Anakin never achieved his full potential in the Force. He lost his limbs before he got there.

EU Luke does achieve his full potential, however, and that's where we see what Anakin might've been had he not been a moron. And Jacen Solo is also pretty obscenely strong. Probably the number 3 (EU) Sith behind Sidious and Vitiate (As seen on Ziost)

Well...

Let's say Luke is trying to lift the X Wing. He's got Yoda, a super light side presence standing next to him trying to teach him. Being the son of Anakin, he probably has a 3 FR by then. Yoda's not exactly coaching him to 'flip pips' is he?

A few things...

• Your PC is not Luke Skywalker. Nor has to behave like Yoda is watching her at all times.
• Force Rating 3 is actually fairly high. There's nothing we see in the OT that would require Luke has that many Force dice. FR does not equal how great an effect you can accomplish with the Force in this game. I don't know how many times in how many threads that has to be explained. You could have a character with FR2 able to move things far larger than another character who happened to have FR4 or even 5. It's not a simple relationship of higher FR means able to do more nor that son of Vader means "probably FR3". You just made these figures up without any reference to what we actually see on screen.
• Spending a few dark side pips now and then is NOT some terrible damnation of your character nor is it meant to be. It is intended that characters spend them from time to time, even if they are morally good characters.

I believe we've reached agree to disagree ville. I have a cosmic scale in my head for force ratings that I use to gauge where people are. And it's based mostly on that old scale they came up with that estimates Knights at 3, Masters at 5, and Yoda and Sidious (In ROTS) at 7.

I am fine to disagree. I have no problem with you playing the game how you want. Or casting the characters as strong or as weak as you want. The problem arises because you keep saying that various characters have such and such a Force Rating or XP value when there's no evidence of such on screen. I have a moderately good grasp of the rules. What you keep posting is inaccurate and misleads people who don't know the rules as well. You have this fixed idea that Force Rating = Power and that characters we see on screen are arbitrarily at some level based on this scale you have fixed in your head, even though it doesn't match up with the rules system or canon sources. Nothing indicates that a Jedi Knight must have FR3, a Jedi Master have FR5 and Yoda or Sidious have the frankly terrifying FR7. This scale you have in your head produces things like Luke in Episode V potentially being able to throw the Millenium Falcon at someone, or Palpatine able to hurl multiple Star Destroyers at people. It's okay if you're saying that in your game Palpatine can do this, but it's confusing to people if you post in a thread from a new player that Palpatine is supposed to have a FR of 7. There's nothing anywhere that suggests such a thing and it's vastly at odds with canon.

Anakin never achieved his full potential in the Force. He lost his limbs before he got there.

What does losing his limbs have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that losing your limbs reduces your connection with the Force, that you become less of a person somehow? It sounds like something from first edition Shadowrun that you lose magic / soul if parts of you are replaced with machinery. It's an idea that I have always found offensive. An amputee is somehow less of a living person? It's one of the few things I find downright repugnant in a role-playing game.

Potential to me is all Force rating. I feel reaching the potential is getting the power(s) and their upgrades and their mastery. Also I play discipline, cool, and vigilance with the ability to focus and achieve those potentials

What does losing his limbs have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that losing your limbs reduces your connection with the Force, that you become less of a person somehow? It sounds like something from first edition Shadowrun that you lose magic / soul if parts of you are replaced with machinery. It's an idea that I have always found offensive. An amputee is somehow less of a living person? It's one of the few things I find downright repugnant in a role-playing game.

Personally I just think that after the events of ep3, something inside him died, that he just never had the will to succeed his master, it was just coinidental that his personal maiming contributed to that. He was a dead man walking until he found his son.

Anakin never achieved his full potential in the Force. He lost his limbs before he got there.

EU Luke does achieve his full potential, however, and that's where we see what Anakin might've been had he not been a moron.

And that's kinda what bugs me. There's been this "Ohhhhhh CHOZEN OONEE" thing for awhile. I even want to say one of the D20 variants actually stapled a special rule to Anakins meevoks just to drive that point home.

But then we have this "Oh well Luke totally became what Anakin could have been" But until he does something like move a moon, or accurately predict the future in an actionable way (LOL for the first time ever in galactic history) Luke's uber potential seems to be pretty lackluster. He doesn't really do much past an FR 2 or 3 with an even smattering of Force Powers.

Anakin goes a little further... but not really. Even Darth Vader is a pretty straight forward Inquisitor based build.

