Okay, so I probably should know this, but I'm not certain. One of the biggest things my friend-pool had against this game line was the "no Jedi" thing the other two lines established, and while I admit I appreciate them taking the time to make the GAME work, before weighing it down with the extra oomph that is the Force (I DO know Edge and Age have it, but it's sort of a side bit, in my opinion), and the Jedi who are inherently better than everybody else, because they are just like everybody else, PLUS they have the Force, I was on the boat with them, at first. Now, F&D finally comes along, and gives us the remnants of the Jedi the setting they intend would have, and I have a problem. My friends, as said, are Jedi fans, and want to have the Force, but the game does a nice job of trying to say "NO, you WON'T render all of the non-FUser characters moot!", and starts you with a whopping 1 Force Rating, or NONE, if you are playing the other lines. So, you want to use your powers, because you spent the XP to buy them, and you only roll one die, and this one die, be it the app on your phone, or the die in your hand, keeps rolling dark side/black pip. On the one hand, I actually like this, because the only reason I've ever really seen in any other Star Wars game to "walk the line of the Dark Path" is to be a ******, and ham up the game with your BS shenanigans, while this game actually gives you a bit of a reason to chance the Dark Side; the **** dice like to roll black pips, even though there's as much white on it, and more 2 white pip sides than 2 black pip sides. If you are playing a character who intends to use their Force powers, though, what's the plan, now?

The main question: With the beta for Force & Destiny, plus the errata and any previews, what all goes into changing a black pip white, so my Force user can spend it to activate a power? I think there's Strain, something with Destiny flips, and I don't really know.

I get not wanting to let the thing that always took over in SW games take over, but if it doesn't work, that's worse, because this is SW, and three times out of four, not getting any white pips when it really counts seems to smack of worse. Yoda might have FR 5, and he can still roll BP, BP, 2BP, BP, WP, making his power maybe work, but maybe not to the degree he needed it to, for what "Yoda" would be doing. As far as I know, there are not abilities to change pips, nor saving them for later; the talents occasionally use them, but none of the talents seem to effect the Force dice, or their results. Now, I'm not saying it doesn't work, just asking how does it, so I can assuage their worries, and maybe get to run a game of this. If you have it in you to do an example, that would help, so I get the Destiny thing, strain, and whatever their "Dark Side points" are being called (Morality?); I'm not with my books, right now, so I'm kind of butchering this stuff, sorry. Thanks in advance for any assistance.

As far as I know, you don't "change" a black force pip to white. What happens is when you roll your force dice and don't get the needed white pips you can choose to either:

A: Fail to use the power.

OR

B: Use the dark side by using a number of Black force pips needed to activate the power (Assuming you rolled enough black pips as well). - Using a Black Pip means that your character earns conflict (I.E. Uses a bit of the dark side), which is part of the Morality mechanic.

I would tell you to re-read the Morality sections in F&D Beta to get a better understanding of that mechanic.

Over several hundred uses of the Force, it evens out - you will roll Light side pips less often, but you are more likely to roll more at any given time. If you are trying to do something simple - like the base use of heal/harm - with a Force rating of 1, the dark side will actually be able to be triggered more often. However, if you are trying to use the range upgrade - 2 pips total - you are more likely to be able to trigger it if you are a Light Side user. 1 in 12 attempts will succeed for a dark side user, but 3 in 12 for a Light side user.

This creates the scenario where the Light side is actually more likely to be successful at complex or grand scale uses, but the Dark side is better at quick and dirty

The main question: With the beta for Force & Destiny, plus the errata and any previews, what all goes into changing a black pip white, so my Force user can spend it to activate a power? I think there's Strain, something with Destiny flips, and I don't really know.

There's some nuance here, so short mechanical answer first, and nuance second. The second part is really really really important though so don't skip out.

Mechanics: Flip a Dpoint, spend strain equal to the amount of pips you want to flip, and take 1 single point of conflict. The Dpoint is required, if you're out, you're out.

Super Important Nuance: Ok, the Conflict thing gets peoples panties in a bunch, but this is because of not understanding the rules, the intent, and how it all comes together in play. I'm going to put the in bold to make sure I get my point across: No player character, even a super lightsider, should ever be afraid of that single point of conflict.

