So remember 86 Double Phantom? Why not fly a version with Soontir instead of Echo? IMO Soontir is now better than Echo for this type of list, you won't autolose against a turret like 86 double Phantom did.

Buzzsaw Whisper/Rebel Captive Whisper & 35 point Stealth Device Soontir. That's it

I tried this out with Mauler Mithel in it too and all he did was give my opponent an easy ~20 points. The game was untimed but what ended up happening was that Soontir was left up against a 50 point Patrol Leader Deci and had it been timed I would have lost because Mauler fed my opponent 20 points in addition to the 44 point Phantom, but Had I not had Mauler I would have won with my opponent killing 44 points of Phantom and me killing a 50 point Patrol Leader.

This seems reasonably effective as long as you don't face Gunner deci Vader or a stressbot.

Why not Dark Curse + Stealth if you're worried about easy MOV points? Still leaves a decent bid.

You could run a Tie Advance + the title and AccC for 21 points. This is a much tougher ship and is very consistent.

Mauler likely took 2 or 3 attacks away from the Phantom/Interceptor, didn't he? And maybe even took a shield off the decimator? So maybe it would still be better to have him.

Mauler likely took 2 or 3 attacks away from the Phantom/Interceptor, didn't he? And maybe even took a shield off the decimator? So maybe it would still be better to have him.

This.

Before the Phantom change I ran Echo, Whisper, and Night Beast at a Store Champs. Worked extremely well! I went up against BBBBZ in that tournament and that particular round I just flew night beast off in a corner. Night beast didn't engage at all in that match, but in many other matches he proved a very effective blocker and setup the glass cannon list to do its thing. With such good options for imperials below 20 points, there's really no reason to not take some additional help and make your list even better.

yeah, this is... uhh kind of silly. Plz think about your own counter arguments before posting.

If you're going soontir the tie advanced is a great option. A good buddy of mine took 12th at the Milwaukee regional with that build. You're correct that a tie fighter can be kind of a throw away there. In the double phantom build night beast or dark curse are the way to go. Keep them away from the fight if you're opponent wants to go for a tie fighter and ignore your phantoms its easily to your advantage.

So remember 86 Double Phantom? Why not fly a version with Soontir instead of Echo? IMO Soontir is now better than Echo for this type of list, you won't autolose against a turret like 86 double Phantom did.

Buzzsaw Whisper/Rebel Captive Whisper & 35 point Stealth Device Soontir. That's it

I tried this out with Mauler Mithel in it too and all he did was give my opponent an easy ~20 points. The game was untimed but what ended up happening was that Soontir was left up against a 50 point Patrol Leader Deci and had it been timed I would have lost because Mauler fed my opponent 20 points in addition to the 44 point Phantom, but Had I not had Mauler I would have won with my opponent killing 44 points of Phantom and me killing a 50 point Patrol Leader.

This seems reasonably effective as long as you don't face Gunner deci Vader or a stressbot.

A local(ish) player took second place at a Store Championship I attended with that very list. He went undefeated until he was crushed in the finals by a Chewbacca list featuring (IIRC) a stressbot and Gunner+Predator on Chewie.

You've already identified the main problem: it's an okay list as long as you don't face a counter, but its counters include two of the most prominent metagame lists. I wouldn't run it competitively, for sure.

So I played the 79 point variant with gunner last night, 3 rounds.

First round was against Doomshuttle Lambda, Buzzsaw Echo, and 34 point Targeting Computer Soontir.

Winning the initiative bid, I was perplexed. See where Soontir was, but have his Whisper cloak before mine? Oh wait, he's flying Echo. I gave him initiative. I lost Soontir to a damage and a single Vader crit that direct hit. Got some damage in on his Echo and also one shot his soontir with broken gunner FCS Whisper Shenanigans. I eventually killed his half health Echo with my Whisper and his Lambda was eventually worn down. Win.

Second round was against Soontir Deci, and this one had rebel captive. I got out of position and half damaged soontir. By the time I had gotten the deci down to 7~ health I had lost Soontir. Loss. I could have flown better and just bit the bullet and killed off the Deci earlier by not PtL'ing Soontir.

