Soonts and Chirps go together like beer and pretzels, which is what the two ship game has boiled everything down to.

I think a turret nerf is inevitable after they redesigned the phantom and nothing changed, bombs are the next attempt but I don't see it being enough to deter turret use.

That or the scoring system needs a change so a 60 point ship boosting away won't win you the game.

Seeing brand new players place high at Premier Events, due to them fielding turrets?

(new players as in, brand new and very unfamiliar with the rules)

Check!

Lol you can't be serious. Go over some of the regional results so you can see how the bottom is full of net listers that think the ships will do their work for them.

If that's true I struggle to express how much joy it gives me.

Seeing brand new players place high at Premier Events, due to them fielding turrets?

(new players as in, brand new and very unfamiliar with the rules)

Check!

Lol you can't be serious. Go over some of the regional results so you can see how the bottom is full of net listers that think the ships will do their work for them.

As is the top in some areas.

Your argument is?

Right. So how good they do depends on who's flying them.

Did you even bother to read the topic or did you just come here because your trigger word "turrets" was in the subject line?

Seeing brand new players place high at Premier Events, due to them fielding turrets?

(new players as in, brand new and very unfamiliar with the rules)

Check!

Lol you can't be serious. Go over some of the regional results so you can see how the bottom is full of net listers that think the ships will do their work for them.

As is the top in some areas.

Your argument is?

Right. So how good they do depends on who's flying them.

Sure they do, and them being easier to fly than say, a 7 TIE formation, over the course of a day - must surely impact their performance, right?

Hint, PWTs aren't that hard to fly well.

Did you even bother to read the topic or did you just come here because your trigger word "turrets" was in the subject line?

For your information - I did.

How that is relevant to your previous statement is another thing however.

Seeing brand new players place high at Premier Events, due to them fielding turrets?

(new players as in, brand new and very unfamiliar with the rules)

Check!

Lol you can't be serious. Go over some of the regional results so you can see how the bottom is full of net listers that think the ships will do their work for them.

As is the top in some areas.

Your argument is?

Right. So how good they do depends on who's flying them.

Sure they do, and them being easier to fly than say, a 7 TIE formation, over the course of a day - must surely impact their performance, right?

Hint, PWTs aren't that hard to fly well.

Did you even bother to read the topic or did you just come here because your trigger word "turrets" was in the subject line?

For your information - I did.

How that is relevant to your previous statement is another thing however.

I think at this point you're just arguing for the sake of it.

I already mentioned in my previous post that in the hands of an experienced player, the turret is better. Like you said, it takes "less" to fly it well, than your example, 7 TIE Swarm, or mine, Soontir/TIE Phantom, specially over a span of consecutive games.

What I don't agree with is your notion that a new player bringing a turret will do better than an experienced player without one. An experienced pilot is prepared for any opponent, turret or otherwise, and I find it hard to believe that those experienced pilots would say "I only lost because that guy had a turret".

Seeing brand new players place high at Premier Events, due to them fielding turrets?

(new players as in, brand new and very unfamiliar with the rules)

Check!

Lol you can't be serious. Go over some of the regional results so you can see how the bottom is full of net listers that think the ships will do their work for them.

As is the top in some areas.

Your argument is?

I call BS. Show me where a brand new player has done well at a premier event.

I think at this point you're just arguing for the sake of it.

Discussion != arguing.

What I don't agree with is your notion that a new player bringing a turret will do better than an experienced player without one. An experienced pilot is prepared for any opponent, turret or otherwise, and I find it hard to believe that those experienced pilots would say "I only lost because that guy had a turret".

Experienced players should (and are) prepared, it still doesn't change the mechanics however.

Those (primarily) being the "tricks" that anyone can pull off with a 360 arc, an Engine Upgrade, an inbuilt passive offensive oriented ability (Han/RAC/Wookie /w Predator).

It isn't rocket science (hoho ) to figure out if you should boost or not, if it can clear you of one or more firing arcs.

I call BS. Show me where a brand new player has done well at a premier event.

I've seen it at the last three Regionals.

Name-calling isn't very classy good Sir. And I feel that it would be if I was to disclose their names, or details of those events.

Damaged ship is worth half point... problem solved.

Same here. Gettin' sick of being betrayed by bad dice roll series happening after you've done all to position yourself right, while the other guy just have to fly bank ones in general.

I have a hard time believing people lose to turrets that "float" or more or less move slowly to keep fire. They're only making your life easier at this point.

Best way to reduce their effectiveness when doing this is to block them. This can also make them spread damage. Crash your weak ships and make them shoot another target. All of a sudden target priority becomes an issue and they aren't getting any offensive/defensive actions.