Even in the films we see "the force is strong with him" and then.... it kinda gets spiced and wanders off... It makes the prophecy seem entirely about what Anakin is supposed to do and nothing to do with what he is.

Is there something in the films I missed, or is this an artifact of the franchise duration and EU influence on newer/younger fans?

Well...

Let's say Luke is trying to lift the X Wing. He's got Yoda, a super light side presence standing next to him trying to teach him. Being the son of Anakin, he probably has a 3 FR by then. Yoda's not exactly coaching him to 'flip pips' is he?

A few things...

1. Your PC is not Luke Skywalker. Nor has to behave like Yoda is watching her at all times.
2. Force Rating 3 is actually fairly high. There's nothing we see in the OT that would require Luke has that many Force dice. FR does not equal how great an effect you can accomplish with the Force in this game. I don't know how many times in how many threads that has to be explained. You could have a character with FR2 able to move things far larger than another character who happened to have FR4 or even 5. It's not a simple relationship of higher FR means able to do more nor that son of Vader means "probably FR3". You just made these figures up without any reference to what we actually see on screen.
3. Spending a few dark side pips now and then is NOT some terrible damnation of your character nor is it meant to be. It is intended that characters spend them from time to time, even if they are morally good characters.

I believe we've reached agree to disagree ville. I have a cosmic scale in my head for force ratings that I use to gauge where people are. And it's based mostly on that old scale they came up with that estimates Knights at 3, Masters at 5, and Yoda and Sidious (In ROTS) at 7.

And why I hate the PQ so much, everyone wants to be Special Snowflakes, which makes my Smuggler more special..

EU Luke shuts a black hole. So does Kyp Durron. EU Luke blasts Vong (which are Force Resistant...I guess you'd model that by making all difficulty ratings against them challenge dice instead) and sends 'em flying. I feel like it'd be easier to send you to youtube videos then try to explain the EU to those who haven't read it. Dark Empire Sidious wipes entire fleets out with Force Storm. There is such a thing as power creep. The EU is full of exactly that.

Jacen Solo takes a turbolaser to the face and walks away.

Vitiate...well, youtube Ziost. Watching the video speaks more eloquently about what things like FR 7 can do then I ever could.

EU Luke shuts a black hole. So does Kyp Durron. EU Luke blasts Vong (which are Force Resistant) and sends 'em flying. I feel like it'd be easier to send you to youtube videos then try to explain the EU to those who haven't read it. Dark Empire Sidious wipes entire fleets out with Force Storm. There is such a thing as power creep. The EU is full of exactly that.

Jacen Solo takes a turbolaser to the face and walks away.

Vitiate...well, youtube Ziost. Watching the video speaks more eloquently about what things like FR 7 can do then I ever could.

Those are Legends, not proven true in the SW Universe.

Until we see The Force Awakens, any ideas for what Luke can or can not do are nothing more than supposition. I'd be surprised to see him do much more than Obi-wan did Star Wars. I'll be interested to see what kind of abilities we get to see in the upcoming movie. And their take on the Force.

Well...

If you view it from the point of view of 'what was true before Mickey Mouse made an acquisition...'

The EU at least WAS canon.

Well...

If you view it from the point of view of 'what was true before Mickey Mouse made an acquisition...'

The EU at least WAS canon.

According to Lucas, it was very low on his list of canon, meaning he saw it getting out of control and was probably going to trash it anyways. Your arguement is moot now, black holes being shut and some of the other things that were done were way to OP and not My idea from the first time I saw SW in 1977, the prequel really ruined it all and we lost sight of what the OT was really about.

Now the way I see the Legends is, Siegfred, Paul Bunion, Pecos Bill, Johnny Appleseed, John Henry, all tale tales and based on real people, but only some of the stories are true. example, Luke shutting a black hole.

You play your OP Jedi and be light sword swinging gods, I'll be that special smuggler that transports you across the galaxy and keeps you safe to shut the black holes down, because everyone is a special extremely strong super duper Jedi.

And that's why I'm fully expecting TFA to open to the same amount of venom as the TPM did.

Just instead of screams of: "It's all shiny and silly and all about these silly Jedi and politics and senate hearings!" from the people that were around to watch the originals.

It will be screams of: "It's all cruddy and beat up and there's these old people, and Jedi aren't worshipped, and the Force isn't used continually, and where's my senate committee hearing? I want my pangalactic C-Span segment!" from the prequel crowd.

