TL;DR, but on this last page we are at last getting somewhere, at least to how I understand the Morality Crux (without Beta or Release! heh). You have opportunities to roleplay no matter how the dice fall.

Your friend will die if you don't save them! Roll dice.

Lots of light points? Yay, your friend lives and you did a Good Deed. Proceed to next roleplay encounter or episode.

Less light points? Oops... well, let's see if your friend will survive the partial fall. Tell us what you said? Proceed to next step in resolving roleplay for this encounter

No light points, lots of dark points? You now have a choice. Can you stand to watch your friend fall, like all of your other friends?

----- "I tried but I am not strong enough yet..." you tried to do a Good Deed, but your powers are not as strong as a Padawan. Proceed to next roleplay step in resolving this encounter. (Shame on GM for the life or death decision)

----- "I don't care what happens to me, I have to save my friend, she means more to me than my own life... and I would miss her so much if she was gone!" Bam! The dark side responds to your emotional wish! You save your friend by using powers beyond mortal control. Accept conflict, cause face it... you know it's not normal and you failed but could not accept your failure so you succeeded at any cost. Proceed to next roleplay encounter or episode (just watch out for the visions and bogeys).

Personally, if I'm a GM in this situation, it is very unlikely that a player is going to have to face a single die force roll to save a family member or party member. When they have 3? You betcha! I will put them where they are faced with challenging situations that do not have a straightforward resolution.

If I'm a player and I failed to roll the saving dice needed to save someone with the force and I am trying to be a good Jedi, I would fight to avoid the dark side even at harm to my friends. Will I face conflict mechanically? Nope, because I did what was required... I attempted to save them. Will I face conflict in my roleplay? Yes, very much so. Will my character feel remorse and anguish because I let someone die and was not strong enough to save them? Yes, absolutely. Will there be days where I am not strong and face conflict in both mechanics and roleplay? You betcha.

If someone is trying to avoid one form of conflict or another (because, let's face it, that's the issue at hand), there are consequences to pay. No matter how extreme the situation you make, there are going to be consequences. Just like in our modern world, people do not want to look at consequences, so it carries over into the roleplay. In the example above, saving your friend is difficult because you do not want to fail. The consequence of losing the friend is difficult. It is easy to justify our actions when we do not want to face the consequences of failure. Funny how we're totally ok with facing consequences of succeeding. Choosing to use dark side does not make it a good thing, it means you could not stand to face the consequences and accept the failure your action produced, so you choose a path that gave you power to make a difference in any circumstance. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The idiom is easy to remember for a reason.

And that is why my characters do not flip dark side points. Even if it costs a PC his life.

"You're seriously gonna let me go, dude?"

"Master Yoda counseled me to let go of everything I fear to lose. Unlike Anakin, I plan on actually doing that."

*Later*

"You're not gonna save yourself either?"

"My time to become one with the Force arrived. That is the way of it. The way of the Force. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

One must accept death...both one's own and that of others...if the dice come up wrong.

The difference between the Force and every other tool you might use to save someone is that you don't HAVE to accept death. You can always use the darkness to pull a 'and nobody's going to take Padme from me!' But you're supposed to, just as if you failed an athletics check instead of a Force roll.

Letting your own character die because you don't want to use any Dark side pips to fuel Force powers is weird in my eyes, but what you do with your own character is your business. Letting another player's character die for the same reason is very much not only your own business. It's not even roleplaying, it's just being a monumental douchebag. We're talking one point of strain and a single point of Conflict, for crying out loud. You can take a hit like that for the team or go home and play computer games while everyone else enjoys an evening of cooperative gaming.

Letting your own character die because you don't want to use any Dark side pips to fuel Force powers is weird in my eyes, but what you do with your own character is your business. Letting another player's character die for the same reason is very much not only your own business. It's not even roleplaying, it's just being a monumental douchebag. We're talking one point of strain and a single point of Conflict, for crying out loud. You can take a hit like that for the team or go home and play computer games while everyone else enjoys an evening of cooperative gaming.