I think at this point you're just arguing for the sake of it.

Discussion != arguing.

What I don't agree with is your notion that a new player bringing a turret will do better than an experienced player without one. An experienced pilot is prepared for any opponent, turret or otherwise, and I find it hard to believe that those experienced pilots would say "I only lost because that guy had a turret".

Experienced players should (and are) prepared, it still doesn't change the mechanics however.

Those (primarily) being the "tricks" that anyone can pull off with a 360 arc, an Engine Upgrade, an inbuilt passive offensive oriented ability (Han/RAC/Wookie /w Predator).

It isn't rocket science (hoho ) to figure out if you should boost or not, if it can clear you of one or more firing arcs.

I call BS. Show me where a brand new player has done well at a premier event.

I've seen it at the last three Regionals.

Name-calling isn't very classy good Sir. And I feel that it would be if I was to disclose their names, or details of those events.

You implicitly complained about subjectiveness, didn't you?

Anyway, I agree that a newcomer will do better with a PWT than otherwise, but a more experienced player will beat a newb much more often than not, no matter the squads. It takes skill to fly any squadron well.

Also, help elucidate me. You can see PWTs on top and PWTs on the bottom of championships all around, and you have seen a brand new player (at least one) take a turret to top whatevers in the last three regionals. If a brand new player can take them to the top 4/8/16, what would you call the ones on the bottom? Or do you attribute it to luck, basically?

You implicitly complained about subjectiveness, didn't you?

I did?

Or do you attribute it to luck, basically?

I attribute it to pairings first and foremost, dice and tactics / experience (the opponent's) second.

@mtrein:

Probability. The more players are to participate with an equally distinct build, the higher is the chance, that some of them make it to the top...!

Same here. Gettin' sick of being betrayed by bad dice roll series happening after you've done all to position yourself right, while the other guy just have to fly bank ones in general.

I have a hard time believing people lose to turrets that "float" or more or less move slowly to keep fire. They're only making your life easier at this point.

Best way to reduce their effectiveness when doing this is to block them. This can also make them spread damage. Crash your weak ships and make them shoot another target. All of a sudden target priority becomes an issue and they aren't getting any offensive/defensive actions.

Damaged ship is worth half point... problem solved.

Well, not really.

An interesting discussion was had about the very same a little while ago.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/180287-mov-house-rule-proposal-fixed-partial-point-system-with-graphs-showing-scale/

At least it should force FATs to sweat a little bit... not a perfect solution but still EVERYBODY SWEAT NOW !!

You implicitly complained about subjectiveness, didn't you?

I did?

Did I understand it wrong?

Or do you attribute it to luck, basically?

I attribute it to pairings first and foremost, dice and tactics / experience (the opponent's) second.

Obviously I need to change the way I interpret texts that I read.

What I don't agree with is your notion that a new player bringing a turret will do better than an experienced player without one. An experienced pilot is prepared for any opponent, turret or otherwise, and I find it hard to believe that those experienced pilots would say "I only lost because that guy had a turret".

Experienced players should (and are) prepared, it still doesn't change the mechanics however.

Those (primarily) being the "tricks" that anyone can pull off with a 360 arc, an Engine Upgrade, an inbuilt passive offensive oriented ability (Han/RAC/Wookie /w Predator).

You still see some oddball lists in the top placements every now and then. Those are the ones actively trying to show that the game is balanced, but most people are too lazy and just go with the meta than get creative with lists and practice them enough to compete.

The game is so popular now that this is unavoidable. But those actively searching for a turret fix will get the same result as those that cried for a phantom fix: you will still lose against them when facing a player that is better than you.

@mtrein:

Probability. The more players are to participate with an equally distinct build, the higher is the chance, that some of them make it to the top...!

I agree. But my point is that complaining about this is moot, and is very simple to solve. If an experienced player comes to a tournament with a PWT, use another and you will break it down to skill alone. Right?

A starting player with a PWT should not be a match to an experienced player with another squad. He may lose some times, but I would say that more times than not the experienced player will win. Do you think not?

And in casual play, well... Ask friends to use other squads. Or play with someone else. There are several things that can be done.

I'll reiterate my previous point.

Turrets aren't that only ships that have given new players success.

