I'm reporting you Stilgod.

Jacob

Typical. "His logical opinion and funny posts hurt my feelings. I'M TELLING!"

Both of you misunderstand. My feelings have nothing to do with it.

It's precisely the sort of thing I guess I should expect. Hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet, people are able and willing to say anything they want in any discussion, including attacking the person who makes a statement. If you can't treat others with respect, your post should be reported. If you don't see the problem with that post, you don't seem to understand fly casual.

Perhaps I should stop assuming that this sort of forum should be welcoming of all people and free of insult and disrespect. I don't believe I've said anything here that is false.

Jacob

Both of you misunderstand. My feelings have nothing to do with it.

....

...

including attacking the person who makes a statement. If you can't treat others with respect, your post should be reported. I

You feel attacked and disrespected, which is simultaneously hilarious and sad.

Hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet, people are able and willing to say anything they want in any discussion, including attacking the person who makes a statement.

I can assure you there is nothing I'd say on these forums I wouldn't say IRL, in fact I censor myself greatly since these are family-friendly forums. Ironically, this thread was started to mock those(such as myself) who feel that PWTs are currently unbalanced. Instead of crying about it, I made posts demonstrating my opinion in a logical manner, and I've still yet to hear any counter-argument to the "topic" at hand other than "My buddy beat my Chewie list that one time at band camp." I'll make it easy for you, fill in the blank: "PWTs are perfectly balanced and should remain exactly as they are because ________."

I'd just like to say that for the record, I enjoy flying Interceptors AND Fat Turrets, and I found Stilgod's GIFs pretty hilarious.

But then again, I'm a sucker for GIF humour.

Both of you misunderstand. My feelings have nothing to do with it.

....

...

including attacking the person who makes a statement. If you can't treat others with respect, your post should be reported. I

You feel attacked and disrespected, which is simultaneously hilarious and sad.

Hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet, people are able and willing to say anything they want in any discussion, including attacking the person who makes a statement.

I can assure you there is nothing I'd say on these forums I wouldn't say IRL, in fact I censor myself greatly since these are family-friendly forums. Ironically, this thread was started to mock those(such as myself) who feel that PWTs are currently unbalanced. Instead of crying about it, I made posts demonstrating my opinion in a logical manner, and I've still yet to hear any counter-argument to the "topic" at hand other than "My buddy beat my Chewie list that one time at band camp." I'll make it easy for you, fill in the blank: "PWTs are perfectly balanced and should remain exactly as they are because ________."

I'd like you to hear clearly, so please stop taking my words out of context and simply accept the following. My feelings are not hurt. I think your GIF is offensive, and it seems like it's on purpose. I feel strongly that this forum should be a place of respect for all people of all positions.

Look, I get that you, and others, feel that Turrets are overpowered. I don't. I'm asking for the same respect that you might desire: that your opinion and my opinion should be respected. To make fun of another person, to attack that person, to use GIFs to poke fun at others makes this place less welcoming, not more welcoming. The language people use matters, and the language your GIFs use does not fit with a Fly Casual attitude in game or on forum.

I get people like GIF humour, but I feel for those kids who are now infamous for their childhood eccentricities or mistakes. That particular kid in the GIF above is unfortunately being used to compare people who fly turrets in a derogatory way. If you had done something similar to what that child has, would you like to be immortalized in such a way on the interwebz? Should anyone be compared to that child? To each they're own in terms of humour, but I feel this forum isn't really the place for things like that.

Jacob

Look, I get that you, and others, feel that Turrets are overpowered. I don't.

...because _________.

Common, you're so close to actually expressing your incorrect opinion! Almost there! Use your wooords!**

**Allow me to remind you this is a troll thread, thus I am under no obligation refrain from making condescending comments

Feel free to look at my past posts. I'm not interested in reiterating. Not because I don't feel I can, but because I don't want to participate in this thread anymore. If it's a troll thread than I'd rather not subject myself to abuse.