Morality and Conflict are secondary mechancis akin to Duty and Obligation. Conflict is a session by session measure that helps determine Morality adjustment, Morality is the actual ongoing count that has it's various bonuses and setbacks when you hit certain thresholds.

Earning a few points of Conflict over a single session will (in all but really rare circumstances) have little to no effect on your Morality Score. Flipping pips gains you one Conflict per instance, but acting like a butthole (using the force or not) will get you far more far faster.

The idea behind giving a Conflict point to flip pips isn't about showing some horrible darkside influence, it's just a simple mechanical way of keeping force uses from Forcing out all the time on everything. It's there simply to ask "Are you SURE you need to use the Force right now?" That's it. So when a good Lightside character that's being well played uses the force... he'll never fear flipping his pips because he's otherwise keeping his nose clean and he already knows before he even rolls the dice the answer to "Are you SURE you need to use the Force right now?" is "Yes, yes I do." Obi-wan flipped pips, Yoda, Mace, Ki-adi, Ahsoka, and so on. You should never be afraid to either.

Likewise the GM shouldn't punish a player for merely flipping pips, just track the Morality as the rules say, and work off that. Not only will the game run better, but the players will actually end up with power usage more like you see in the films since they'll almost always be able to use the force when the need to.

I know that all sounds kinda like rudimentary, obvious stuff, but the boards are peppered with people doing all kinds of silly things to avoid 1 conflict or GMs hammer their players over it. I remember one guy that went bonkers and essentially turned the player to the total darkside after only a pip or two being flipped, and another guy who let another player character die because the alternative meant taking a single point of conflict himself.

and another guy who let another player character die because the alternative meant taking a single point of conflict himself.

I'm not doing anything yet, not for certain, but I am toying with some ideas. I'm thinking about using a sliding scale, sure, with Obligation at the dark end, and Duty at the light.

Devotion to the light breeds rewards, bonuses (boni?), while slipping to the dark path breeds lust for power, fear, anxiety, and plagues people. Overcome your obligation by going neutral should be rewarded, and so should adhering to the light.

I just don't want one side to seem a punishment and redemption in the light to be a super reward. Maybe duty and obligation at both ends?

Using the darkside for bad things will quickly bring you to the seductive side of the darkside in my games. I usually don't go with any system's rules on light and dark. If a player uses the dark side or acts dark I give them warnings sometimes in story and sometimes in feelings. If they keep on that path they eventually go dark

Using the darkside for bad things will quickly bring you to the seductive side of the darkside in my games. I usually don't go with any system's rules on light and dark. If a player uses the dark side or acts dark I give them warnings sometimes in story and sometimes in feelings. If they keep on that path they eventually go dark

Thanks for reminding me...

If you decide to take pip flipping, or the darkside in general, more seriously like Kil has, it's probably best if you consider the following changes:

-Don't even bother with Morality. The system was built with the assumption the player would be gaining conflict, at least a point or two, on a regular bases. If that's not how you roll, the system will act up.

-Consider making other mechanical changes to the force, like doubling the starting Force Rating or using something like the current D&D advantage system (roll 2 dice, use the better of the two) when making force checks. The entire force use system was built expecting the players to flip pips from time to time. If you're not allowing that (or making it very dangerous to do) then pumping up the Force system to favor the player a little better will help offset the shortcoming. The dice is skewed toward the dark, so without something to help out it's really likely that your force user won't ever be able to actually use the force.

Even the Devs have said publicly that a Force user that refuses to flip pips is limiting himself beyond what the system intends. After all, one of the big bonuses to hitting the lightside threshold on the Morality scale is you get additional Destiny and Strain.... you know, exactly what you need to flip those pips and use the force like a boss.

Oh I'm not taking it more seriously. It's more I'm using the darkside more based on your intentions then just the dice. I also already start all force users with a Force Rating of two, but limit that no force user can ever go above a 4 force rating, unless by story considered a master. I think force rating one is one of three flaws of the system and the other is a Force rating above a 4 and have ran both. I feel both the 1 and 5+ are equally not as enjoyable by the GM and the players.

