Hmmm yea, Tarkin would allow it to engineer every turn.

At 92 points with every upgrade slot and an extra officer slot I can see the ISD running some people well over 150 in points.

Admiral C: 10

Intel Officer: 7

Expanded Hanger Bay: 5

Flight Controllers: 6

Advanced Projectors: 6

Expanded Armaments: 10 (because a Nebulon-B worth of dice on the side is scary)

That's what 44 extra points already. Mind you that list of upgrades scare the heck out of me! That is a huge amount of firepower and has 5 squadron without the token. . .

And that's before you factor in the new generation of upgrades. The new turbo laser and Ion cannon have the suggestion of being brutal.

To me, 92 points sounds a bit low. From the preview the ISD seems to be (roughly), a VSDII with expanded launchers, hanger bay and engine techs (noting the comments that they might make the speed 3 yaw really sluggish!).

By itself that would make 111 points, and still allow a complete choice of upgrades, plus more shields and hull and a better spread of defence tokens.

so we can all agree FFG needs to hurry the hell up with the spoilers

so we can all agree FFG needs to hurry the hell up with the spoilers

And the models! I've never seen a wargame company with such an atrociously lazy release schedule Half a year wait for a total of 4/5 models per side...other companies release an entire army worth of different models in that timespan.

Hopefully Monday

I know one of my LGS are still crossing every possible limb and digit for August...

92 points is probably better from a game building perspective as you can balance out your fleet with more ships...

Still, only 7 points more than a VII.... Do we still think it I going to be Speed 3?

I imagine it will be speed 3 but maneuver horribly at that speed. I will guess that its maneuverability is okay at speed one or two but it will probably be something like "- 1 1" at speed three, or maybe worse. Two things come to mind.

1. Han Solo bragging about outrunning star destroyers, I am talking the "big Corillian ships, not the local bulk cruisers." (makes it sound fast).
2. Three Imperial Star Destroyers sideswiping each other while trying to catch the Falcon. (makes them look unmaneuverable at that speed).

So there's a big chance that ISDs will eventually replace VSD2s in our builds? That's exactly what happened in lore.

Flavorwin, FFG.

Flavorwin yes, but bad for game balance. You don't want a ship people have already spent money on to become worthless. They've done a great job balancing so far, so I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Based on the point difference between a Glad 1 to VSD 1, and a Neb-b Support Refit to an AF2B, I'd guess the ISD 1 at about 100 points. Now, I'm not a professional game developer or anything, so they'll have worked the ratios much better than I. But if it holds in the rough progression of ship size, I'd guess about 100 points.

There totally going to be 57 points

I noticed that the Amazon.com picture of the Imperial Star Destroyer now shows it in the box and not standing alone.

it also says "in stock sept 30"

we know it's going to be awesome

92 points is very cheap sounding, though. Going to potentially force the VSD-2 out of business at that cost

Don't forget that pricing differences for ships is quite small, in the 10-point range. The Gladiator is up to 62, the VSD1 is 73. The Nebulon is 57, while an AF comes at 72 - 15points. This is how FFG balanced the point-cost in this game, probably betting that once you put a big ship on the board, you need at least *some* upgrades to make it truly shine. And there's also the fact that many ships add up in firepower much better, negating many defense tokens.

92 for the cheap version sounds fine to me.

... 92 for the Cheap Version... You could take 4 in a 400pt list and still have room for an Admiral... I don't know wether that's good or bad...

... 92 for the Cheap Version... You could take 4 in a 400pt list and still have room for an Admiral... I don't know wether that's good or bad...

Think of 3 VSDs at 300pts, it's probably more or less the same, but with more bombers on your side.

... 92 for the Cheap Version... You could take 4 in a 400pt list and still have room for an Admiral... I don't know wether that's good or bad...

Pretty sure I'd be happy to to play against 4 naked ISDs with my 3 ship, full squadron list. Easy win.

... 92 for the Cheap Version... You could take 4 in a 400pt list and still have room for an Admiral... I don't know wether that's good or bad...

