There is another option, add in different dice in an advanced set, I've mentioned this before - in the episode VII TIE thread, similar to armada, but certain ships might have a orange attack die as well as the red, or a blue agility in addition to the green. The difference could be a side of the die that has two hits/evade results, less blank sides, but may lack the focus result or fewer of them (or more).

This x-wing advanced back could be a stand alone expansion letting you play the newer ships, but have materials such as upgrades along the lines of engine and weapons red its that replace green/red dice on other ships. This can represent newer and more advanced technology working alongside the older original game craft.

I dunno. Armada doesn't use dice because things aren't really evading.

I like green dice for x-Wing. They're messy just like dogfighting Should be.

Yup that and FFG are not about to obsolete the two plus years of X-WING PAPER that we all have at home now.

AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN KIDS!

due to the mechanics of defense tokens (1 use = exhaust token, 2nd use = you lose it forever) getting hammered by multiple attacks quickly punishes you for mispositioned. Moreover, cards such as Intel Officer can quickly cripple a ship if it moves into the wrong arc (such as a VSD's front) by forcing the opponent to discard the used token or suffer a terrifying amount of damage. Finally, accuracy results on dice add some element of randomness by allowing the attacker to prevent the use of defense tokens. There is more than enough randomness in just the rolling of the offensive dice, and especially in the squadron combat.

Wait, you can Spend an exhausted defense token by getting rid of it forever? Is that not in the demo game, or just something the guy who taught me didn't mention- Because that would have been handy to know in the late game as the VSD in the demo.

I dunno. Armada doesn't use dice because things aren't really evading.

I like green dice for x-Wing. They're messy just like dogfighting Should be.

Yup that and FFG are not about to obsolete the two plus years of X-WING PAPER that we all have at home now.

AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN KIDS!

I am in this boat. I just got into this game 2 months ago and have already spent hundreds of dollars. I hope the game continues modified or not for at least a year or 2 before some major revamp. Cost is the reason I won't play Armada and would be the sole reason I wouldn't play X Wing.2 if it happens too soon. I think there is plenty of life left in this game, let's not wish it dead just yet.

I find the distaste for green dice interesting as the damage deck is my huge gripe with the game not the dice. There is no easy way to modify this deck idea and it's kinda crud outside a few good wammers. Green dice add a random element to defense vs building a better offense to just win faster. MTG has tumbled down that road for over a decade now and I am so sick of the faster=better mentality. I like move and counter move not who can zerg faster.

I find the distaste for green dice interesting as the damage deck is my huge gripe with the game not the dice. There is no easy way to modify this deck idea and it's kinda crud outside a few good wammers. Green dice add a random element to defense vs building a better offense to just win faster. MTG has tumbled down that road for over a decade now and I am so sick of the faster=better mentality. I like move and counter move not who can zerg faster.

We clearly have not been playing the same Standard. Stupid Jace the Mindsculpter. Stupid Sphinx's Revelation. Stupid Elspeth, Sun's Champion.

I dunno. Armada doesn't use dice because things aren't really evading.

I like green dice for x-Wing. They're messy just like dogfighting Should be.

Yup that and FFG are not about to obsolete the two plus years of X-WING PAPER that we all have at home now.

AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN KIDS!

I am in this boat. I just got into this game 2 months ago and have already spent hundreds of dollars. I hope the game continues modified or not for at least a year or 2 before some major revamp. Cost is the reason I won't play Armada and would be the sole reason I wouldn't play X Wing.2 if it happens too soon. I think there is plenty of life left in this game, let's not wish it dead just yet.

I find the distaste for green dice interesting as the damage deck is my huge gripe with the game not the dice. There is no easy way to modify this deck idea and it's kinda crud outside a few good wammers. Green dice add a random element to defense vs building a better offense to just win faster. MTG has tumbled down that road for over a decade now and I am so sick of the faster=better mentality. I like move and counter move not who can zerg faster.