The last flaw by my personal preference is that morality gain or loss should be roleplayed. Using excessive dark pips will eventually catch up but I don't make everyone count. If intentions are dark and you use dark then the combo will result in a morality loss. Also my players gain bonus xp for roleplaying and they often tell me when they are giving I to fear, anger, desperation , or power of the darkside. I like the morality rating and rules in regards to a way of the GM keeping track, just not the way it goes up and down. I love darkside costing strain. I also have made using more than two dark pips sometimes causing physical negatives and not just the strain

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

I can probably help here. Whilst I wont say this is my specialist area, it's one I know a fair bit about. But first, recall a line of dialogue from the movies:

Luke: "Is the dark side stronger, master Yoda?"

Yoda: "Stronger? No... Easier".

FFG have done something remarkable and managed to replicate that mechanically. Each Force die has eight dark pips and eight white pips. But they're distributed differently. I think you know all this but I'm going somewhere with this, so indulge me.

On average you will get the same number of pips either way. Neither light nor dark are stronger. But they are different. As you noticed you will get a facing with dark side points more often than you will light side points. You're effectively trading a steadier but less exceptional power use for something that is a bit riskier but with more heroic spikes. Here are some points to consider about that:

* 2/3rds vs 1/3rd is actually not that wild a swing when you're playing a game. Statistically it's valid but you will notice it less than you think at a game table where good and bad rolls happen all the time whether that's shooting, piloting or whatever. It's a little off from fifty-fifty but not so much that it's going to be continually in your face.

* Once you start getting somewhere with the Force powers, you're going to want more than one pip anyway. If you need to activate that Magnitude upgrade to your Move power, you actually have a GREATER chance of achieving that on a single die with light pips than you do with dark pips (three faces have double light pips, only one has double dark pips).

* Using Dark Side pips is not some terrible crime in this game that will invite instant damnation of your character. You can dip into dark side in a session and so long as you've behaved moderately well the impact to your Morality will be easily compensated for with general heroism. If your players have this idea that spending a dark side pip is a Big Deal, disabuse them of this. Even Obi Wan spends dark side pips from time to time. It's normal and it would take a LOT of this behaviour to make most PCs dark side. So go ahead and let a little of that anger flow. You're fighting bad guys - you can spend a little dark side to help defeat them. Once you realise that the odd point of conflict isn't a big deal, a lot of your players concerns about this go away.

* You wont be on one die forever. You're starting characters. They're meant to only have so much success, just as if you're shooting a blaster at someone you're only meant to have so much success. If playing beginner force users jars too much with what you want from the game (you want to play more advanced Padawan or even full knights), then the system is fine with that, it's just not the default campaign. Start at "Knight Level" and award the extra XP. Then people can start at FR2 if they really want to.

* It's not all about the pips. Characters can do a lot of "Jedi things" without having to roll a force die. You still get to twirl your lightsabre, parry blaster bolts. You can commit force die to sustain special effects without having to roll them. You're still a Force user even if you don't succeed in hurling the druids across the room every time.

* Which brings us on to narrative effects. You don't have to (and probably shouldn't) interpret not activating a power as some kind of performance failure. Don't get the pips you need to activate your Move upgrade? Well that doesn't mean that you just randomly couldn't use the Force this turn. It means that maybe the Droid gripped onto the support pillar the moment it felt you begin to push against it and you need to be faster; it means that you started to use the Force but a too-close blaster bolt near your head completely blew your concentration. Interpret it properly and it may seem less like weakness on their part of the character and more just that they're not Mace Windu, yet.

* Activating Force powers is only one thing that characters do. They'll be leaping around, running along bridges over giant chasms, swinging lightsabres, trying to repair spaceships, hiding from storm troopers... Don't get hung up on them not having 100% success rate in one aspect. In fact, honestly they shouldn't.

* Finally that ratio of Dark Side to Light Side points needs to be that way around. The Dark Side needs to be this ever present thing tempting people to use it. It wouldn't work as well if light side was more common.

I hope these help. Personally, I think the Force system in this game is marvellous.

EDIT: I'm not sure what being "on the boat about something" means, btw. I think you might be looking for "on the fence".

Oh I'm not taking it more seriously. It's more I'm using the darkside more based on your intentions then just the dice. I also already start all force users with a Force Rating of two, but limit that no force user can ever go above a 4 force rating, unless by story considered a master. I think force rating one is one of three flaws of the system and the other is a Force rating above a 4 and have ran both. I feel both the 1 and 5+ are equally not as enjoyable by the GM and the players.

