Surviving the Tyrancy of Turrets and Tricksy Dice

By ficklegreendice, in X-Wing

Hey guys,

With talks of turrets and dice going on, I thought it'd be a good time to share how I have been coping with what I feel are unsavory elements in an otherwise extraordinary game.

By now, we should all know of the two looming shadows of bull and blubber: fat Han and fat Cheri. These two pack what is in my opinion the worst mechanic ever designed for this game, the primary weapon turret, and fly the only ships that can abuse it effectively (poor YT-2400 shoots 360, but hits as hard as a tie fighter). You simply cannot avoid a PWT if you hope to engage a VT or YT, it is literally impossible without the aid of a space peanut or an epic ship. To make matters worse, both ships lather on upgrades that trivialize obstructions or the impact of blocking (upgrades such as predator, c3po, gunner) which scale hard with the two high PS pilots and their offensive, action-independent abilities. The end result is a ship that is always in danger of being saved by your bad rolls.

Sure, dice are everywhere in this game regardless of ship-type, but there are no other ships where these exchanges cannot be avoided. Through the magic of honest-to-god arcs or minimum/maximum ranges, you can avoid ever having to roll your horrible green bastards by simply playing well. Unfortunately, until FFG erratas the PWT you will always have to interact with these dice and there will always be a chance that your plays will be rewarded with a slap in the face from rngesus himself.

Still, here I am playing X-wing for quite some time now. Let me share with you how I've coped.

Do note that "to cope" and "to win" are two very different things. The aim of this post is not to showcase foolproof strategies, those simply do not exist because you will never fully escape green dice and you will never escape getting shot at no matter how skillful you are. Instead, I intend to showcase builds that let your maneuvers matter almost as much as they would against any other ship.

1. Defeat dice with guarantees

Ironically, the ship least affected by the PWT's dice swings are PWTs themselves. If you want to play a ship as far removed from the effects of fickle dice, you technically can't do it better than the 0 agility Decimator and the always-heavily-modified attacks of cherineau. Unfortunately, I am not enamored with the idea of dice-offs with other PWTs since now neither player can avoid attacks, and that detracts quite a bit from the manuevering (not to mention places undue influence on that one roll-off for initiative). And so, we must look elsewhere.

A good place to start would be the popular meta ships that can survive in a setting polluted by fatties, namely Soontir, Corran, and the IGs. These arced ships all share a common theme of packing plenty of guaranteed damage mitigation, rivaling Han's c3po + evade with evade + thrusters, evade + r2-d2, and another evade + thrusters respectively.

The theme of all these ships over PWTs, however, is that they're highly dependent on manuevering. Auto-thrusters will not work in arc (outside of range 3) and Corran has to lock himself into a very limited array of greens to shed damage, making him predictable and avoidable. Moreover, Soonts or any sensor-less e-wing/aggressor actually have to worry about getting blocked, because without actions they have no defense against the whims of their green dice. This weakness is exactly what makes them so attractive.

Auto-thrusters are without a doubt my favorite card for doing the impossible: making your maneuvers count against PWTs. The guaranteed dice modification, when triggered, gives you a tangible benefit for outmanuevering them, and the fact that it can be countered means that losing Soonts to a range 1 shot by an in-arc Han can mean that you didn't play as well as could have, not that you would have suffered at any angle and nothing you could have done would have mattered. Combined with the evade action, thrusters make it very difficult for PWTs to land damage from out of arc shots and forces them, essentially, to act like honest to god arced ships once in a while. The only cons to thrusters are that green dice can and still will try to **** you over, and that thrusters are not available to every ship in the game.

As for Corran, my experience with E-wings pens them as being essentially invincible 1-on-1. While a green manuevered E-wing is very easy to dodge, there's not much a turret can do about the turtled terror of focus + evade as r2-d2 can repair the damage caused by horrible green dice. Since Corran cannot get thrusters and being out of arc gives you zero benefit, the thing you have to watch out for is enemy 2-ship lists concentrating fire on him. r2-d2 and PTL do good work, but they will not reliably staved off turn after turn of even two 3-dice attacks.

A less popular, but no less potent option is Xizor. Between auto-thrusters and his ability, Xizor guarantees that 2 damage rolled against him will be brushed aside. The problem, of course, is that his escort generally cannot cope with dice the same way.

In closing, these ships and pilots set a good standard for the only reliable way to withstand a PWT's bull: guaranteed damage reduction based largely upon outmanuevering your enemies.

2.) GSP is the new BSP

One of the lists previously touted as the turret killer was the swarm. Turrets pack a lot of points into a single attack and can be outdiced by multiple smaller ships. In practice, however, the ease of flying 2-ships and the lack of partial scoring make flying the mentally taxing swarm a wash. Worse of all, bringing more ships ultimately just brings more way that dice can screw you. An auto-thrustering, evading Soonts will take 1/2 damage at most from a turret. A focused Tie Fighter is never not in danger of being oneshot, regardless of your input as a player.

