A: Let me tell you for the hundredth time about something I don't like.

B: I'm tired of hearing about it.

A: You complain too much.

A: Let me tell you for the hundredth time about something I don't like.

B: I'm tired of hearing about it.

A: You complain too much.

I'm tired of hearing about this, so i'm going to go into a thread where said tired subject is obvious, read everything, then tell everyone about how tired i am of this.

Actually, this thread is about being tired of it and you came here.

I must have really been away from the game for a long time. What is a 'fat turret' or a fat any thing for that matter?

Well, this is the first flame thread I've seen here in my nascent X-wing noobhood, and let me tell you, it's a doozy, so thanks to everyone involved!

But just for comparison's sake, let's consider any other thread about any other multiplayer game - tapletop, rpg or cpu - and see what we sees. Ah yes, it's exactly the same dynamic! One section decries a function of the game as imbalanced (rightly or wrongly), while another defends that function as being perfectly fine. Both sections have vested interests in the outcome. This degenerates into war, where the complaints of the first section are accused of being whiney, repetitive and negative.

It makes no matter, of course, because the argument boils down to the contents of that there bracket up there - 'rightly or wrongly'. So. Are we correct in stating that PWTs are imbalanced within the game? I think the evidence is clearly in favour of this conclusion, given their consistent showing across competitive play, and the incredibly detailed data we have for this level of play, thanks to the work of Bonafide X-wing Dudes™. Can this OP function be countered? Most assuredly, and it often is, but then that counter element will also inevitably run into trouble against other non-PWT lists due to its over-specialisation. Statistically, then, there seems to be a self-imposed limit on how much these powerful lists will be countered (i.e. the element that counters them is in itself weak to other lists, which the original OP lists are not. Think of it like this: it's like having 'air' beat both 'earth' and 'fire', while only being vulnerable to 'water').

So we are unlikely to see a drop in their current dominance, unless something is done about it. Whether that something is educational (as with ficklegreendice's recent topic), rule tweaking (e.g. MoV overhaul) or nerfy, well, that's the question, isn't it?

And then on top of that you have the qualitative change that PWTs bring to the game. They seem to 'flatten' x-wing out to a depressing degree, and in the twenty or so games I've played (I know, je suis noobling), there is such a difference in the experience of playing a dogfighting game with and without a fat PWT on the table, no matter whether its mine or my opponents. It's a real shame, tbh.

Popularity is not a function of just performance. It does well because a large proportion of skilled players field them at tournaments. There are too many other variables to logically conclude, "it wins a lot of tournaments, so it must be over powered".

[Accidental double post.]

Because you have the power to create change in this game?

Clearly we do look at the change to phantom movement.

Look at autothrusters.

Look at the freaking tie advanced.

We can effect change and that's why your so eager to have us shut up.

I yelled at my TV for my favorite team to win, and they did. Therefore, it was because of me.

False equivalency fallacy right there.

If it was one occasion where the continuity had an effect you may have a point but we have multiple data points where forum members have suggested upgrades such as bombs on y-wings or the turret upgrade and its turned up later in a different way but accomplishing the same basic improvement.

The change to phantoms was clearly an attempt to open the meta but it failed, sooner or later PWT will get reworked, it's too contentious an issue to leave unaddressed forever.

No, on many occasions I yelled at my team through the tv to win, and they did. I have the power to affect the outcome.

Popularity is not a function of just performance. It does well because a large proportion of skilled players field them at tournaments. There are too many other variables to logically conclude, "it wins a lot of tournaments, so it must be over powered".

We might as well just not talk about the game, then. You seem disinterested in discussion.

Turrets are probably popular because they have lower variance than ships that rely more on unmodified green dice for protection and the maneuvering is a lot easier in a long tournament. I do not think the easy access to mitigation, maneuvering, and strong attacks makes for interesting gameplay. Fat turrets basically force non-turret lists to have a metric ton of firepower in order to win which rather limits list building.

Fair opinion from one point of view. But for the love of the Force, do we have read it every day? (Not necessarily from you?)

Limiting to a degree, perhaps. Then again, there are always limits to good list building. I can't ever take a poor performing list I like to a tournament if I want to do well. I get it, Fat Turrets a little more constraining, but not nearly as much as some go on and on and on about.

It's really not that hard to fly against and win. They just don't want to accept that Fat Turrets are beatable--that it's not overpowered--because they simply don't like them by design. I'm sorry. They're here and are going to stay. Better to learn to fly against them than to live in denial that FFG would ever let this happen, that FFG if you only complain loud enough, long enough, they will take you and your brilliant ideas seriously. (You in this case is general, not you, Panzeh.)

It's a false analogy Z0m4d, stop using it! It's ... y'know... not pretty?