The last flaw by my personal preference is that morality gain or loss should be roleplayed. Using excessive dark pips will eventually catch up but I don't make everyone count. If intentions are dark and you use dark then the combo will result in a morality loss. Also my players gain bonus xp for roleplaying and they often tell me when they are giving I to fear, anger, desperation , or power of the darkside. I like the morality rating and rules in regards to a way of the GM keeping track, just not the way it goes up and down. I love darkside costing strain. I also have made using more than two dark pips sometimes causing physical negatives and not just the strain

I think this highlights how different people see different meanings in the dice. For example, you're talking about wanting to substitute intent for action as the meaningful distinction. That's interesting because one of the main tenets expressed by the Jedi in the media is that the ends do not justify the means. It's not about whether you think getting that information from a prisoner will save a life or not, it's that Jedi do not use fear or torture as a tool. (Witness that episode where Anakin deliberately waits to interrogate someone until after the other Jedi have left). It's actually a pretty strong theme in some episodes and in the movies that ends do not justify the means. And this is in common with many real world spiritual beliefs.

I think it's important for a GM to have a good handle on what use of dark side points means otherwise players it's going to seem mystifying to players why their Morality should drop from, say, saving someone from falling to their death. I'm going to just repost my interpretation from another thread as I'd only end up re-writing it anyway:

I don't think the Force cares about Good Guys and Bad Guys. It's more of a spiritual and mental state of being whether you are light side or dark side. So perhaps something like this...

"You try to keep your mental focus to lift your ally up from the rockslide as the boulders crash towards them. But each time you try, the crashing and the knowledge of what will happen if you fail shatters your clarity. Fear grips you as you see her scrabbling on the slope desperately trying to climb out of the way. Not compassion for her, but fear of losing her, of the grief... and the anger that she should be taken away from you. With a surge of fury you raise your hand into the air, lifting her upwards to float over the lethal terrain, until she is pulled to you and you grab her out of the air and grip her tightly. Nothing will hurt Padmé her. Nothing will take her from you."

It's not about intent, at least not exclusively. It's also about method, imo.

Hmm. Being the sort of guy who absolutely will not use dark pips ever (what's that? You're falling to your death? Better roll up a new character then, cause the Force doesn't like you), I usually RPed Dark Pips as getting a terrible headache as I fought the Dark Side off. "The Dark Side is strong here" he'd say whenever those black pips showed up.

The lack of a light pip was always played as 'nothing happened.' Trying to use move without a light pip means you were as powerful as Han Solo that turn.

And if you flipped a pip....that wasn't done at that table. Flipping a pip was something only Anakin Skywalker and Jacen Solo did. (and Darth Vader frequently converted Light Pips. Maul, Dooku, and Sidious wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole)

In short, imagine a world where flipping a pip is 10 points of conflict, and you've got the general idea.

Hmm. Being the sort of guy who absolutely will not use dark pips ever (what's that? You're falling to your death? Better roll up a new character then, cause the Force doesn't like you), I usually RPed Dark Pips as getting a terrible headache as I fought the Dark Side off. "The Dark Side is strong here" he'd say whenever those black pips showed up.

The lack of a light pip was always played as 'nothing happened.' Trying to use move without a light pip means you were as powerful as Han Solo that turn.

And if you flipped a pip....that wasn't done at that table. Flipping a pip was something only Anakin Skywalker and Jacen Solo did. (and Darth Vader frequently converted Light Pips. Maul, Dooku, and Sidious wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole)

In short, imagine a world where flipping a pip is 10 points of conflict, and you've got the general idea.

And like all the previous posts above, you missed the point that flipping 1 Pip is one conflict.

The Darkside is mildly more consistant then the Lightside. But I would actually say it's somewhat weaker overall much of the time because it doesn't have the same power spikes that a lightsider would generally have. Though overall it should be roughly even; just sometimes in the same way that inexperienced force users may struggle to bring out the force properly; though I imagine for someone starting out as a Darkside user the same problems would be had; you might be a little more consistant then a lightside user; but you can only do really basic things and even then occationally they will get nothing out of it. At least until they get more pips or try and discover their heart once more.