Do not let the haters get you down. FFG is not going to change anything that works, and they will eventually fix the things that really do suck. There are a lot of people here that buzz in with their BS Ideas from 40K and think they can FIX the game. They are to be ignored. Don't love the game? Then play house rules and shut up.. FFG owes you nothing but an excellent produce that they have been providing far better than most game companies. Once you buy this product you do not get to change it from the roots up... you do not work for FFG. You fringe people are not professional game designers and sculptors and you are most defiantly not in charge.

Do not let the haters get you down. FFG is not going to change anything that works, and they will eventually fix the things that really do suck. There are a lot of people here that buzz in with their BS Ideas from 40K and think they can FIX the game. They are to be ignored. Don't love the game? Then play house rules and shut up.. FFG owes you nothing but an excellent produce that they have been providing far better than most game companies. Once you buy this product you do not get to change it from the roots up... you do not work for FFG. You fringe people are not professional game designers and sculptors and you are most defiantly not in charge.

Relax. People vent their frustrations on the internet and engage in armchair game design. Unless someone starts menacing the FFG staff or just starts attacking people personally (In which case the Mods will come down on them like a bag of hammers if they keep it up), it isn't hurting anything.

And, frankly, look at D&D 3.5. One of the most well-loved RPG systems in recent history. And many of the most ardent fans will be glad to tell you everything wrong with the system and their own thoughts on how to fix the system (And how 4th edition and/or Pathfinder failed horribly at doing so). Discussing the flaws of a game you love and your own thoughts on a solution doesn't hurt a game. Frankly, given the deeper understanding such discussions can give you of said system, it might actually improve it, at least for the people doing the discussion.

Just had a game where triple evades saved my Alpha Squadron Pilot from a range 1 shot from an IG-2000. Gotta say, I'm a fan! Sure, his buddy was one-shot by a Heavy Laser Cannon, but it's all part of the ebb and flow of the battle. And it's so much fun!

Do any of you remember the very first X-wing demo at GenCon? If memory serves me right, they used D6 for attack and defense, and the number of [hits] and [evades] were identical on the dice. The games went on, and on, and on! I'm glad they altered it to have fewer [evade] results on the agility dice.

Also, the current agility dice result in "water cooler" moments that the company is so fond of. For example, "Do you remember that time Soontir Fel was range 3 through an asteroid with Stealth Device, and my Rookie Pilot dusted him in one shot?!" They really like these moments, and so do I. It doesn't lend itself to be the best competitive game because of the variance, but it sure makes for a fun one!

I would imagine that if painting with broad strokes, the more 'narrative style' gamers enjoy the excitement of the green dice, while the more competitive gamers see them as a nuisance.

I would imagine that if painting with broad strokes, the more 'narrative style' gamers enjoy the excitement of the green dice, while the more competitive gamers see them as a nuisance.

without narrative, all that's happening is the player takes a backseat while the dice have all the fun

it doesn't really have anything to do with being competitive either, anyone looking for a tactical or involving experience is going to be understandably miffed when the moves they've invested time and energy into are undone by some freak dice. It gets rather depressing after an especially bad string and especially against PWTs, to the point where you have to stop and wonder if you couldn't just be replaced by an rng.

games such as DND or Betrayal on the House on the Hill are amazing fun because the sheer random nature plays into a diverse narrative that no one can truly predict or expect because it fluctuates based on a factor outside your control (the dice)

In tactical games, RNG will always be a factor to some degree in order to ensure a variety of different engagements, but the more of a role the dice are given, ultimately the less influence the player has on the outcome of his/her own actions

I hope to hell not. Sure their fickle if you play a lot of empire. But playing a lot of rebel as I do I find the pendulum swings both ways. They just as often get in my way as they betray you. I just always accepted that they were not there to save you, just cover for your mistakes. Or that they provide more cinematic feel, which they do. It would be a power gamer desire to want them make you invincible, or to want them gone so your power play attacks always succeed. Not being all high mighty and obnoxious over here but if your not wanting green dice in the equation, your not wanting to play X-wing. It is fallacy to think that a strategy game should not require risk of failure, or in the case of green dice your opponents success also. Risk taking is a part of war. It's a blessing that dice in games can show this from a design standpoint.