Good day sir. I said good day!







(In all, I have a big grin on my face and I'm not offended or hurt, and I hope that nobody else is either. Stilgod, I'm sure you're a really great guy, and you and I could easily be friends. We have a difference of opinion over use of GIFs, but I can happily live and play beside you, so please don't take it personally).

Jacob

Jacob

re; you pay premium for turrets.

Let's assume this is the case.

Question; why are so many people handicapping themselves* at tournaments?

Including some very, VERY good players.

(*=By paying exactly that premium for fat turrets?)

...

(let it sink in)

Perhaps they are simply worth their points?

There seems to be a lot of dictionary failure in this thread. "Premium" does not mean "not worth it" or "overpriced." It means you've got to pay more for it. Whether or not something is overpriced or not has nothing to do with that term.

Turrets incur a larger point cost for that 360 degree arc. As a result, for the same points they have lower firepower and durability than they would were they forward-arc only ships. A TIE fighter with a 360 arc would not cost 12 points.

As a result, their statline efficiency is lower: assuming every ship gets a shot every round they'll die when faced with a horde of arced ships focusing fire on it. Their health is higher, but that sixty to eighty points of ship has only one attack, even if it is 360. In order to beat those arced ships they need to be tricksy, either by stacking even more points into damage mitigation or, ironically enough, by arc dodging.

That is the turret premium, and that is one of their main weaknesses: they die when overwhelmed. That's why turrets invest so heavily in damage mitigation, action economy and Engine Upgrade for dodging arcs. They'd be utterly annihilated without it. Before Wave 4 they weren't common at all. The setback of that investment in upgrades is that they get even more expensive.

Yeah, pile stress, ionize, or block a PWT fatty and it dies. If it were overpowered, or broken, or whatever, it would consistently pull out wins in those situations.

Jacob

Yeah, pile stress, ionize, or block a PWT fatty and it dies. If it were overpowered, or broken, or whatever, it would consistently pull out wins in those situations.

Jacob

Most ships will die when they're stressed, ionized, or blocked. I know you're heavily invested in your favorite list being the best, but think about it like this. Do you think everyone should be forced into an anti-turret meta to accomodate your desire to play Chewie and Leebo?

Yeah, pile stress, ionize, or block a PWT fatty and it dies. If it were overpowered, or broken, or whatever, it would consistently pull out wins in those situations.

Jacob

ANY ship can be screwed by control effects, but out of all ships, PWTs are by far the most resilient. Stress has little consequence as they do not rely on actions to stay alive or maintain firing arcs with boost/BR. They are also able to take many more green maneuvers in order to clear stress as they have little concern for managing arc. For Ion: It takes 2 ion tokens to ion them, and even so, they will still be able to return fire as long as they don't hit a rock or fly off the board. When a Non-PWT ship gets ionized, it will likely lose the opportunity to shoot. A chewy or a Han who takes a stress will still have at least 1 reroll mechanic and C3PO for damage mitigation, whereas an Int that gets stressed MUST choose a maneuver to clear that stress as without actions, they are purely relying on dice and 3 hull to keep them alive. Either way, 1 bad turn of being hit by CC will not end a full-health PWT, while it will usually spell the end for an arc-dodger.

Yeah, pile stress, ionize, or block a PWT fatty and it dies. If it were overpowered, or broken, or whatever, it would consistently pull out wins in those situations.

Jacob

Most ships will die when they're stressed, ionized, or blocked. I know you're heavily invested in your favorite list being the best, but think about it like this. Do you think everyone should be forced into an anti-turret meta to accomodate your desire to play Chewie and Leebo?

Control elements are good. They make the game more interesting and if we saw a lot more of them that'd be no bad thing.

The problem is when the turret counter is another turret.

Yeah, pile stress, ionize, or block a PWT fatty and it dies. If it were overpowered, or broken, or whatever, it would consistently pull out wins in those situations.