Angel: Fair enough if thats your interpretation of it; and it's probably the same interpretation that a lot of masterful Jedi had. But then that is also why they fell they were unable to associate with people around them, even stagmented to the extent that were essentially second fiddle to corrupt politics, thus had no allies when the universe turned on them. Though considering your DM is the kind who hands out Lightside points for something I would consider a conflicted act, it might just be that we play different games using the same rules. Which is fair enough.

By RAW, unless Emperor Palpatine was directly observing (which considering his mastery of sith magic I imagine it could be DMed that the darkside is much strongly felt in his pressence) flipping a pip is just that; drawing directly on your emotions for strength when your displined mind isn't enough.

That actually might make a cool encounter actually now that I think about it; having having to fight an Inquistors apprentice;associate while they fill the air with Dark vibes, amplifying any conflict gained from emotions at that point. I might suggest something of that nature to my DM considering my character is likely to have several clashes with the Inquistation soon; all of which is experimenting with sith alchemary that my character is trying to research to save his old friend.

I have a much nicer view of how this works, mechanically, and aesthetically, now. Thank you very much everyone for your assistance. Have a good one, and stay gaming.

One other thing to add is that I'm under the philosophy that there must be balance in the force and in the individual. Flipping 2 light and 2 dark pips and using both shows balance in the force. The force user who never uses dark that suddenly does has more to fear then the user who uses a balance in the force. The higher you are the faster you fall.

Well...

Let's say Luke is trying to lift the X Wing. He's got Yoda, a super light side presence standing next to him trying to teach him. Being the son of Anakin, he probably has a 3 FR by then. Yoda's not exactly coaching him to 'flip pips' is he?

Well...

Let's say Luke is trying to lift the X Wing. He's got Yoda, a super light side presence standing next to him trying to teach him. Being the son of Anakin, he probably has a 3 FR by then. Yoda's not exactly coaching him to 'flip pips' is he?

A few things...

1. Your PC is not Luke Skywalker. Nor has to behave like Yoda is watching her at all times.
2. Force Rating 3 is actually fairly high. There's nothing we see in the OT that would require Luke has that many Force dice. FR does not equal how great an effect you can accomplish with the Force in this game. I don't know how many times in how many threads that has to be explained. You could have a character with FR2 able to move things far larger than another character who happened to have FR4 or even 5. It's not a simple relationship of higher FR means able to do more nor that son of Vader means "probably FR3". You just made these figures up without any reference to what we actually see on screen.
3. Spending a few dark side pips now and then is NOT some terrible damnation of your character nor is it meant to be. It is intended that characters spend them from time to time, even if they are morally good characters.

Well...

Let's say Luke is trying to lift the X Wing. He's got Yoda, a super light side presence standing next to him trying to teach him. Being the son of Anakin, he probably has a 3 FR by then. Yoda's not exactly coaching him to 'flip pips' is he?

More like FR2 at the most . He struggled to TK his lightsaber in the beginning of the movie, so FR1 at that point. Since training with Yoda he might have gotten +1 FR at that point.

Heck, based off of the fight with Vader, it's not even certain he had FR2 at that point, but it's possible. With all the struggling he does, it seems to me that he has FR1 and spent most of his XP on Force powers (with a discount, since he had a mentor).

-EF

P.S. Ninja'd by the esteemable knasserII

EDIT:

Quoting this because I can't like it twice!

Well...

Let's say Luke is trying to lift the X Wing. He's got Yoda, a super light side presence standing next to him trying to teach him. Being the son of Anakin, he probably has a 3 FR by then. Yoda's not exactly coaching him to 'flip pips' is he?

A few things...

• Your PC is not Luke Skywalker. Nor has to behave like Yoda is watching her at all times.
• Force Rating 3 is actually fairly high. There's nothing we see in the OT that would require Luke has that many Force dice. FR does not equal how great an effect you can accomplish with the Force in this game. I don't know how many times in how many threads that has to be explained. You could have a character with FR2 able to move things far larger than another character who happened to have FR4 or even 5. It's not a simple relationship of higher FR means able to do more nor that son of Vader means "probably FR3". You just made these figures up without any reference to what we actually see on screen.
• Spending a few dark side pips now and then is NOT some terrible damnation of your character nor is it meant to be. It is intended that characters spend them from time to time, even if they are morally good characters.