And that's why I'm fully expecting TFA to open to the same amount of venom as the TPM did.

Just instead of screams of: "It's all shiny and silly and all about these silly Jedi and politics and senate hearings!" from the people that were around to watch the originals.

It will be screams of: "It's all cruddy and beat up and there's these old people, and Jedi aren't worshipped, and the Force isn't used continually, and where's my senate committee hearing? I want my pangalactic C-Span segment!" from the prequel crowd.

Oh don't get me wrong, I liked the TPM movies and had to watch them over and over due to my son (whose Boy Scout Patrol was named the Clone Patrol for 3 years), the movies were enjoyable the first time.

I had heard somewhere when I was a kid that all was supposed to be bright and shiney in the beginning of Ani's life and as he turned to the dark side it was supposed to get darker, and was rather impressed when I saw that in the TPM.

It still doesn't change that a lot of the EU was starting to be ruined also with each writer trying to out do the other with bigger and better things. I actually got away from the Jedi centric stories and started reading the ones where the main characters did not have force powers. So yes, Angel I did read the EU books.

Well, I did say Power Creep was kind the reason why Force Ratings of 7 or even more are reasonable.

I'd even guesstimate the Ones of Mortis at a full on 10.

What I'm trying to say is, there is sufficient power creep in the EU to justify such things. Which includes the TOR series of games. Vitiate on Ziost really stands out.

Besides. "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force." </Vader>

Suppose that's literally true? How much FR do you need to wipe a planet without tech?

Well, I did say Power Creep was kind the reason why Force Ratings of 7 or even more are reasonable.

I'd even guesstimate the Ones of Mortis at a full on 10.

What I'm trying to say is, there is sufficient power creep in the EU to justify such things.

I did say it was more likely a legend, something that Luke and the others were working on and the idea that they were powerful enough to do it with just the force is more compelling than doing it with a more mundane way is how the story went.

Everyone wants to see their heros that way, but lets look at the story of a real man that beat a machine in laying track, John Henry, worked on the railroad and was unmatched by anyone or anything at driving rail road ties, now there was a machine created that would beat him and he challenged the machine to a duel, he was competing and the mountain he was driving through felt like it was breathing as he went through it and he stated that's just his hammer sucking wind. In the end he defeated the machine through sheer will and strength and the machine blew up then ol John died. Sounds like the way hero would want to be remembered about his life right. He was a superhero right? Well let's stop and think, The machine kept breaking down over and over again so John was able to beat him. Which is the better story?

You keep going the way you want to go with your Jedi and FR and so on, but I believe the community disagrees with you on that and if you ever played at one of their tables you will be very disappointed. Sorry, but the EU arguement is moot, and you are the only one arguing it.

I don't believe they'd ask someone with such a vastly different view of things to their table.

Birds of a feather, and all that. The people'd that want me are those who think like me.

Not my point, the point is you are in the minority and your choices are small at this point

The ad populum argument is irrelevant unless one of these gentlemen actually invites me to play.

It's moot till that happens/

BTW, our stories in our games are Legends also so what the hell. But please don't confuse people that are trying to learn RAW and RAI by posting stuff that is legends.

Think it through then. Imagine what it's actually like having someone who thinks like I do in a game.

Please stop hijacking this thread.

Then, on topic, no, the Dark Side isn't stronger. The Rule of 2 Sith are generally equal to the best of the Jedi Order, but Sith in other eras, like Ancient, Lost Tribe and One Sith...are decidedly less impressive.

YES.

Oh as in in-game, rules and stuff? I dunno. It's up to how creative the players can get with it really.

Some old magic tricks (think from D&D)

Ensnare: ties up one target creature for a turn. Not very special. Now cast it on a winged creature so it can't flt and smacks into the ground taking damage.: Much better.

Create water. Creates a pint of clear water. Spell didn't say where. Some clever player used the spell to make the water apear inside the head or lungs of an ork. Scarcth one ork...

And don't get me started on the giant zombie beetle taxi driven by a necromancer.

Well I'm on the one or two force ratings are not what we see but I am also not on the way of any force rating ever over 5....even Yoda amd Palpatine were at best 5

But also feel the Yoda and Palpatine of sw were maxed on upgrades

I get that "The force was strong with him" and "His mindichoribang levels are above 50 megasatans" (Note: I think it was worded slightly different)

I'm going to find a way to use "megasatans" in a sentence if it kills me. Just sayin'.