Jacob

Most ships will die when they're stressed, ionized, or blocked. I know you're heavily invested in your favorite list being the best, but think about it like this. Do you think everyone should be forced into an anti-turret meta to accomodate your desire to play Chewie and Leebo?

Control elements are good. They make the game more interesting and if we saw a lot more of them that'd be no bad thing.

The problem is when the turret counter is another turret.

I don't disagree with either of those statments at all. Turret vs turret games are a bit of a snoozefest, and IG-88 being a turret counter does make more entertaining games than watching a decimator shoot at Han then Han shooting back for an hour.

Maybe conner nets will help with this.

I'd say that some ships, like Interceptors, Agressors, and other high Agility ships are harder to ionize/stress. So while I agree that all ships will die if blocked/stressed/ionized = controlled in some way, I'd say that YTs and VTs are easier to control than other ships. Not all, but certainly the ships with turrets all seem to have low agility.

I'm not asking everyone to accept or even join my opinion, I just don't like it when inaccuracies and outright lies are perpetuated. I can see why some people might not enjoy this game in all its forms, but by the same token - should my enjoyment be taken away because you don't like one facet of the game?

The thing I don't understand is that people have a choice in this matter. I agree that you should be able to voice your concern, and that FFG can potentially listen, but realize that they're listening to thousands of different voices, all saying potentially different things. I don't envy them. Lots of people propose sweeping changes and denigrate the designers as having no clue, being lazy, or ineffectual. I don't think those things are helpful, and to perpetuate opinion as fact is having an effect on the forum. It's not awesome, I'm choosing to say something about it.

I like flying Chewie and Leebo. I shouldn't have to be ashamed of that.

Jacob

Yeah, pile stress, ionize, or block a PWT fatty and it dies. If it were overpowered, or broken, or whatever, it would consistently pull out wins in those situations.

Jacob

Yours, mine, or anyone else's opinion is just an opinion.

Factually, aren't lists with at least one PWT pulling way more wins than any other kind of ship at Regionals (if I counted well in the Regionals thread there are 41 winning lists with PWTs and 30 without)?

Wouldn't that hint that maybe PWTs are currently a stronger type of ship than any other?

I'd say that some ships, like Interceptors, Agressors, and other high Agility ships are harder to ionize/stress. So while I agree that all ships will die if blocked/stressed/ionized = controlled in some way, I'd say that YTs and VTs are easier to control than other ships. Not all, but certainly the ships with turrets all seem to have low agility.

I think you fail to understand how stress effects agile ships vs. PWTs If an agile ship is stressed, it MUST clear that stress by taking a green move. This reduces that ships options in maneuvers, making it more predictable and easier to block or keep in arc. Not only that, but if that ship happens to receives 2 stress tokens, it will go at least a round of being unable to take actions. Due to their low HP and lack of turret, these ships rely on actions to maintain firing arcs, arc dodge, and use actions. In other words, no action=no dodge, no shot, and no ship. It will not get to shoot back, and relies entirely on green dice to stay alive. If a PWT gets stressed or ioned=Still guaranteed shot, rerolls from gunner/predator/pilot abilities, and defensive abilities. A PWT does not rely on actions to survive. They can arc-dodge by simply flying past or through or around enemy ships and tend to have built-in offensive and defensive mechanics. Basically, they have a much larger margin of error and are far less effected by control.

Yeah, pile stress, ionize, or block a PWT fatty and it dies. If it were overpowered, or broken, or whatever, it would consistently pull out wins in those situations.

Jacob

Yours, mine, or anyone else's opinion is just an opinion.

Factually, aren't lists with at least one PWT pulling way more wins than any other kind of ship at Regionals (if I counted well in the Regionals thread there are 41 winning lists with PWTs and 30 without)?

Wouldn't that hint that maybe PWTs are currently a stronger type of ship than any other?

What that tells me is that a lot of people are playing them. How many Fat Turrets crash and burn at the bottom of the rankings?