3rd round was against Xizor, 2 Z's, and Kavil with Autoblaster turret and unhinged Astro and predator. In one turn I K turned Whisper behind everything, and 4 straighted Soontir near Whisper. I was range one of Kavil and boosted. Then I went to barrel roll and I couldn't because Whisper was blocking me. I lost Soontir to one 3 dice Kavil Autoblaster shot. Loss. I had pretty much won this game but then that happened lol.

It's competitive IMO. It probably would get more competitive as the number of tournament rounds increased, so that way if you faced a counter list or two it wouldn't be as catastrophic as losing 1 out of your 3 matches.

It's competitive IMO. It probably would get more competitive as the number of tournament rounds increased, so that way if you faced a counter list or two it wouldn't be as catastrophic as losing 1 out of your 3 matches.

So you went 1-2 in casual play, with two of the opponents running "meh" lists, and your conclusion is that it would do better in a competitive setting?

It's competitive IMO. It probably would get more competitive as the number of tournament rounds increased, so that way if you faced a counter list or two it wouldn't be as catastrophic as losing 1 out of your 3 matches.

So you went 1-2 in casual play, with two of the opponents running "meh" lists, and your conclusion is that it would do better in a competitive setting?

If you face a Deci Vader in a 3 round tournament you autolose and that's 1/3rd of your games. If you're playing in some all day event with more rounds chances are that you're not going to face a list you autolose to in 3rd of your games.

I've played in a store championship before with 45~ players. Most of my early matches were against bad players. Regionals or nationals might have everyone a top caliber player, but just because there are more people doesn't necessarily mean that everyone present is good.

The thought of leaving that many points on the table just to get initiative (or give it away) is insanity to me. That is an entire ship with upgrades. Also, your entire list is 7 HP! 7! Way too few with this many turrets lurking about.

The thought of leaving that many points on the table just to get initiative (or give it away) is insanity to me. That is an entire ship with upgrades. Also, your entire list is 7 HP! 7! Way too few with this many turrets lurking about.

It's nice to have initiative, but you could get initiative 100% of the time pretty much if you went to 96 points. I suppose the title was misleading as that's not the primary reason for running a mere 79 points.

It's mostly to deny my opponent MoV so that when I lose either the Phantom or Soontir and it ends up being a 1v1 situation I won't be boned having lost 50-60 points instead of just 35 or 44.

i dont understand how you convince yourself of this.

also dont you lose all your points if your opponent tables you?

The goal with this kind of list is to kill with a thousand cuts, only leaving yourself with a shot if the opponent can't have one. Yes you still lose 100 points if they table you, but (unless you come up against decivader) with good flying you should be able to at least run the clock out.

i dont understand how you convince yourself of this.

also dont you lose all your points if your opponent tables you?

2.) Yes, your opponent gets a full 100 if you get tabled. However, if you lose Soontir and you have Whisper on the board you've only lost 35 points and the remaining 65/56 is point fortressed in your remaining ship. You could carry that to an extreme and only fly 2 TIE Fighters, with the last surviving one being worth 88 points lol. Obviously that wouldn't be effective but you get what I'm saying.

Played against this list last night; I had xizor, Kavil, and two black Sun soldiers. I tabled him in about 30 minutes; his soontir fluffed a boost, couldnt barrel roll and ended up at range one autoblaster turret Kavil; three regular hits later, soontir was pulled and I lost a black Sun and xizor as I tracked down and killed whisper.

With that many points left over it makes no sense to not fill it. A naked shuttle, a bomber with either proxy or seismic with extra munitions, a TIE advanced with AC. None of these are bad options. Any damage you do with them is a bonus and every shot against them is a shot not against one of your other dudes.

If you are running a two-ship list, in 75 minute rounds, and counting on the game going to time??? This is not 'intentional slow play' how?

If you are running a two-ship list, in 75 minute rounds, and counting on the game going to time??? This is not 'intentional slow play' how?

You can't really go to time with this list unless you were to face a (slow) swarm player or something. You only have 2 ships, so unlike when you play a swarm your ships take about 10 seconds to move. Couple that with most of your opponents also playing nuance-less 2 ship lists and going to time is not happening lol.

Also, 75 minute rounds are not a thing around here at casual Thursday/Friday tournaments.