BBBBZ does not share the green dice weakness, but they have their own problem in producing red dice to match. The difference of one hull, of one bad roll depriving you of a hit, can lose you the game against a PWT. Even if you win the ensuing dice-fest, you might well be left wondering

why you didn't just go off and play 40k instead. No, to bring the game's tactical manuevering back to the forefront where it belongs we're going to need to go back a few waves.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you:

Green Squadron Pilot (19)

*PTL (3)

*Refit (-2)

*Thrusters (2)

[22]

What this little guy lacks in raw health and dice, it makes up for in reliability and maneuverability. The curse of green dice will always be present, but PTL gives you access to the defensive focus + evade or the offensive focus + TL to get dice rolling in your favor. Autothrusters are absolutely essential to ensuring tactical use of the A-wing, especially in hit and run scenarios, aren't trivially invalidated by the poor mechanics behind the PWT. I used to run several un-thrustered prototypes and then stopped when I lost a run at a free cr-90 because I had to roll 1 natural evade out of 24 against cherineau. The thrusters, and maybe even the reduced impact of predator, are essential to making my games against PWTs even the least bit enjoyable.

Furthermore, they can be used to secure TL at range 3 without having to push the limit for a defensive token or evade, which keeps your dial options open and your A-wing healthy enough to not just get automatically killed when it tries to get another shot off.

The mechanics behind PTL and the fact that these little buggers live and die on their actions/thrusters leads to some very engaging games where it's less that PWTs pull wins out of their ass (though it can definitely still happen) and more that you did not enable the little buggers properly. GSPs are amazing for putting you, the player, back in control of your game.

As an alternative to BBBBZ, you could run 3 of the above Greens and 2 protos with thrusters.

3.) Mini-fell

Jake Farrel, Soontir-lite, boasts very similar defenses to the baron. While he cannot turtle with redundant focus, he can still pack on the focus/evade/thrusters combo and move like a maniac. Best of all, he can target-lock without having to waste points on targeting computer and he comes with some ablative shielding to buffer against a few bull rolls.

Jake's utility as an ace is hampered by his measly 2 red-dice, but when armed with prockets and the reliability of TL + focus (plus his ability, which allows him to scoot into range even after taking offensive dice modifications) he becomes an assassin capable of compensating for the A-wing's general lack of offense. With the highly likely 5 hits it produces, it provides a great counter-measure against the soontirs and corrans that often accompany PWTs and give A-wings trouble. Even a fully tanked Soonts would have to make four 5/8 rolls to completely negate the attack, and one damage is all you need to knock off that stealth device and make him much easier to kill. If soonts gets hit by prockets on a turn that he gets blocked...well, you can rightfully call bull if he manages to survive.

The 33 points of Jake (VI, PTL, test pilot, rockets, thrusters) make a great replacement for two prototypes with thrusters, giving you Jake and 3 GSPs to throw against opposing turrets. Even better, it's a 99 point list that'll give you the initiative bid against the derivative Cheri + Soonts build.

Jake even has select utility as a rebel captive soak, given he can get a defensive/offensive focus and free action into auto-thruster range/angle before taking the stress. Jake is the epitome of maneuver dependent, a high-flying, high performance ace until you screw up and he turns into a prototype pilot. With access to autothrusters, he forces PWTs to respect that fact.

just beware, suffering bull greendice on your one procket roll can be a real mood killer :(

4.) Control without thrusters

Lacking thrusters will almost always land you at the mercy of the dice, but fortunately control elements give you ways around them.

Ion, while technically dice-dependent, carries enough threat to force the turret to care about its positioning. One forced 1-straight can be enough to force them onto an unsavory obstacle or on a crash course for the terrifying table edge. The requirement that large ships be double-tokened before ionization makes the damage loss of ion cannon unacceptable against the guaranteed exchange of dice, but with BTL-A4s and the upcoming ion bombs/conner net it may yet become a viable counter.

Stress is even better, because cards such as Tactician and R3-a2, god of stress, don't give two ***** about what you roll. Just line up the proper shot and bring the tokens down. While PWTs are, rather disappointingly, less affected by stress than just about every other ship in the game (don't have to worry about how their dial will affect their 360 weapon) it still forces a few more maneuver considerations upon them based upon the ubiquity of engine upgrade. Shutting off EU turns PWTs into lumbering, (even more) predictable bastards and while they have great dials it's not for an abundance of green maneuvers.

Stress also shuts down evades, via falcon title or isanne, which can be quite helpful. It's not something PWTs necessarily enjoy dealing with, especially not around obstacles nor the threat of other-wise cancel-able ion attacks.