Pretty sure I'd be happy to to play against 4 naked ISDs with my 3 ship, full squadron list. Easy win.

well that depends

even moving like a fattie, ISDs have a fat(ter) arse and less efficient everything arc apart from the front so they're not going to pull of the nahnahnahnah-nahnah style of play as effectively

I do hope Dras is correct in thinking a 92 point base will be naturally discouraged from replacing the VSD-II due to volume of fire + needing upgrades to crank up to 11, but we're still very much up in the air at this point

oh, the anticipation

I can see that as well. 7 points may not seem like a lot but it can be huge when it comes down to it. Hmmmm at 400 points I can fit 3 VSD's (1 or 2's) and 2 GSD 1's so yea compared to that I am not sure how good 3 ISD's will be.

Though that list has no upgrades but Skreed. I think I would use the VSD 1's so I can add upgrades to the GSD's.

I can see that as well. 7 points may not seem like a lot but it can be huge when it comes down to it. Hmmmm at 400 points I can fit 3 VSD's (1 or 2's) and 2 GSD 1's so yea compared to that I am not sure how good 3 ISD's will be.

Though that list has no upgrades but Skreed. I think I would use the VSD 1's so I can add upgrades to the GSD's.

I've tried one of those 3VSD/2GSD fleets. They're pretty stripped down--ACMs on both GSD Is, plus one Demolisher title leaves room for 3 VSD 1s, Motti/Screed, and 21/19 left over for VSD upgrades and/or your bid. You don't have much margin for error when you are engaged, but 3 VSD front arcs can deny an incredible amount of space on the board. Run maneuver commands for the first two or three turns and recklessly bull-rush at speed 2, and ACMs are almost viable on the VSD (expanded launchers maybe, too, though the price is a little high for my tastes; either way, odds are someone's forced into close range, either by the Gladiators or one of the other Victories pushing forwards). If your objective cuts the board size down (minefields, fleet ambush) or forces both sides into one spot (contested outpost), even better.

Plus the look on your opponent's face when you start is priceless...

... 92 for the Cheap Version... You could take 4 in a 400pt list and still have room for an Admiral... I don't know wether that's good or bad...

Pretty sure I'd be happy to to play against 4 naked ISDs with my 3 ship, full squadron list. Easy win.

Possibly but you are likely using Rhymer so it would work in your favor. Careful though, if they maneuver like a Space whale you may get cornered or penned in.

How so? Due to the sluggish profile of victories, they can very easily deny a flank in the long-term. And as I've said multiple times: I'll put my upgraded Vic-1 against two nearly-naked impstars any day.

I can see that as well. 7 points may not seem like a lot but it can be huge when it comes down to it. Hmmmm at 400 points I can fit 3 VSD's (1 or 2's) and 2 GSD 1's so yea compared to that I am not sure how good 3 ISD's will be.

Though that list has no upgrades but Skreed. I think I would use the VSD 1's so I can add upgrades to the GSD's.

I've tried one of those 3VSD/2GSD fleets. They're pretty stripped down--ACMs on both GSD Is, plus one Demolisher title leaves room for 3 VSD 1s, Motti/Screed, and 21/19 left over for VSD upgrades and/or your bid. You don't have much margin for error when you are engaged, but 3 VSD front arcs can deny an incredible amount of space on the board. Run maneuver commands for the first two or three turns and recklessly bull-rush at speed 2, and ACMs are almost viable on the VSD (expanded launchers maybe, too, though the price is a little high for my tastes; either way, odds are someone's forced into close range, either by the Gladiators or one of the other Victories pushing forwards). If your objective cuts the board size down (minefields, fleet ambush) or forces both sides into one spot (contested outpost), even better.

Plus the look on your opponent's face when you start is priceless...

Yet, my squadrons can easily kill 2-3 ships alone in a 6-turn game...especially if SupPos or precision strike gets picked, and this type of list has no answers to that. 5 50/50 rolls and 3 black dice is going to shred people who can't engage them.

Furthermore, if I'm comfortable tangoing with 2 impstars, 2 Vic's will not even remotely phase me. Plus, I'll have a raider with a ton of toys to combo with my demolisher to delete a flank.

so we can all agree FFG needs to hurry the hell up with the spoilers

I actually disagree. Look, were all going to buy it. So I'd love to open it up and be completely surprised. Granted I could in theory ignore any spoilers, but cmon here who are we kidding?

