interpretation that you did.
Well its evident from the Rebels show that Vader is still extremely strong in the Force. And he can choke people to death over television even in the movies. It's something I've never seen any reason to suppose (and some reasons not to), but weirdly people keep cropping up on this forum talking as if it's a fact.
There are quite a lot of things talked about as if it were fact that hasn't been established as canon yet. It's just been assumed for so long based on WEG or the EU that it's engrained as part of the lore.
-EF
Well its evident from the Rebels show that Vader is still extremely strong in the Force. And he can choke people to death over television even in the movies. It's something I've never seen any reason to suppose (and some reasons not to), but weirdly people keep cropping up on this forum talking as if it's a fact.
There are quite a lot of things talked about as if it were fact that hasn't been established as canon yet. It's just been assumed for so long based on WEG or the EU that it's engrained as part of the lore.
-EF
I figure that must be it. But as it's something that basically states amputees or disabled people are less spiritual / living than more able people it has always hit me whenever someone posts this like a slap across the face. It's like the "the Force permeates all living beings... but if you have an artificial leg it likes you just that little bit less". It seems to me like something from Shadowrun 1st edition and is a cyberpunk sort of idea. I guess the WEG game was contemporaneous with that movement. I'm glad to see Vader is portrayed as still a powerful figure, strong in the Force, in current official media.
On the subject of "Chosen One" status, I actually would, despite all my arguments earlier, give him a pretty high FR. Just not silly high. One thing that always worked for me about the "bring balance to the Force" prophecy is that he has two children, twins. It would have worked out in my game that balance was through these - one went good, one went very bad. Though I would imagine the new films squash that personal bit of headcanon.
Well its evident from the Rebels show that Vader is still extremely strong in the Force. And he can choke people to death over television even in the movies. It's something I've never seen any reason to suppose (and some reasons not to), but weirdly people keep cropping up on this forum talking as if it's a fact.
There are quite a lot of things talked about as if it were fact that hasn't been established as canon yet. It's just been assumed for so long based on WEG or the EU that it's engrained as part of the lore.
-EF
I figure that must be it. But as it's something that basically states amputees or disabled people are less spiritual / living than more able people it has always hit me whenever someone posts this like a slap across the face. It's like the "the Force permeates all living beings... but if you have an artificial leg it likes you just that little bit less". It seems to me like something from Shadowrun 1st edition and is a cyberpunk sort of idea. I guess the WEG game was contemporaneous with that movement. I'm glad to see Vader is portrayed as still a powerful figure, strong in the Force, in current official media.
On the subject of "Chosen One" status, I actually would, despite all my arguments earlier, give him a pretty high FR. Just not silly high. One thing that always worked for me about the "bring balance to the Force" prophecy is that he has two children, twins. It would have worked out in my game that balance was through these - one went good, one went very bad. Though I would imagine the new films squash that personal bit of headcanon.
Well said.
Something else that's always struck me as weird about the "losing limbs loses access to the force" is that it seems to imply that just having physically more mass makes one stronger in the Force. Why is pint-sized Yoda strong if size matters? Why don't we have more Wookie Jedi Masters? "Size matters not," says Yoda and I see no reason to not apply that to, "Limbs matter not." It's spiritual, not biological (midichlorians aside).
Well its evident from the Rebels show that Vader is still extremely strong in the Force. And he can choke people to death over television even in the movies. It's something I've never seen any reason to suppose (and some reasons not to), but weirdly people keep cropping up on this forum talking as if it's a fact.
There are quite a lot of things talked about as if it were fact that hasn't been established as canon yet. It's just been assumed for so long based on WEG or the EU that it's engrained as part of the lore.
-EF
I figure that must be it. But as it's something that basically states amputees or disabled people are less spiritual / living than more able people it has always hit me whenever someone posts this like a slap across the face. It's like the "the Force permeates all living beings... but if you have an artificial leg it likes you just that little bit less". It seems to me like something from Shadowrun 1st edition and is a cyberpunk sort of idea. I guess the WEG game was contemporaneous with that movement. I'm glad to see Vader is portrayed as still a powerful figure, strong in the Force, in current official media.
On the subject of "Chosen One" status, I actually would, despite all my arguments earlier, give him a pretty high FR. Just not silly high. One thing that always worked for me about the "bring balance to the Force" prophecy is that he has two children, twins. It would have worked out in my game that balance was through these - one went good, one went very bad. Though I would imagine the new films squash that personal bit of headcanon.
George Lucas has stated that after his injuries received on Mustafar Vader was significantly reduced in power of what he could have been without such injuries.
Obi-wan also stated with a negative connotation that Vader was "more machine now than man".
And after Luke strikes down Vader and cutting of Vader's hand in the process he looks down at his own mechanical hand and makes a connection with the path he's walking down and his father.
I think it's definitely a theme in Star Wars.
But I don't think it's a statement about the humanity of amputees. For one thing, Vader isn't just an amputee he also requires mechanical assistance to breath and stay alive. And Luke isn't portrayed as lesser for having lost a hand. Or Anakin for having lost a hand either.
But Lucas appears to have intended that at more of an extreme end, the more your natural body is replaced with machinery the weaker your connection to the force gets and the more extraordinary lengths taken to prolong life the closer to the dark side you get.
And while not from Lucas, the now canon Dawn of Defiance novel, certainly portrays Count Vidion in a similar way - with Vidion having gone so far in saving his own life and enhancing his body cybernetically that he's barely human (and Vidion is proud of it).