I feel your philosophy is fundamentally flawed and not in tune with the Star Wars universe. It is better to NOT take a hit for the team and maintain the theme of what a Jedi is then to have everyone embracing their inner Anakin cause PLAYERS are a little too close to the Dark Side themselves. Just because it's what you would do doesn't mean it's what a jedi would do. Not one that was properly philosophizing, anyway.

So, no sir, I will not be taking a hit to save you. Not now, not ever. If you must learn a lesson the hard way from that, so be it.

Then you're not "using your judgement". You're just letting the dice judge for you, the player, while your character freely causes other people pain and suffering to adhere to some cold, compassionless ideal. Seems pretty Sithy, plus, as noted, it seems like poor player sportsmanship.

If you're constantly flipping dark pips then perhaps the dark side can get its hooks into you. But if you mostly walk a tight path and only occasionally have to flip dark pips, you are unlikely to get into trouble if you have to do it for a valid reason. Surely a Jedi *character* would understand that mundanes may not have the emotional distance to handle grief and loss, and that his failure to act only increases pain and suffering in the galaxy.

And again, isn't it rather arbitrary? If you wait a turn and try again, you might get all light pips. Clearly the action itself is not bound to a particular Force result. It's up to the Jedi character to judge the action and suffer the consequences of the momentary difficulties, not make others suffer the consequences of his inaction.

At the point that they accept the Morality mechanic and all that it entails...

This was interesting to me, and I think it is worth asking the question: What does the Morality mechanic entail?

Bringing this back to Move...

We've established that adding massive conflict for using Move to lift and drop someone isn't a deterrent in the case of Morality mechanic + conflict points.*

We've established that there are other things that can be done to replace conflict points (inquisitors!!!).

I assume the inquisitors aren't there so the player is forced to watch his PC die and reroll. The inquisitors are there to provide interesting failure opportunities. If the latter, again, no incentive to not use Move to lift/drop enemies (if anything, it creates incentive to do so because more opportunities for fun!). If the former, why punish a player for playing the game a particular way?**

*Exception: players who choose not to separate mechanics from narrative AND don't want their PC being a dark-side user - this WILL be a deterrent to them

**This assumes that there was no discussion prior saying "you can't use Move like this"

@Angelalex242: What about if someone is playing a force user, not a Jedi ? Is Krieger22's philosophy still flawed? Does what your PC, or what a PC should do, in that very same scenario, change at all?

Of course it does.

In fact, what a Jedi does in such a situation actually varies by era.

In Yoda's order, you let the guy die.

In Luke's new order, you save the guy. (Luke is a more compassionate guy and practices as he preaches)'

That is, Yoda will not flip a pip to save anybody. Luke will flip a pip (in extreme circumstances like this) because of his more compassionate outlook.

(That's why Yoda's a hermit and Luke has a wife and child.)

It also varies by game. A superhero won't hesitate to save his pal...unless there's civilians who need saving too, in which case those who can't defend themselves take precedence over the other PC who can.

Likewise, the Paladin saves his friend too...unless he has to kill a baby or something to do so.

Have you completely lost all sense of proportion? You compare using a Dark side pip and swallowing one point of conflict to killing babies? And as for talking about choosing between saving a friend and saving a civillian... the example we've been running with here is between saving a friend or letting him die because it makes you feel morally superior. Either you're trolling this thread or you're a stone cold sociopath, I can't really decide.

Oh and "Yoda wouldn't save him"? Where are you getting your information here? You are making some very strange deductions based on nothing but your own very, very strange view on good and evil.

I am telling you what I would do and indeed HAVE done. No character, not mine or anyone else's, is worth flipping a pip.

I think we've fed this troll long enough. Let's tuck ErikB in bed.

And yet by saying you cannot understand someone that would follow a path of Morality to a higher degree than you would, you take away the Morality mechanic as well. Just because you roll the dice and would not save your friend by using the dark side powers does not negate the opportunity and consequence of roleplaying. To suggest so seems to stem from a very Min/Max perspective on the world.