This Regional season I have read battle reports and heard of these squads doing well when played by new players:

BBBBZ

Dual IG88

Soontir/Deci

Fat Han

Panic Attack

Wave 4:

Whisper squads were dominating left and right, even new players for the hang of that ship right away

Previous seasons, these squads had tons of newer players net tournament wins:

Tie Swarm

Biggs Walks the Dog

Tie Swarm again

BBXX

New players winning is not an uncommon thing in X Wing. This, in fact, is one of the many appealing aspects about this game, and is what brings in a lot of new players. This is the result of many game aspects, some of which are:

1. Luck based game

2. A new player DOES NOT mean a bad player. Some players come new to the game with great skills to be successful.

3. Some squads are just really good and straight forward to play (Tie Swarm). There will probably always be squads like this.

Wave 3 I'm still pretty certain was way more easily won by new players. Ohio Regional last year I played a guy in Top 8 with a Tie Swarm. Prior to that day, he had played 3 games. I only won by 2 pts with my own Tie Swarm.

This meta, above all, is the most rewarding of player skill. There are more tactics to employ and many ships finally have optimal builds.

------------------

To finalize my point, a new player is not a bad player. Bad players are bad players in all games and are not likely to win no matter the tools you give them. New players can win if they are just good players.

------------------

You still see some oddball lists in the top placements every now and then. Those are the ones actively trying to show that the game is balanced, but most people are too lazy and just go with the meta than get creative with lists and practice them enough to compete.

Every year the World Series Of Poker has an amateur player or two on its final table. Generally speaking it's not because the amateur is less "lazy" than the pros or has hit on an approach to the game that's superior to poker's general styles of play - or "meta", if you will. It's because in a game with a significant element of chance, any halfway-decent player can have decent success in the short-ish term if the right amount of coinflips go their way.

I took PS6 Aggressors to the UK Nationals this year. Over 10 matches, I played against a total of eight large-base turret ships (1 Han, 2 Dash, 3 Chewie, 1 Fringer, 1 Leebo). None of those were bad players and I find the suggestion that they somehow made it easier on themselves by taking a turreted ship to be slightly bonkers.

Those (primarily) being the "tricks" that anyone can pull off with a 360 arc, an Engine Upgrade, an inbuilt passive offensive oriented ability (Han/RAC/Wookie /w Predator).

Experienced players are prepared for these mechanics. And instead of using the mechanics as an excuse, they optimize their list/tactics to counter it.

This is the correct answer. But also; players who seek to do well with those mechanics must optimise their tactics to counter those counters. That's the metagame, folks.

to add to the above, i took a swarm to two store champs on two consecutive days earlier in the year (at the height of the Deci/Phantom + Fat Han meta). over 13 matches, i played at least one large based turret in 11 of those games, and won all of them. i was using a split 7 Tie Swarm without Howlrunner, that i specifically built to combat the threats of both fat turrets and Phantoms. now before anyone says "these were only store champs, must have been all noobs", I bring this up specifically because two of the games were against Jesper, the above player who happens to be the UK national champ (did he mention that?). He was flying Fat Han at the time and there was literally nothing he could do to my swarm that day. large turrets are very strong, sure, but only against certain things. other match ups obliterate them, often in only a few turns. anyone who thinks they are easy mode needs their head examining.

to add to the above, i took a swarm to two store champs on two consecutive days earlier in the year (at the height of the Deci/Phantom + Fat Han meta). over 13 matches, i played at least one large based turret in 11 of those games, and won all of them. i was using a split 7 Tie Swarm without Howlrunner, that i specifically built to combat the threats of both fat turrets and Phantoms. now before anyone says "these were only store champs, must have been all noobs", I bring this up specifically because two of the games were against Jesper, the above player who happens to be the UK national champ (did he mention that?). He was flying Fat Han at the time and there was literally nothing he could do to my swarm that day. large turrets are very strong, sure, but only against certain things. other match ups obliterate them, often in only a few turns. anyone who thinks they are easy mode needs their head examining.

You were lucky. Seven times. Obviously.

to add to the above, i took a swarm to two store champs on two consecutive days earlier in the year (at the height of the Deci/Phantom + Fat Han meta). over 13 matches, i played at least one large based turret in 11 of those games, and won all of them. i was using a split 7 Tie Swarm without Howlrunner, that i specifically built to combat the threats of both fat turrets and Phantoms. now before anyone says "these were only store champs, must have been all noobs", I bring this up specifically because two of the games were against Jesper, the above player who happens to be the UK national champ (did he mention that?). He was flying Fat Han at the time and there was literally nothing he could do to my swarm that day. large turrets are very strong, sure, but only against certain things. other match ups obliterate them, often in only a few turns. anyone who thinks they are easy mode needs their head examining.

You were lucky. Seven times. Obviously.

Believe it or not, he's a very good swarm player, except against me.

I was being sarcastic