Yeah, pile stress, ionize, or block a PWT fatty and it dies. If it were overpowered, or broken, or whatever, it would consistently pull out wins in those situations.

Jacob

Yours, mine, or anyone else's opinion is just an opinion.

Factually, aren't lists with at least one PWT pulling way more wins than any other kind of ship at Regionals (if I counted well in the Regionals thread there are 41 winning lists with PWTs and 30 without)?

Wouldn't that hint that maybe PWTs are currently a stronger type of ship than any other?

What that tells me is that a lot of people are playing them. How many Fat Turrets crash and burn at the bottom of the rankings?

They're being picked often because they give the best chance of winning with the smallest margin of error. Obviously, if everyone and their dog brings a PWT to a tournie, SOMEONE has to lose.

I'd say that some ships, like Interceptors, Agressors, and other high Agility ships are harder to ionize/stress. So while I agree that all ships will die if blocked/stressed/ionized = controlled in some way, I'd say that YTs and VTs are easier to control than other ships. Not all, but certainly the ships with turrets all seem to have low agility.

I think you fail to understand how stress effects agile ships vs. PWTs If an agile ship is stressed, it MUST clear that stress by taking a green move. This reduces that ships options in maneuvers, making it more predictable and easier to block or keep in arc. Not only that, but if that ship happens to receives 2 stress tokens, it will go at least a round of being unable to take actions. Due to their low HP and lack of turret, these ships rely on actions to maintain firing arcs, arc dodge, and use actions. In other words, no action=no dodge, no shot, and no ship. It will not get to shoot back, and relies entirely on green dice to stay alive. If a PWT gets stressed or ioned=Still guaranteed shot, rerolls from gunner/predator/pilot abilities, and defensive abilities. A PWT does not rely on actions to survive. They can arc-dodge by simply flying past or through or around enemy ships and tend to have built-in offensive and defensive mechanics. Basically, they have a much larger margin of error and are far less effected by control.

You're using the PWT word as synonymous with Fat Large Base Turret. Remember that the things that make those ships fat are the upgrades that get applied. So you end up paying 58 for that Dash, or 62 for the Han. That's a lot of money to dump into one ship.

I'd encourage you to try out, if you haven't already, a couple of these lists against a good player with a control list in their hands. It's not as easy as you keep suggesting it is.

About the tourney win thing - yeah, if lots of people take it, because it's strong, doesn't mean necessarily that it's overpowered or broken. Those aren't correlated facts. There are likely a variety of factors and reasons people take them. If strong players fly a strong list, they will succeed. I'm not saying that Fat Turreted ships aren't strong, I'm saying they're not broken or overpowered, they're not auto-win, and they're not easy-mode. That's my thoughts. I'm obviously not changing, and you're obviously not changing. I'm just advocating that everyone has the right to respectfully disagree, and respectfully discuss.

Jacob

Yeah, pile stress, ionize, or block a PWT fatty and it dies. If it were overpowered, or broken, or whatever, it would consistently pull out wins in those situations.

Jacob

Yours, mine, or anyone else's opinion is just an opinion.

Factually, aren't lists with at least one PWT pulling way more wins than any other kind of ship at Regionals (if I counted well in the Regionals thread there are 41 winning lists with PWTs and 30 without)?

Wouldn't that hint that maybe PWTs are currently a stronger type of ship than any other?

What that tells me is that a lot of people are playing them. How many Fat Turrets crash and burn at the bottom of the rankings?

Actually, in order for PWTs to win, good players have to play them too (unless you claim they're so good they allow bad players to win Regionals ? )

And why would good players (who presumably want to win) play them if not because they feel they are better than other types of lists ? And if 3 (out of how many?) ships end up being in more than half of the winning lists, then that is a problem in my book.

Also, do you honestly think turrets are not easier to fly that most (if not all) other kind of lists ? (just curious) If so, could you please give an example of a list that you feel is easier to fly (and win with) than a fat turret, like let's say RAC/Fel ?

