You do realize that without turrets, PTL interceptors would be overly dominant? I don't know how many times I've been flying an xwing only to have turr or soontir hammer me, then slide out of the way. Seems a little too powerful, at least it would be if there were not ........turrets.

this is blatantly untrue. Interceptors have global counters (blocking and obstacles) which every ship in the game can exploit. Not only that, but given how well Soonts performs against turrets (turtle protocal + thrusters, he's actually a great ship to throw against PWTs) and not only are turrets as counters not needed, they don't even really work (apart from the decivader; that's just unfair).

hell, the fact that you constantly see soonts as cheri's wingman should make it abundantly clear that turrets only encourage soontir.

part of the appeal of two of the ships mentioned in the OP, mini-fell and R3-a2, god of stress, incarnate is that they are good against turrets (thrusters & control, respectively) but they just crubstomp poor soontir, who is an inevitable half of Cheri. A fully modded prot rocket will put a reliable one damage, at least, on even a super turtled soontir unless he rolls four 5/8s. A double stressed soonts, meanwhile, is just a PS 9 Alpha squadron.

of course, we'd all already know about these counters if we even bothered to read the OP

Also, once conner nets drop, we can add them to the list of anti-soontir tech.

what's true is that the X-wing is just a suboptimal ship

He's not ranting because he said he's not.

no no, I'm ranting because you say I am. That makes much more sense.

you're batting real low on the whole constructive post thing, zom. please at least give the barest hint of effort if you're going to stick around

You do realize that without turrets, PTL interceptors would be overly dominant? I don't know how many times I've been flying an xwing only to have turr or soontir hammer me, then slide out of the way. Seems a little too powerful, at least it would be if there were not ........turrets.

this is blatantly untrue. Interceptors have global counters (blocking and obstacles) which every ship in the game can exploit. Not only that, but given how well Soonts performs against turrets (turtle protocal + thrusters, he's actually a great ship to throw against PWTs) and not only are turrets as counters not needed, they don't even really work (apart from the decivader; that's just unfair).

hell, the fact that you constantly see soonts as cheri's wingman should make it abundantly clear that turrets only encourage soontir.

part of the appeal of two of the ships mentioned in the OP, mini-fell and R3-a2, god of stress, incarnate is that they are good against turrets (thrusters & control, respectively) but they just crubstomp poor soontir, who is an inevitable half of Cheri. A fully modded prot rocket will put a reliable one damage, at least, on even a super turtled soontir unless he rolls four 5/8s. A double stressed soonts, meanwhile, is just a PS 9 Alpha squadron.

of course, we'd all already know about these counters if we even bothered to read the OP

Also, once conner nets drop, we can add them to the list of anti-soontir tech.

what's true is that the X-wing is just a suboptimal ship

He's not ranting because he said he's not.

no no, I'm ranting because you say I am. That makes much more sense.

you're batting real low on the whole constructive post thing, zom. please at least give the barest hint of effort if you're going to stick around

He's not ranting because he said he's not.

no no, I'm ranting because you say I am. That makes much more sense.

I never said you're ranting.

Turrets don't need coping. You need coping. Constructive.

I don't hate turrets in general, just the fatties and the raw mitigation that scum will never get and that tends to lock out a lot of builds that don't have the super firepower to do it.

C-3P0 should not have been put in the game and why the hell does the YT get so much extra stuff for a name?

I had a game on vassal just now that I resigned after two rounds of shooting. I was against super dash and jan. Had two of my 4 ships one shotted before doing any damage to him. At that point I knew I had 0% chance of winning, and I do mean 0%.

Now I WAS flying a decimator...but a super skinny one, as I just finally bought the decimator and wanted to at least say I played it a few times. I purposely didn't make it a fat one though as I hate fat turrets.

I almost want FFG to errata a "fix" for turrets, if only because of how comical it will be to see this forums reaction to it. Oh how glorious that could be.

(On a quite side note, great post by the way ficklegreendice! Always fun to see the reaction to posts like this. I always enjoy picturing the scenario of others posting who blow things out of proportion.

*Begins reading post*

"hey, I know a lot of people feel the same way as me about this, so here are some thoughts on how to make this game as enjoyable as possible when playing against turre.." *stops reading*

*Begins mashing keyboard*

"WHAT THE HECK IS YOUR PROBLEM YOU WHINER TURRETS AREN'T BROKEN I BEAT THEM SO YOU'RE JUST BAD GO PLAY ANOTHER GAME YOU BIG BABY IF YOU CANT TAKE THE HEAT THEN GET OUT OF THE... WHATEVER THE SAYING IS CHANGED TO WHEN IN REFERENCE TO STAR WARS! ... Oh and give D&D attack wing a try it's great. "

Take out turrets and the game might as well be called felhorn. It's all going to be about ps9+ boost and barrel rolling.

In other words, take turrets out of x-wing and it's all going to be about arcs and dodging them? Where do I sign up???