I agree that equating popularity and performance would be a fallacy (like, e.g., a false analogy ) but I don't think I'm doing that. Here's the argument as to why you're incorrect:

1. A list, no matter how popular, is still beaten by an opponent's more powerful one

2. Repeated tournaments show us the power of adaptive preferences at work

3. We have extremely good data to record these preferences over time

4. We can be sure that popular lists wouldn't stay popular if they regularly failed to do well

C. We can be fairly certain that PWT lists are both popular AND powerful.

It's a false analogy Z0m4d, stop using it! It's ... y'know... not pretty?

The analogy is true because two coincidental facts aren't necessarily correlated, much less causal. The gall to think FFG designers are mining the forums for ideas, or that any good ideas from here aren't also independently thought by others on the design team. Arrogant.

Arrogant? You're being hostile for no good reason. Why not be charitable to your opponent's argument, rather than seeking to score cheap shots?

Your response to my argument looks like it's either 1) a list's popularity is not causally related to the success of people who run it in competitive play. That would leave pure preference as the sole determining criterion as to why people choose certain lists. this isn't credible, so I assume you didn't mean this.

2) Lists do make a difference, but so does player skill. To which I would completely agree! - but this would all wash out in the data! Statistically, great players who take great lists would do better than great players who took weaker lists... and we're back to the solid data showing the dominance of PWT, and also back to my conclusion.

I don't think, therefore, that your counterargument is credible. Back to you.

How am I supposed to predict where Super Dash will end up? Even if I have higher PS whatever boost/barrelroll/dial he chooses is equally good because he has a turret.

Asteroids essentially don't phase him, and my opponent has brought 3 debris fields.

He pushed the limit last turn, and he did a 1 green bank. Now he has the option of boosting and/or barrel rolling or doing neither.

I'm flying 5 TIE Fighters, lost the other two killing the escort, the highest PS of which is 1. What do I do? I'm winning on MoV right now but the game timer is no where close to ending.

This is one of the problems with turrets. They don't have to face you to shoot at you, so their maneuvers do not matter. They could be going 4 straight and boosting, or 1 hard (because hey that's not broken let's give an HLC turret a better dial than a fire spray) and not boosting. Often times my opponent will maneuver into a horrible position and then luck out and have a boost barely thread the needle and dodge a ton of arcs and win the game right there. That type of **** didn't happen when the meta was Swarm vs. BBXX.

Limiting to a degree, perhaps. Then again, there are always limits to good list building.

Yup. You can't take more than 100 points, for a start!

How am I supposed to predict where Super Dash will end up? Even if I have higher PS whatever boost/barrelroll/dial he chooses is equally good because he has a turret.

Asteroids essentially don't phase him, and my opponent has brought 3 debris fields.

He pushed the limit last turn, and he did a 1 green bank. Now he has the option of boosting and/or barrel rolling or doing neither.

I'm flying 5 TIE Fighters, lost the other two killing the escort, the highest PS of which is 1. What do I do? I'm winning on MoV right now but the game timer is no where close to ending.

This is one of the problems with turrets. They don't have to face you to shoot at you, so their maneuvers do not matter. They could be going 4 straight and boosting, or 1 hard (because hey that's not broken let's give an HLC turret a better dial than a fire spray) and not boosting. Often times my opponent will maneuver into a horrible position and then luck out and have a boost barely thread the needle and dodge a ton of arcs and win the game right there. That type of **** didn't happen when the meta was Swarm vs. BBXX.

I don't understand your issues with Super Dash. Hes incredibly predictable and easy to block. Some ships might not be fast enough to be able to (B-wings for example), but TIE Fighters should easily be able to catch up.

If you find your self chasing a turret, STOP. You're going to lose the match that way, try to cut him off at the pass.

I find it sad there have been several topics on the forums about list building and strategies against turrets, but it falls on deaf ears on those select few that incessantly complain about them.

You guys are worse than people that complain about being overweight but never exercise/diet to correct it.

How am I supposed to predict where Super Dash will end up? Even if I have higher PS whatever boost/barrelroll/dial he chooses is equally good because he has a turret.

Asteroids essentially don't phase him, and my opponent has brought 3 debris fields.

He pushed the limit last turn, and he did a 1 green bank. Now he has the option of boosting and/or barrel rolling or doing neither.

I'm flying 5 TIE Fighters, lost the other two killing the escort, the highest PS of which is 1. What do I do? I'm winning on MoV right now but the game timer is no where close to ending.

This is one of the problems with turrets. They don't have to face you to shoot at you, so their maneuvers do not matter. They could be going 4 straight and boosting, or 1 hard (because hey that's not broken let's give an HLC turret a better dial than a fire spray) and not boosting. Often times my opponent will maneuver into a horrible position and then luck out and have a boost barely thread the needle and dodge a ton of arcs and win the game right there. That type of **** didn't happen when the meta was Swarm vs. BBXX.

I don't understand your issues with Super Dash. Hes incredibly predictable and easy to block. Some ships might not be fast enough to be able to (B-wings for example), but TIE Fighters should easily be able to catch up.

If you find your self chasing a turret, STOP. You're going to lose the match that way, try to cut him off at the pass.