Basically, Stress can bypass dice or guaranteed defensive tech and forces PWTs to make more significant decisions by forcing some manner of limitation on them.

The panic attack Y-wing (Ion Cannon Turret, R3-A2, Btl-A4) is the pinnacle of control tech atm, offering range and dice-independent stress on demand and the threat of ionization in one convenient package. At the very least, if the game goes poorly you can have fun trying to outdo Tycho i.t.o stress tokens stacked.

Sadly, though, control tech will always do more to counter the PTL small ships that can tangle with turrets (soontir, corran), but since they tend to hang around PWTs anyway this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Being able to ward off small aces gives games against PWT 2-ship lists a positioning element you would not have enjoyed otherwise. Unlike the PWT, forcing these ships out of arcs might also result in them losing their attack for the round.

Note that you don't necessarily have to play Panic Attack to get good use out of the Y. Additional sources of stress are more reliable than just the one, but the Y is perfectly capable of double-stressing on its own. This could make it a very interesting partner for our good friend dash, who hits 100 points when fully kitted out (eu, KK, hlc, outrider); escorted by the Y & a thruster prototype. Because of the doughnut hole, Dash provides a focal point where you can bet your opponent will want to be, and that's exactly where the little Y will aim its arc.

Sadly, that's all I got for now. Those are the only ways I have found to make games against PWTs the least bit enjoyable or engaging, the ways through which your input as a player can be respected and the impact of the dice reduced as much as possible. Hopefully, anyone similarly annoyed by the current popularity of two very specific ships can take some sort of inspiration from this wall of text.

Edited by ficklegreendice

Is it bad that my first thought on reading this is "tyranny"? :)

I have repeatedly escaped getting shot at it in 100% of games against turrets.

If you give me 49 points of Corran Horn I guarantee I can frustrate any 60 points you field better than a turret can. The turret mechanic is fine. Ships that are defense-oriented are a necessary and sometimes-frustrating aspect of any good combat game.

Edited by TasteTheRainbow

I have never thought the turret mechanic was broken; it was needed to balance ultra mobile ships. It just worked TOO well and most arc dodgers were too frail against it. Autothrusters have fixed that, though perhaps even too much, but it has at least reached a reasonable balance.

The issues with "fat" turrets are really the extreme resiliency and extreme mobility afforded to them by engine upgrade on a large base (NOT the 360 fire mechanic) and how that affects timed play in an MOV environment. That's it. Fix that and the game's quibbles will be almost inconsequential at that point.

All this railing about 360 fire and calling it skill-less comes across as much more petty than constructive.

I've been working on mathemetizing mobility in this game, and one of the major categories I've encountered in that endeavor is shared by turrets.

The ability to avoid a scenario in which you are attacked, and have no attack of your own.

This runs in contrast to its obverse; the ability to attack and not be attacked.
The higher your score is, the fewer extra attacks your opponent has, thereby improving your relative worth in the match-up.

Soontir Fel, with his ability to boost/barrel-roll with a free focus, can avoid that state an insane amount of the time, as he has an almost unparalleled ability to adjust his positioning at PS 9.

Pre-nerf Whisper, with the ability to decloak at PS 9 to acquire a position, was better than Fel.

They still rank lower than a Patrol Leader, who 100%s this unless he lands on an asteroid.

Edited by DraconPyrothayan

You genuinely wrote a post that in depth and didn't mention swarms? Block and remove. Most big ships die in two or three rounds of shooting.

If turrest were so OP this would be the most popular ship.

Outer_Rim_Smuggler.png

Swarms are mentioned; too much dice dependency for my taste

I have repeatedly escaped getting shot at it in 100% of games against turrets.

If you give me 49 points of Corran Horn I guarantee I can frustrate any 60 points you field better than a turret can. The turret mechanic is fine. Ships that are defense-oriented are a necessary and sometimes-frustrating aspect of any good combat game.

don't you worry, Corran's up there :P

Edited by ficklegreendice

AWESOME IDEAS!

That's a really dumb statement.

turrets aren't OP. Attack 3 Primary weapon turrets on large bases that are also hyper mobile and able to survive huge amounts of fire are the problem, combined with MoV stuff.

I do hope everyone's crying about crying OP because of something other than my post, because I never even mention the power of a turret or how balanced it is/is not. The only way anyone could get that idea is if they had not read it.

The only thing this post is doing is bringing up certain builds that I've used personally to undercut the impact of the unavoidable range 1-3, 360 degree weapon and the dice-fests it produces. There is no QQing (in fact, the it's complete opposite: offering solutions) about any perceived imbalance.

Edited by ficklegreendice

'Tyrancy'?