You are also assuming that because someone tried to save someone else using the force and failed (because if you do not generate the light side points, you are failing your check) that they are not following a path of morality by attempting to make the save, even when it might endanger them. Choosing to use your emotions (the same ones you feel when you read Troll Posts) to fuel the salvation "no matter what" is what forces you into the dark side. Consequences. You didn't like one consequence, you chose another. Just because someone chooses differently at that moment, does not mean they are not following the mechanic and roleplay opportunities of Morality, even if that is your viewpoint on the encounter.

Now if they never take the roleplay into account and just say "oops... sorry, bud, the force was not with me" and walks away, feel free to namecall. If that is not the intention of the player and they are bound so tightly by Morality that this would be equivalent to a "sin" in our modern vernacular and they are going to feel the emotion of loss and tragedy in their roleplaying, then please be careful the words you use. It is a valid and difficult way to play.

The Yoda Question is a difficult one. Personally, I don't think he would fail such a roll. Whether he would use the dark side to save someone though... I would be hard pressed to think he would. I'm not saying he wouldn't, but I do not see him pursuing that avenue. Of course, he would probably get multiple attempts before someone could fall far enough for fatal damage, so it may be a moot point. IMHO when looking at how Yoda would resolve a situation, I tend to try to think of the most difficult way for it to be resolved and go with that. Saving with the force would be easy. Jumping down himself and catching them would be very difficult. I think he would jump off after them. So maybe we have been looking at only two presented options when we should have looked for more options. Shame on us.

As for dark pips as using the dark side... everything I have read points exactly to that. It's not just conflict. It's not just a simple one time issue. Once you begin to use it, it becomes easier to justify it in the future. Yes, it will be minor the first time and there may be times you should let your emotions get the best of you. But you are still allowing your emotions to rule you because you do not want to face the consequences presented. In time it will eat at your conscience and will be more and more of a temptation.

For a different take (non Star Wars) on this type of issue and how consequences go hand in hand with choices, I really like how L. E. Modesitt, Jr. dealt with a vast scope of this in the Saga of Recluce books. Perhaps there is a good space in Star Wars for some Gray Jedi (and heck, with my Username, I should be leading the charge, right?). Doing practical things and using any power that comes their way to do the best good they see fit in the Galaxy. I don't know of a temple that espouses this or a way of teaching, but there may be a space for it. There are certainly enough people that feel it is the best way to play.

Indeed, actually wasn't qui-gon of that disposition? Following the spirit of the letter rather then the orders word? Or is grey even broader then that?

Though, I don't see there being any schools of it, I could feel there might be other colonies out there, established by a previous member of the lost 20. The universe is justifiably large enough for something like that to exist and is also a pausable reason for a Jedi to survive the purge, in that they were never council Jedi to begin with, though when empire caught with it, the campaign starts.

Might actually make a character with that concept, a person who sees himself as a true Jedi, sans lightsaber (simbol of Republic, actually thinking of a marital artist to cultivate a visual difference.), only to find that the republic has changed drastically in the last x years, thus embarking on a quest.

I see both points in this convo. Conflict has the exact effect greyfax mentioned, it's minor but with my character twisting the thoughts of npc through influence, I roleplay an increasing lack of empathy. Somewhat apporitate considering he's not a Jedi, and the only party Jedi absolutely refuses to train due to the dark artifact in his pocession. Thus I am on track to a very slow fall to darkside.

Ahem. I am not ErikB and have never heard of the guy.

I am someone else.

Though it's clear my views do not reflect the majority, they are and remain my views.

And anyway, Grayfax is stating my point of view more eloquently then I am.

Besides, from my point of view, it is nobler to hold to a minority point of view then give into the peer pressure you folks endlessly try to inflict on me. Such tactics didn't work on me in high school.

They sure won't work on me at 35 years old.

Besides, from my point of view, it is nobler to hold to a minority point of view then give into the peer pressure you folks endlessly try to inflict on me. Such tactics didn't work on me in high school.

They sure won't work on me at 35 years old.

The number of people saying something doesn't change the validity of what is being said, but that goes both ways. It isn't noble to hold a position for the sole reason that you are the only person who has it.

Quite true.

I am offering a different point of view, at the least.

I think my detractors would find themselves playing a game with a very different feel if they actually tried doing it my way.