You do realize that smart turret play means staying out of other ships' firing arcs, right? (Hint: so they can't fire on you.) I don't know where people got the idea that just because you have 360 degree firing that you suddenly get to disregard flying altogether. It's nonsense.

Yeah. Turrets are for *smart* peoples. that is why you see so many of them!

The world is full of smart people!

Le sigh. sarcasm aside. Yes; no one right in their minds thinks that you can 'disregard flying' with a (fat) turret.

But it is a **** sight *easier*. Han/Chirpy with Predator is a lot scarier when blocked as any other ship in the game.

That less-scary ship also is a lot easier to kill.

Most of us have seen Interceptors blown out of space wit one bad die roll. (I feel ya fickle)

Now. for the love of God the game; can we please go back to the constructive posting we saw early in the thread?

Most of us have seen Interceptors blown out of space wit one bad die roll. (I feel ya fickle)

a: anecdotal data is anecdotal

b: Nekkid TIE's SHOULD be easier to kill than their shielded counterparts.

c: If your Interceptor gets one shot by anything nowadays (not just turrets, ANYTHING) - you're doing it wrong.

d: exception to the rule: Proximity Mines. It's OK to get one shot by them.

e: Less QQ, moar pew pew Elkerlyc

In other words, take turrets out of x-wing and it's all going to be about arcs and dodging them? Where do I sign up???

HERE.

You do realize that smart turret play means staying out of other ships' firing arcs, right? (Hint: so they can't fire on you.) I don't know where people got the idea that just because you have 360 degree firing that you suddenly get to disregard flying altogether. It's nonsense.

You do realise the 1300 and 2400 out fly most fighters and that's one of the big issues right?

One of the major reasons for the "hate" is they can out manoeuvre fighters, the falcon is agile for a freighter but it shouldn't go faster than purpose built military fighters or pull off tighter turns.

Stacked right they can arc dodge and still land good damage where smaller ships suffer from not being able to augment their rolls on attacks after boosting or rolling.

They must travel farther due to their large base, making it easy for small base opponents to tail unless you can outwit them. A turret that can be shot at is a wasted turret.

They must travel farther due to their large base, making it easy for small base opponents to tail unless you can outwit them. A turret that can be shot at is a wasted turret.

So your just glossing over the tighter turns then.

Fact is small ships can't follow them easily because the large ships arc dodge then blast them with four attacks which they can still reroll because of pilot and crew abilities, there's no benefit to following close to PWT as you loose a war of attrition.

And if you hang back they'll kill one ship and boost away for the rest of the game.

PWT issues are more than just shooting 360.

You're glossing over that a tight turn on a large ship includes a large ship base. Small base ships can follow.

Focus fire with mutliples and kill. Or take its escorts and evade it the rest of the game. Back to basics stuff, man. You know this, you just don't like it, and you're confusing dislike with broken.

So your just glossing over the tighter turns then.

You mean one 4 dice attack, I take it? So, unless you're griping purely about YT-2400's here, you're talking range one. Which means their opponents' ship would get bonus dice as well. Plus, turrets aren't the only ships which have pilot abilities, elite talents and crew, you know.

And if you hang back they'll kill one ship and boost away for the rest of the game.

^ all of the above examples bear similarities to what people told the anti-Phantom movement to do (just take upgrade XYZ, PS9+, maneuver like this, etc.), which worked well - but still, look where those complaints took the Phantom.

I for one would not be surprised if fat turrets took a hit with the nerf-bat, because they are clearly not balanced - in my opinion.

And I like to think that I know, as I fly them to great effect without even having to think very hard.

Most of us have seen Interceptors blown out of space wit one bad die roll. (I feel ya fickle)

a: anecdotal data is anecdotal

b: Nekkid TIE's SHOULD be easier to kill than their shielded counterparts.

c: If your Interceptor gets one shot by anything nowadays (not just turrets, ANYTHING) - you're doing it wrong.

d: exception to the rule: Proximity Mines. It's OK to get one shot by them.

e: Less QQ, moar pew pew Elkerlyc

Man. Are you persistent in ignoring the things actually said and keeping the 'QQ-pew pew' kiddy approach.

re;

a) Anecdotal? It happens. A lot. All you need is roll a really poor dice roll with crippling effects. Unlike for 13-16 hp turrets.

b) Who claimed otherwise? Straw man. (again)

c) If it happens a lot. Sure. If it happens due to a fluky die roll? Which happen over the course of several games. (like a tournament for example.)

d) We agree on something. Now if only you stopped typing e)

e) Try arguments. This is as useful as t!ts on a fish.

You're glossing over that a tight turn on a large ship includes a large ship base. Small base ships can follow.

Focus fire with mutliples and kill. Or take its escorts and evade it the rest of the game. Back to basics stuff, man. You know this, you just don't like it, and you're confusing dislike with broken.