Played against this list last night; I had xizor, Kavil, and two black Sun soldiers. I tabled him in about 30 minutes; his soontir fluffed a boost, couldnt barrel roll and ended up at range one autoblaster turret Kavil; three regular hits later, soontir was pulled and I lost a black Sun and xizor as I tracked down and killed whisper.

Yes, this. Boneheaded mistake on my part.

i dont understand how you convince yourself of this.

also dont you lose all your points if your opponent tables you?

1.) Because 86 Double Phantom was good pre-Nerf, and Whisper Soontir is about as powerful as two named Phantoms. Not perhaps in pure firepower, but in endurance. Echo tended to die often in 86 double Phantom, and Soontir is longer lasting.

2.) Yes, your opponent gets a full 100 if you get tabled. However, if you lose Soontir and you have Whisper on the board you've only lost 35 points and the remaining 65/56 is point fortressed in your remaining ship. You could carry that to an extreme and only fly 2 TIE Fighters, with the last surviving one being worth 88 points lol. Obviously that wouldn't be effective but you get what I'm saying.

To Point #2, I would never EVER consider a 4 HP ship with a native 2 Agility a "point fortress". A point sturdy house maybe, but not a fortress.

I fail to see how this list is even moderately effective against the current phat turret spam and/or swarms.

I've been experimenting with something similar.

I have mauler Mithel with stealth & veteran instincts to pinch stress from rebel captive and have a 2 pt iniaitive bid.

Good in theory, yet to actually have a game with it against rebel captive though. Just rebels... Great damage dealer but dependant on dodging shots/green dice like most glass cannon lists, but all three ships are great to fly. Actually enjoy using whisper now that it isn't so broken.

If you are running a two-ship list, in 75 minute rounds, and counting on the game going to time??? This is not 'intentional slow play' how?

You can't really go to time with this list unless you were to face a (slow) swarm player or something. You only have 2 ships, so unlike when you play a swarm your ships take about 10 seconds to move. Couple that with most of your opponents also playing nuance-less 2 ship lists and going to time is not happening lol.

So to Clarify the point of the thread/list it is to deny MoV, a score that only applies when a game goes to time, and you are now saying that the game should never go to time because you are running this list?

If you are running a two-ship list, in 75 minute rounds, and counting on the game going to time??? This is not 'intentional slow play' how?

You can't really go to time with this list unless you were to face a (slow) swarm player or something. You only have 2 ships, so unlike when you play a swarm your ships take about 10 seconds to move. Couple that with most of your opponents also playing nuance-less 2 ship lists and going to time is not happening lol.

So to Clarify the point of the thread/list it is to deny MoV, a score that only applies when a game goes to time, and you are now saying that the game should never go to time because you are running this list?

If you are running a two-ship list, in 75 minute rounds, and counting on the game going to time??? This is not 'intentional slow play' how?

You can't really go to time with this list unless you were to face a (slow) swarm player or something. You only have 2 ships, so unlike when you play a swarm your ships take about 10 seconds to move. Couple that with most of your opponents also playing nuance-less 2 ship lists and going to time is not happening lol.

So to Clarify the point of the thread/list it is to deny MoV, a score that only applies when a game goes to time, and you are now saying that the game should never go to time because you are running this list?

Good point. I mean occasionally it goes to time, it it doesn't seem to go to time enough to warrant the 21 point initiative bid.

There are other benefits to denying MoV too, like if you sweep an opponent your 20 point TIE Fighter that would have inevitably died wouldn't count against you. You can also kill something and know that you're up on MoV and force your opponent to come after you.

After playing this list a few times more, I think I would be better off with the TIE Fighter still in it just repeatedly hard 1 turning in a corner or whatever. Or an Avenger Squadron with Autothrusters always evading and doing the same thing.

I found that I have a lot of trouble with Rebel Captive Decis. I can not PtL Soontir and use him to attack first and take the stress for Whisper but it's a tad bit difficult to get both ships pointed at the Deci. If I had a VI Mauler there I could utilize him in the game to shunt Rebel Captive, and when facing other lists where I might need a 21 point hole in lists I could just run him away from everything or use him as bait. Can't outrun a dumb fattie though.

So yeah, I think including another ship would be better, as you have the option of playing it as both a 3 ship list and the 79 point variant if you play keep away with the TIE Fighter.