They may even have fun doing it that way. I can't be the only one who does.

Quite true.

I am offering a different point of view, at the least.

I think my detractors would find themselves playing a game with a very different feel if they actually tried doing it my way.

They may even have fun doing it that way. I can't be the only one who does.

how much of that is the 500 XP jedi you use, though, compared to your self-limiting, righteous choices?

I think Angelalex's RP choice is, at the very least, consistent. And it's also something that the GM completely supports. As long as the group has fun with that style of play, I won't fault them for it!

I mean yeah, flipping a dark side point isn't the same as killing a baby, but I don't think that was exactly the point

At any rate, I think I've come into a better understanding of the Morality mechanic AND the Move power from this discussion. So it was good for me

Quite true.

I am offering a different point of view, at the least.

I think my detractors would find themselves playing a game with a very different feel if they actually tried doing it my way.

They may even have fun doing it that way. I can't be the only one who does.

how much of that is the 500 XP jedi you use, though, compared to your self-limiting, righteous choices?

Couldn't tell you. Maybe they go hand in hand. Maybe they don't. Only you can decide what's fun for you. I can only tell you what works for me. It may be odd, but it does work for me.

Quite true.

I am offering a different point of view, at the least.

I think my detractors would find themselves playing a game with a very different feel if they actually tried doing it my way.

They may even have fun doing it that way. I can't be the only one who does.

how much of that is the 500 XP jedi you use, though, compared to your self-limiting, righteous choices?

Couldn't tell you. Maybe they go hand in hand. Maybe they don't. Only you can decide what's fun for you. I can only tell you what works for me. It may be odd, but it does work for me.

Then I'll just say that it plays havoc with game balance. Force users spend a lot of XP for unreliable abilities, when anyone could focus on more reliable skill based abilities and equipment.

Ahem. I am not ErikB and have never heard of the guy.

I am someone else.

Though it's clear my views do not reflect the majority, they are and remain my views.

And anyway, Grayfax is stating my point of view more eloquently then I am.

Besides, from my point of view, it is nobler to hold to a minority point of view then give into the peer pressure you folks endlessly try to inflict on me. Such tactics didn't work on me in high school.

They sure won't work on me at 35 years old.

I am actually conflicted on this, but have the luxury of being the GM, so I don't have to decide how strictly a single character of mine would interpret the Jedi Code and how the force would be used. I can be the pure white Jedi, and the murky grey one. I can be the dismissive Mandalorian and the awestruck teenager that follows you for a week during that long long delay getting the ship repaired.

I know I could play it a lot of ways, I just would need a strong background in bringing a Force user to the table as a player. Character Motivation is generally going to be more of an influence on me as a player than the dice ever would. If anything, I am overly descriptive in my playing and would draw out the inner conflict too much in dealing with light/dark side quandaries. One of these days I actually hope to get to play one... and face the consequences of my awesomely incredible dice rolling, along with the dismal dark days of my dice despair... cause I am streaky both ways (and woe to the party I adventure with... but they already know that).

Thank you for saying I am stating anything eloquently. I am actually glad I had the chance to examine how I felt about the mechanic and really deal with it before I had to present it to a player. They will regret it, because I know I am going to push them on it. Welcome to middle age, though some of us will still consider you in the youngling category... well maybe that's a stretch... but I've still got more than a decade on you... you whippersnapper...

I've ordered my copy of the core but chances are I'll never get to play a Jedi, nor even GM a game with a full Jedi party as has been my wish for many, many years, for 2 reasons:

1. I'm the only one who GM's within my group as no-one else can be arsed to do the job. It's been like that for 20 years.

2. I have only 2 other players and one of them isn't interested in Jedi. It's the one aspect of Star Wars he would happily do without (!?), and I'm not the kind of person to wander down to a game store and RP with total strangers. Not my thing.

I envy many of you that WILL get to play (as both GM's and Players), but I have to say that, as long as the GM and players are ok with it , anyone is entitled to play their character how ever they wish. No one else has any right to tell them otherwise.

Now I hope you all have some great sessions ahead and that you all come back and tell us about them, so I can live this game through your stories...