Go to chess, then you don't have any dice at all! that's the game for you if you don't want unknown variable results. Or better yet, Go. That's a game you'd really like.

Just my two cents to be lost on the waves of the internet sea.

due to the mechanics of defense tokens (1 use = exhaust token, 2nd use = you lose it forever) getting hammered by multiple attacks quickly punishes you for mispositioned. Moreover, cards such as Intel Officer can quickly cripple a ship if it moves into the wrong arc (such as a VSD's front) by forcing the opponent to discard the used token or suffer a terrifying amount of damage. Finally, accuracy results on dice add some element of randomness by allowing the attacker to prevent the use of defense tokens. There is more than enough randomness in just the rolling of the offensive dice, and especially in the squadron combat.

Wait, you can Spend an exhausted defense token by getting rid of it forever? Is that not in the demo game, or just something the guy who taught me didn't mention- Because that would have been handy to know in the late game as the VSD in the demo.

That's something the guy who taught you didn't mention. And yeah, VSDs have no reason not to burn redirects for good as their shield total drops toward zero.

simple answer... no... why release another x-wing game with different mechanics to compete with itself if you want to play without defence dice use Decimators

I hope not as well. Good old fashioned luck (or lack of it) provides some of the most tense, enjoyable, memorable and hilarious moments in the game. Take away the potential for evading a full bank of hits or being one-shot through pure chance and you take away a lot of the charm of the game.

Red dice are more powerful than green dice as it is (and they should be - a good offence is the best defence after all), and there's still plenty of room for piloting ability, experience and strategy without removing key components of the game.

The current system is simple yet elegant, easy to pick up and play yet surprisingly deep. Why make unnecessary changes to what is clearly a winning formula?

Take away the potential for evading a full bank of hits or being one-shot through pure chance and you take away a lot of the charm of the game.

I'd note that removing green dice doesn't actually remove this. Well, it does remove the potential for evading a massive hit, but it doesn't remove the potential to instagib a hard target. Using Armada as the reference, sure Howlrunner has the ability to cut incoming damage by half or negate all damage from an attack...but if you roll two accuracies and three hits, she's still dying in one attack.

That does not mean I'm in favor of removing green dice, mind (I don't actually have a strong opinion; if FFG were to remove them, I'm reasonably confident the replacement system would be solid. At the same time, the system we have now works pretty well, so...well, I don't care).

I'd note that removing green dice doesn't actually remove this...

It does remove the uncertainty, the tension and the drama, however, which is the entire point I was driving at. 4 defence dice could turn up four blanks or four evades for any given attack - you can influence the dice, sure, but you simply don't know how things will pan out for sure until you roll them. 4 tokens, on the other hand, would let you know exactly how much damage you can survive - as you pointed out with the Howlrunner example above.

We have a habit in my gaming circle of when you get to a critical roll - say Soontir Fel on his last hull point facing 3 hits with no defence tokens (unlikely, sure) - of rolling the defence dice one at a time. Just for fun, to drag the drama out. You'd be amazed how often it comes down to the last roll of the dice.

I've not played Armada but I think the Imperial Assault dice could be viable if somebody wanted to try home rules to use exclusively or supplement with them. I don't think we'd see a do over of X-Wing for the numerous reasons posted in the thread. IA is interesting though because it does provide an element of random defense but also has a mechanic for range and accuracy which I think could be interesting -

Very un-thought out thoughts -

Option 1: use IA dice exclusively - based on ship attack and agility

Option 2: use X-Wing red for ship attack - modify using IA based on pilot skill

the IA dice aren't any better in a vacuum, just in the storied setting of the campaign where you can have really hilarious moments with your friends

the first mission we played, we realized the game was stacked against the poor rebels...until our leader (the only player with descent experience) took his jedi into the eye of the storm and managed to fart out four perfect white die defenses in a row. Won us the mission right there, and we soon tumbled out of control with experience points and credits and before long the game became a bit trivial

FFG ain't change'n ----!