Well...

Let's say Luke is trying to lift the X Wing. He's got Yoda, a super light side presence standing next to him trying to teach him. Being the son of Anakin, he probably has a 3 FR by then. Yoda's not exactly coaching him to 'flip pips' is he?

A few things...

1. Your PC is not Luke Skywalker. Nor has to behave like Yoda is watching her at all times.
2. Force Rating 3 is actually fairly high. There's nothing we see in the OT that would require Luke has that many Force dice. FR does not equal how great an effect you can accomplish with the Force in this game. I don't know how many times in how many threads that has to be explained. You could have a character with FR2 able to move things far larger than another character who happened to have FR4 or even 5. It's not a simple relationship of higher FR means able to do more nor that son of Vader means "probably FR3". You just made these figures up without any reference to what we actually see on screen.
3. Spending a few dark side pips now and then is NOT some terrible damnation of your character nor is it meant to be. It is intended that characters spend them from time to time, even if they are morally good characters.

I believe we've reached agree to disagree ville. I have a cosmic scale in my head for force ratings that I use to gauge where people are. And it's based mostly on that old scale they came up with that estimates Knights at 3, Masters at 5, and Yoda and Sidious (In ROTS) at 7.

…

I believe we've reached agree to disagree ville. I have a cosmic scale in my head for force ratings that I use to gauge where people are. And it's based mostly on that old scale they came up with that estimates Knights at 3, Masters at 5, and Yoda and Sidious (In ROTS) at 7.

Even if that scale held true, Luke wasn't a Knight until RotJ. So based off of your own assumptions—that a fair number of other gamers disagree with—Luke couldn't have FR3 during ESB, since he interrupted his Jedi Knight training. So FR1, FR2 tops, when he tries to lift the X-wing.

Even if Luke had enough XP invested in Move to actually life the fighter, he was too focused on proving himself to Yoda that he didn't flip a DP and use those dark pips. And that is why he failed.

-EF

One other thing to add is that I'm under the philosophy that there must be balance in the force and in the individual. Flipping 2 light and 2 dark pips and using both shows balance in the force. The force user who never uses dark that suddenly does has more to fear then the user who uses a balance in the force. The higher you are the faster you fall.

Personally my idea of balience is moderation. One who never uses it is often weaker, but one who abuses it will fall.

Well...

Let's say Luke is trying to lift the X Wing. He's got Yoda, a super light side presence standing next to him trying to teach him. Being the son of Anakin, he probably has a 3 FR by then. Yoda's not exactly coaching him to 'flip pips' is he?

Largely consistent, since the only object he moved prior to the x wing was a lightsaber. So he just didn't get what he had to do

Well, I figured Luke, like his father, had extra raw power due to the Chosen One Lineage.

But if he has no extra power, then yeah, it's a 2. And a 3 in ROTJ.

Besides, who knows what his discipline ranks are at the time. He's not exactly packing a ton of yellows. Yoda told him 'control, control, you must learn control.'

Sounds like Yoda wants him to buy some Discipline Ranks.

Well, I figured Luke, like his father, had extra raw power due to the Chosen One Lineage.

I keep seeing this, but beyond the D20 stats.... did we ever see this in play?

What did Anakin do in the films that displayed this?

I get that "The force was strong with him" and "His mindichoribang levels are above 50 megasatans" (Note: I think it was worded slightly different) but was there ever a point where someone said something like "Wow Anakin, no one else could have lifted that boulder"

Just... something that's been bugging me...

Angelalex242's ideal is that in order to be a true (Jedi?) light-side Force user you must have enough Force dice to roll that you will invariably always have light pips to spend without using dark pips. She/he feels that if you use dark pips at any time it is wrong. It's a way of thinking. Not the ideal the designers were aiming for but it is a thought, if expensive (xp-wise) thought, because in order to have such regular success you need a mittful of Force dice. Ah well, luckily enough this game has leeway for a variety of thoughts on how the Force works.

Or we could look at it as Luke had Force rating 3, but no upgrades for higher silouettes? Being strong in the force, but no training makes more sense to me. I agree we don't see 5's, 6's, or more like many think.

100% agree many can play game with their views since system is very good at working with different interpretations.