I find it sad there have been several topics on the forums about list building and strategies against turrets, but it falls on deaf ears on those select few that incessantly complain about them.

You guys are worse than people that complain about being overweight but never exercise/diet to correct it.

I don't think Dash is too bad- he has a lot less mitigation than the true fatties and unlike the others he doesn't get better at range 1. I think chasing the donut hole though is a fool's errant because he is better at arc dodging up close- just eat the HLCs and kill him before he kills you. Then again, since I have to build against the true fatties, I end up being able to kill Dash fast- he's probably not packing c-3p0.

I also have less of an issue with the decimator- there's a lot more counterplay for it as well and honestly even low quality shots will do damage to it, especially if you have a way to put stress on it.

You guys are worse than people that complain about being overweight but never exercise/diet to correct it.

...and now I feel sad that I just placed a Dominos Pizza order.

You guys are worse than people that complain about being overweight but never exercise/diet to correct it.

...and now I feel sad that I just placed a Dominos Pizza order.

I just had pizza for breakfast. The struggle is real.

I find it sad there have been several topics on the forums about list building and strategies against turrets, but it falls on deaf ears on those select few that incessantly complain about them.You guys are worse than people that complain about being overweight but never exercise/diet to correct it.

http://www.ericberne.com/games-people-play/why-dont-you-yes-but/

How am I supposed to predict where Super Dash will end up? Even if I have higher PS whatever boost/barrelroll/dial he chooses is equally good because he has a turret.Asteroids essentially don't phase him, and my opponent has brought 3 debris fields.He pushed the limit last turn, and he did a 1 green bank. Now he has the option of boosting and/or barrel rolling or doing neither.I'm flying 5 TIE Fighters, lost the other two killing the escort, the highest PS of which is 1. What do I do? I'm winning on MoV right now but the game timer is no where close to ending.This is one of the problems with turrets. They don't have to face you to shoot at you, so their maneuvers do not matter. They could be going 4 straight and boosting, or 1 hard (because hey that's not broken let's give an HLC turret a better dial than a fire spray) and not boosting. Often times my opponent will maneuver into a horrible position and then luck out and have a boost barely thread the needle and dodge a ton of arcs and win the game right there. That type of **** didn't happen when the meta was Swarm vs. BBXX.

I don't understand your issues with Super Dash. Hes incredibly predictable and easy to block. Some ships might not be fast enough to be able to (B-wings for example), but TIE Fighters should easily be able to catch up.If you find your self chasing a turret, STOP. You're going to lose the match that way, try to cut him off at the pass.I find it sad there have been several topics on the forums about list building and strategies against turrets, but it falls on deaf ears on those select few that incessantly complain about them.You guys are worse than people that complain about being overweight but never exercise/diet to correct it.

He's not incredibly predictable with large ship barrel roll and boost. The reason I cannot block him is because he's been doing that for the last few turns.

Every time I see someone complain about how "Turrets are easy-mode and ruining the game" I wonder if they've actually played the big turrets themselves. It's not easy mode. With Autothrusters now you actually have to fly them to catch such stealthy ships. They go down super fast if caught in more than two or three arcs, even "Fat" YT-1300s so you have to fly them unexpectedly. They are very susceptible to being blocked. I concede the point that it's tough on MOV, but that's not what people complain about mostly - they whine about them being easy-mode point-and-shoot but don't have to worry about where you're going. This is emphatically NOT the case.

Next time you (royal "you) groan because you're being beaten by a large turret, step back and ask yourself why you're having a problem, and instead of going on the forums and creating the umpteenth thread about "turrets ugly blah blah blah whine" try to figure out how to beat it! It absolutely can be done, and if the turret is being flown by someone who thinks its easy mode, it can be done a lot easier than you might think.

They don't have to face you to shoot at you, so their maneuvers do not matter.

I'm not sure how many times this has to be said, if either some people can't understand it or choose to ignore it. (Others might not have seen it, but it's been repeated):

Maneuvering turrets matter. You don't want to get shot at. You want to maneuver out of arcs.

I think that's simple enough for most to understand.

Every time I see someone complain about how "Turrets are easy-mode and ruining the game" I wonder if they've actually played the big turrets themselves. It's not easy mode. With Autothrusters now you actually have to fly them to catch such stealthy ships. They go down super fast if caught in more than two or three arcs, even "Fat" YT-1300s so you have to fly them unexpectedly. They are very susceptible to being blocked. I concede the point that it's tough on MOV, but that's not what people complain about mostly - they whine about them being easy-mode point-and-shoot but don't have to worry about where you're going. This is emphatically NOT the case.

Next time you (royal "you) groan because you're being beaten by a large turret, step back and ask yourself why you're having a problem, and instead of going on the forums and creating the umpteenth thread about "turrets ugly blah blah blah whine" try to figure out how to beat it! It absolutely can be done, and if the turret is being flown by someone who thinks its easy mode, it can be done a lot easier than you might think.

A: Have you ever actually tried asparagus?

B: No, but I hate it.