They're being picked often because they give the best chance of winning with the smallest margin of error. Obviously, if everyone and their dog brings a PWT to a tournie, SOMEONE has to lose.

They're being picked often because people think that. Whether or not its true is only peripherally related: if they're at least balanced to the rest of the game (as opposed to old TIE advanced underpowered) and people think they're power pieces they'll take them and inflate their win numbers, which makes them look powerful. Vicious cycle. We had it with the TIE swarm and we had it with the TIE phantom.

PWTs win all the time because they're popular and there are a lot of them. They also get some artificial help in tournaments in the form of consistency (often more valuable than power in a tournament) and from the "point forts" that MoV makes them into.

And why would good players (who presumably want to win) play them if not because they feel they are better than other types of lists ?

Because they like playing them? Nobody's playing this game just to win.

That, and hull is more consistent than green dice, dice modification increases consistency and 360 arcs allow consistent damage. They minimise randomness.

Furthermore, back in the dark days of Wave 4 and 5 turrets were the most reliable phantom counter. As you almost had to use them (or another, more gimmicky and difficult phantom counter) back then a lot of people are very familiar with them.

re; you pay premium for turrets.
Let's assume this is the case.
Question; why are so many people handicapping themselves* at tournaments?
Including some very, VERY good players.(*=By paying exactly that premium for fat turrets?)
...
(let it sink in)
Perhaps they are simply worth their points?

They've been paying the premium because of the Phantom. Are you new to the game?

Why do you always have to be so aggressive? I don't think turrets are broken but you sound like a zealot. You share your highly subjective points but say you can't be bothered to point out the math behind it, because whatever. An insult with every comment. I guess you must be a very frustrated xwing player,and I am sorry if that is the case.

So come on. You are making a fool of yourself, and folks are laughing at your jests.

Fair enough, I can be aggressive sometimes. Willful ignorance is a pet peeve.

I won't stoop quite so low as to call you a fool, though. However, are you insinuating there's a little club where all the FFG posters get together in real life and laugh and make fun of other posters? Preposterous. Or that you're spending time communicating via private messaging about me? Get real.

I agree with stillgod's gif comparison.

Saying that turrets are easy mode or even goober ships doesn't say anything about the skill of the player using one, as better players will perform better with turret lists. Bad players playing easy mode lists tend to do better than if they were handed a normal list but they'll still fly horribly. Don't take our turret hatred personally, we're not saying that you have no skill, we're saying that you flying a list that takes little skill allows you to perform even better against an equally skilled opponent playing a non-Turretwing list.

A master carpenter given power tools is going to be able to perform his job better than someone equally skilled using traditional hand tools.

The reason why Turretwing lists end up losing in big tournaments is because:

1.) Everyone is flying them, so some of them have to end up losing.

2.) No skill players seeing experienced players almost auto winning every game with Phantom Deci or whatever and jumping on the bandwagon themselves.

3.) Luck. Not in dice rolls, but in list building. Since all of the nuance has been stripped from this game because of the two ship meta and its devolved into winning in the list building phase, if a turret player ends up facing Dual autothrusters IG's or the handful of other turret counters too many times he may just lose because of that. At large events there are always going to be a handful of players that go 5-0 or whatever and getting a bad matchup one too many times kills you.

A master carpenter given power tools is going to be able to perform his job better than someone equally skilled using traditional hand tools.

I'd say that a Master carpenter given power tools might be able to perform his job more efficiently, but not necessarily better.

I also don't think the comparison here is power tools vs hand tools. That's saying that there's an inherent value difference in the ships, that one is more powerful, or perhaps 'overpowered.'

I don't agree with that. I think the comparison might be a brand new, fully charged power drill vs a well used power drill. They both do the job, and in the hands of someone prepared to use them, they can be equal.

That's my thoughts though.

Jacob