How much would be different if you could simply choose to reroll all green dice but with 1 less? So a ship rolling 4 blanks could choose to reroll all the dice but with 3 instead.

I'm not necessarily advocating change, but would a mechanic similar to that be a better alternative than designing out the green dice all together?

I feel many people here are missing the point of red and green dice. They emulate probability and, therefore, risk.

Risk and management of that risk is what adds suspense to the game. It also adds difficulty. Without having to manage risk choices can become too simple.

Yes an x-wing can one shot a TIE, but that's good since it presents a choice. The TIE pilot has to be aware of that risk, and evaluate whether his next move is worth that risk or not, then based on what happens, he must either change his plan or capitalize on his fortune.

If you don't think getting an attack off with a TIE is worth the risk of getting one shot, you either attempt to fly out of arc, evade, or you try to destroy the attacker before he gets shots off.

Also, take a look at any air combat, especially with cannon/gun since they're a closer analogy to lasers than missiles are. Your shots may land in the tail and do nothing, they may bust through the cockpit and instantly kill, or it may miss by mere inches.

you can emulate probability with literally any combination of dice, even just one toss provided there's a good enough curve

risk management doesn't really exist if the management thereof is random, because you're not really managing ****. This is why things such as auto-thrusters, c3po, and the evade action are so popular in a competitive environment; you just can't afford to let luck decide any more than you can help when there's m.o.v on the line; when there's no such thing as risk management because PWTs can shoot you regardless of where you are. If every ship in the game could be avoided, such as 2ndary turrets including HLC outrider, then the proposed model would hold true. As is, "risk management" can just get you one shot even at range 3 where the one green die is the best any of your efforts can get you.

Armada defense tokens are more proper risk management because there is only so much heat you can take before you have to cross your fingers and pray your opponent's offense dice fart out on him (and, since the chances that even Armada red dice fail are far less than unmodified X-wing red dice, you will get rightfully punished for poor management)

As I said before, the system is serviceable but it's by no means exceptional. Apart from 40k, it is definitely one of the spikier systems that sometimes eats through even its own mechanics. Just yesterday, I had blocked an opposing Jake Farrel and gotten my own into range 1 for TL + focus prockets to the face. Said prockets do 2 damage after he rolled a perfect, naked 3 evades and then returned fire for 3 damage. I'm not sure how enamored people are with random chance, but at times like these it sure as hell feels like my efforts to outplay my opponent are ultimately futile and that we could just be replaced by two rngs spitting numbers at each other. Fortunately, they're relatively rare; they just sometimes come up at the worst possible times and are 100% outside your control.

They are, however, more common around PWTs because you will never not have to roll green dice (unless they **** up royally and run aground on a space peanut).

Good points. I didn't fully consider competitive play. I was more heavily looking at it from a casual standpoint.

I like the green dice. Makes defending feel active and gives me moments like when my 6 year old daughter rolled evades to escape my attack. She jumped up in excitement and shouted "Ha daddy I got squiggles!"

If there was just a little more element of certainty on the core mechanics it would be better.

I don't mind randomness. It's what makes this game not chess. But the amount of random is just too high; if you can't produce the results you need, you can't win. Simple as that. All the skill in the game is built on that principle alone.

Consider if your results didn't completely depend on dice. Suppose the dice could only help you, I mean. Each ship has a basic attack/defense output, which has a chance of being enhanced by the dice.

Suppose the rules were like that.

E.g. an X-Wing, when attacking, always produces 1 hit result. On top of that, it rolls 2 modifiable dice, making the results span from 1-3 hits without range modifiers (as opposed to the current 0-3).

Dice matter-- it can't 1-shot an enemy without them-- but if the dice fail, it's not the end of the line, either.