So, you don't want to get into a following match with fat Han or super Dash. I think swarms and joust-groups actually work a bit more like they're supposed to against the Deci whose mitigation/mobility is not quite as good as the YTs.

The maneuver advantage of turrets is that they have a lot more options for movement than an actual ship that has to dogfight because he can fire from anywhere, letting him focus purely on dodging, forcing the player with fighters to make more 50-50 type decisions to keep him in arc. The thing is, even if you're in a couple arcs, the Fat Hans can pretty much always survive several turns of that kind of shooting.

Also this is why turret-turret games are massively boring.

As I said before, a turret meta is like a ww2 dogfighting game where B-25s and Ju-88s dominate the meta and that doesn't feel quite right.

while I appreciate the sentiment, guys, this thread's really about slapping down counters to PWTs given the current stock of options we have available

sure, FFG would greatly improve the game if they did something about such an overly simplistic advantage, but we're not drafting a petition here and even if we did we'd have to wait a long time before it comes to pass

until then, we have plenty of X-wing to play and plenty of PWTs to cope with and I'm hoping we have more tech floating around in the game than just in the OP

I was personally surprised by how A-wings did, and how much auto-thrusters did to force PWTs to actually think about their facing; likewise other durable ships such as soonts and corran (Who needs to be double teamed) and the threat of stress/ionization

QQ

a: no it doesn't. Not if you know what you're doing, anyway.

b: It's not a straw man, because I'm not using it as an argument - I'm simply making a statement. A simple, straightforward, factually accurate point. TIEs are cheap. TIEs are disposable. They SHOULD be easier to destroy than a 60 point, heavily upgraded ship. It SHOULD be possible to one-shot kill them - especially if the person flying them doesn't pay due care and attention/know what they're doing. This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

c: Yes, fluky dice rolls do occasionally happen. However if you've put yourself in the position where you have to rely on the outcome of a dice roll, you're doing it wrong. See a.

d: Good! But...

e: I'll stop saying it when you stop doing it. Quit making excuses. Less QQ, moar pew pew Elkerlyc.

PWTs aren't a problem so much as 3 attack dice PWTs on a large base ship. The K-wing is perfectly fine and dandy with a 2 dice PWT. The problem is you get Falcons and VTs that can take everything you throw at them, and dish some back. However, there are plenty of good counters. I mentioned in the Y-wing thread an Int. Agent Conner K that can net a Fatty, and then a couple Ys swoop in and deal heavy damage. I think the current state of the meta is actually good, because it is allowing underdog ships (Ys, As) to make a comeback.

PWTs aren't a problem so much as 3 attack dice PWTs on a large base ship. The K-wing is perfectly fine and dandy with a 2 dice PWT. The problem is you get Falcons and VTs that can take everything you throw at them, and dish some back. However, there are plenty of good counters. I mentioned in the Y-wing thread an Int. Agent Conner K that can net a Fatty, and then a couple Ys swoop in and deal heavy damage. I think the current state of the meta is actually good, because it is allowing underdog ships (Ys, As) to make a comeback.

Just so you're aware - a TIE Interceptor (or A-Wing) with Autothrusters and both a Focus Token and Evade token needs to roll the following to take 1 (ONE) single point of hull damage from a 3 dice PWT that rolls ALL hits:

At range 1: two or more blanks on three dice.

At range 2: three blanks on three dice.

At range 3: four blanks on four dice.

Add a Stealth Device into this equation for funsies.

Against a 2 dice PWT without support or a Gunner mechanic, a TIE Autoceptor is essentially invulnerable a: stays out of range one and b: takes an evade token each round.

^

which is why auto-thrusters are such lovely things it'll force the PWT to care about its facing, and it'll minimize the impact of **** green dice. Basically, it's the perfect upgrade for moving games against PWT away from the dice and back to maneuvering.

Whole heartedly recommend running this thing, and now that I've tried out tons of As I'd recommend it on every ship that can take it. ****'s basically auto-include given how many PWTs I have to deal with.

we need more ships that can take them, though

...which is why auto-thrusters are such lovely things it'll force the PWT to care about its facing, and it'll minimize the impact of **** green dice. Basically, it's the perfect upgrade for moving games against PWT away from the dice and back to maneuvering.

...yep. Against the above, a PWT simply cannot afford to run away - boosting interceptors enjoy being at long range against them and have the speed to catch up (the large based ships need to turn eventually), and they're not going to effectively hurt them unless they can get them at range one or in the front arc

It's one of the reasons why Aggressors are so popular. Interceptors now have crazy damage mitigaiton aganst PWTs, and can dodge normal arcs reliably. A-Wings are not quite as amazing as they've got the mitigation but less attack. Star Vipers unfortunatley don't have the Evade action.

But yeah, even with just three hull, Interceptors can now be an absolute nightmare to take down.

I do hope to see more Xizor in the future

what the Viper lacks in evade, he makes up for in PS 9 + his ability which is basically an evade if you don't care about where the damage goes