'Tyrancy'?

n.

derp

It's all a conspirany ;)

My path to taking on PWTs is to use multiple accurate shots against them, allowing my ships to actually feel like they are out-red-dicing this one shot per round turret. Above all, I get mad when my Soontir + AT + Hull cannot roll more than 2 hits against a Fat Han. At a 1v1 situation, it gets so tough to finish off 2 free evades, even if I'm not getting hit very hard.

Any ship with a way to stack Rerolls + Focus is capable of providing the accuracy necessary. Any ship with Gunner also can at least force 1 damage a turn by scaring the PWT into not wanting the potentially more hazardous Gunner attack.

I've personally had more success in timed games against Turrets when running Soontir + TC (+AT if can) than anything else. A good PWT player won't waste shots on a Soontir out of arc with tokens, so he'll go for the easier to kill supporting ships, aiming for a PWT vs Soontir end game, where the PWT has a 30 pt MoV advantage. It can be tough for 35 Fel to even take down the last 4 hp of a Falcon in a timely manner, or the last 6-7 hp of a Decimator, while still holding back a token for defense.

Squads that can add FCS or Predator have a great shot at getting past the defense, letting, say, 2 sets of 30 pt ships actually have a reliable chance of cracking the defenses. Squads that can't do this falter, as the PWT + Boost is great at setting up 1v1 situations, where getting bad red dice feels way worse than bad green dice, ink.

@ficklegreendice

I actually think A wings have it the hardest, at least of the AT carriers. They can only shoot 2-3 dice, 3 dice being a danger zone where AT might not even save you. It won't be smart for the PWT to shoot the low offense, high defense A Wing until end game, unless all other ships are even more defensive.

I have repeatedly escaped getting shot at it in 100% of games against turrets.

Somehow I doubt that you were getting any shots off, then. Sounds like 100% of your games against turrets ended in a 0-0 draw.

If turrest were so OP this would be the most popular ship.

Outer_Rim_Smuggler.png

Three times is enough, buddy. Let's get you home.

I have repeatedly escaped getting shot at it in 100% of games against turrets.

Somehow I doubt that you were getting any shots off, then. Sounds like 100% of your games against turrets ended in a 0-0 draw.

Killed them fine. I've lost exactly 5 tournament games to turrets. Blocking with the guy they want to shoot or blocking with someone who is waiting for a better shot is how you beat them. A prototype pilot with 1 hull left can completely piss in Dash's cornflakes.

When someone says that turrets can "always shoot you no matter what if you shoot them" what I hear is "I think that I should able to kill damaged turrets with rookie pilots". If you're in a 1v1 against a 50+ point ship with a generic or even a pair you've already lost. All of the situation descriptions that are cited inevitably are situations where they've already lost the game and somehow feel like they should still have a 50/50 shot. It's nonsense.

@ficklegreendice

I actually think A wings have it the hardest, at least of the AT carriers. They can only shoot 2-3 dice, 3 dice being a danger zone where AT might not even save you. It won't be smart for the PWT to shoot the low offense, high defense A Wing until end game, unless all other ships are even more defensive.

solution: fly nothing but a-wings ;)

I read through this. I personally don't hate turrets as much as you do, but I very much appreciate that you are making a sensible response rather than just screaming that the sky is falling.

The list that I have been working on lately involves corran horn with marksmanship (great for putting two crits a turn into the hull on a decimator) and biggs (wastes they few shots on a low priority target at range three in initial engagements). I have been refining it for a while to try to keep biggs alive for longer. The best I have found so far is jan ors crew on a b wing, but i am going to try wedge with draw their fire and r5-p9

If it'd helps, is recommend r4-d6 on Biggs. It doesn't necessarily help against PWTs but it does piss off common matchups such as dash or aggressors

R4-d6 can't cancel crits, but that just makes dtf all the more fun

Dtf by itself warrants mention just because of cheri

Hey, how does this fix X-Wings and TIE Defenders?! Oh wait, those were the other 50% of posts on this forum.

A couple of HLC's can also do work on a turret pretty fast.

Most think death by a thousand paper cuts. I say a few hard punches from some durable ships can clean up a turret really quickly.

One ship that comes to mind is the Firespray. With the cannon slot and crew, you can find some combinations that can really mess up a PWT.

If you load out Scum Boba with VI, HLC, Tactician, and EU, you have a ship that is dangerous at all 3 ranges. With VI the pilot can adjust after most ships, and the rear arc will come in handy to keep fire on the enemy.

Also keep in mind the TLT upgrade is going to bring new light to Panic Attack, and there's other goodies waiting to be revealed in wave 7 that can work against them.

If turrest were so OP this would be the most popular ship.

Outer_Rim_Smuggler.png

Three times is enough, buddy. Let's get you home.

I would say the same for Turret R op threads or turret threads in general! ;)

Edited by Marinealver