... 92 for the Cheap Version... You could take 4 in a 400pt list and still have room for an Admiral... I don't know wether that's good or bad...

Pretty sure I'd be happy to to play against 4 naked ISDs with my 3 ship, full squadron list. Easy win.

Possibly but you are likely using Rhymer so it would work in your favor. Careful though, if they maneuver like a Space whale you may get cornered or penned in.

How so? Due to the sluggish profile of victories, they can very easily deny a flank in the long-term. And as I've said multiple times: I'll put my upgraded Vic-1 against two nearly-naked impstars any day.

I can see that as well. 7 points may not seem like a lot but it can be huge when it comes down to it. Hmmmm at 400 points I can fit 3 VSD's (1 or 2's) and 2 GSD 1's so yea compared to that I am not sure how good 3 ISD's will be.

Though that list has no upgrades but Skreed. I think I would use the VSD 1's so I can add upgrades to the GSD's.

I've tried one of those 3VSD/2GSD fleets. They're pretty stripped down--ACMs on both GSD Is, plus one Demolisher title leaves room for 3 VSD 1s, Motti/Screed, and 21/19 left over for VSD upgrades and/or your bid. You don't have much margin for error when you are engaged, but 3 VSD front arcs can deny an incredible amount of space on the board. Run maneuver commands for the first two or three turns and recklessly bull-rush at speed 2, and ACMs are almost viable on the VSD (expanded launchers maybe, too, though the price is a little high for my tastes; either way, odds are someone's forced into close range, either by the Gladiators or one of the other Victories pushing forwards). If your objective cuts the board size down (minefields, fleet ambush) or forces both sides into one spot (contested outpost), even better.

Plus the look on your opponent's face when you start is priceless...

Yet, my squadrons can easily kill 2-3 ships alone in a 6-turn game...especially if SupPos or precision strike gets picked, and this type of list has no answers to that. 5 50/50 rolls and 3 black dice is going to shred people who can't engage them.

Furthermore, if I'm comfortable tangoing with 2 impstars, 2 Vic's will not even remotely phase me. Plus, I'll have a raider with a ton of toys to combo with my demolisher to delete a flank.

These are all valid concerns. Superior Positions or Precision Strike would definitely pose problems, but the odds are high that you won't see either (as second player, which you'd probably be unless you really strip down your Vics, I wouldn't include either objective, and as first, any of the defense objectives look better than those, so it's hard to imagine a situation where you'd have to choose them, unless you like challenges). Lack of a fighter screen is a concern with any build that isn't built to move faster than bombers, and of course that problem is accentuated if Rhymer's involved (although my group doesn't usually play mirror matches).

The question was how that kind of five ship list (3VSDs/2Glads) would fare against a list with 3 ISDs. Without knowing point totals for the ISD, it's hard to know just how many bombers one can fit into a 3ISD list but assuming 92 per ISD, plus a commander at somewhere between 24-38 so far, you'd have somewhere between 86 and 100 points (assuming no upgrades to the ISDs, other than a commander). You can top out at Rhymer and 9 Bombers, depending on the commander you choose (assuming (1) you don't add any upgrades to your ISDs, beyond a commander, and (2) your fleet uses just wave 1 squadrons and not wave 2 squadrons, which look like they will cost more).

Whether those three ISDs + fighter wing are better than 3 Vics/2 Glads is the question. In theory, you would think that the bombers would give a decided advantage coupled with Rhymer's range, but there's a lot of variables to consider. To maximize them, you need squadron commands, so no repairs for the naked ISDs, and with their larger bases, I wonder how fast an ISD can go before it starts colliding with its fighter screen. Even naked Vics with Motti can take a pounding, and Vic Is + Glads + Screed can rack up damage, especially if ACMs are in play. In some ways, I think the higher speed of the ISDs will help the Vics, between that and bringing the enemy into the Vics firing arcs sooner, especially if the ISDs lose mobility at higher speeds.

It's not my preferred build, just commenting on an idea Lyraeus had mentioned in passing that I'd happened to try. I don't expect either list (3VSD/2Glads or 3ISDs) will be anything other than a novelty list, but it's fun to theorize (even with incomplete information).