All of the distain for turret lists of late, their high population above the cut in tournements, and the increasing popularity of the game has left me t ponder the following:

Is it that turrets are out of balance with the game, or are they easier to fly well enough to compete by those who otherwise are not as skilled as someof the more experience players?

I compare this to a novice driver given a new Porche. They will do better with an automatic transmission, and drive faster than the rest of us driving camery's and minivans. However, an experience driver will do much better with a manual transmission (at least in the old days). A professional driver, in Ford Taurus, could prbably out pace a novice in a 911. Probably a pour analogy, but hopefully you can see what I am trying to express.

What we have seen is a reative explosion explosion in popularity of the game at the same time we have seen an explosion in Turrets. Sure, a number of the top players are using them, but they are not always winning.

I think for those who are scouring the statistics about how many turrets are in the top 8/winning tournements, it may provide some context by looking at how long those players have been playing X-wing or similar games. Similarly, you could contrast those data with the non-turret lists and their level of experience.

Just thinking...probably too much.

This subject has been debated (and eventually, argued) to death. Search through some previous topics. I don't think we need to have it again, if I'm honest.

It isn't turrets that are making the cut in high numbers, it's fat turrets that are making the cut.

There's a few reasons that these ships do well in tournaments that are more than just "low skill required":

1. High PS and boost/barrel roll make them great arc dodgers, offsetting their low Agility.

2. One 60 point ship works better with MoV than 5 12 point ships or 3 20 point ships do.

3. The builds that are popular tend to eliminate a lot of randomness which minimizes the impact of a string of unlucky rolls.

The big thing about the fat turrets is how they can pretty much arc dodge at will, especially with engine upgrade and high PS alongside the armament, and, yeah, the game gives a lot of mitigation options to ships with crew slots.

The secondary turrets are nowhere near as good, though, because they tend to come on weaker ships and cost points themselves- the blaster turret, the closest thing to a normal attack requires a focus to shoot which makes it a non starter outside hwks or maybe kavil. Even then if you go turret to turret with Han, you will lose.

I compare this to a novice driver given a new Porche. They will do better with an automatic transmission, and drive faster than the rest of us driving camery's and minivans. However, an experience driver will do much better with a manual transmission (at least in the old days). A professional driver, in Ford Taurus, could prbably out pace a novice in a 911. Probably a pour analogy, but hopefully you can see what I am trying to express.

I suspect that in reality a very good player can also do well with a fat PWT.

They are forgiving and easy to play defensively (resulting in same offense). Case closed.

This is also why i dont worry too much about super Dash. I know where he will be and when I lay firepower into him, he will die.

Turrets are not skill independent on the side of the user. They are balanced in gameplay terms by their horrible stat-cost ratio (though surprisingly not worse than a generic defender, so perhaps they're generously balanced) and should get demolished in a straight joust. Therefore, a straight joust has to be avoided and that will require skill.

PWTs are, however, far and away without a doubt the easiest and most forgiving ship to use in a competitive setting.

In a tournament, you have to mind two major things outside individual games: the mental strain of playing multiple back-to-back games and M.O.V

The fat PWT negates both of these considerations by

1.) allowing for effective 2-ship (smallest # of ships possible) and providing, without a doubt, the least involving ship to fly (have to worry about positioning like everyone else but, never have to worry about getting shots like everyone else; giving you far freer reign to move how you want largely without having to make difficult decisions). This greatly cuts down on the amount of brainwork you have to do from game to game, making it far easier to consistently perform well

2.) a baffling lack of partial scoring means that a 1 hull fattie awards no points, giving PWTs the luxury of having lady luck on their side. One bad roll from the enemy or one good roll from the fattie can end up determining the game, and to a far greater extent than an other existing ship because arced ships have instances where dice simply will not save them (such as when they simply don't have shots)

My personal hate for them is that they trivialize my (the non-PWT player's) input in the game by giving the dice the potential to swing things regardless of what I do. Unless the PWT is run aground an asteroid, it will shoot at any non-Arvel ship that can shoot it; constantly forcing unavoidable green dice at every round. Without thrusters, and sometimes even with, your outplaying the turret by bringing your arcs to bear will sometimes be rewarded by the turret outdamaging you. It is, ultimately, completely outside your control until AC advances get here.

You can easily arrange matters so you will be the victor statistically, but if rolls conformed to expected values we simply wouldn't bother with dice. The instances where dice carries games are relatively rare, but the fact that the potential is constantly present makes for some poor experiences where you're constantly worried less about how to play a given turn and more about how the dice could screw you.

By contrast, a ship such as soontir or corran can't afford to be thrust in the same situation. If either runs into a blocking proto-type, they are far more likely to get wiped out from full to 0 (whereas a YT or VT literally cannot be one rounded even by 5 A-wings) forcing them to maneuver around the blocking. Unlike turrets, they sacrifice shots when they maneuver defensively because they had the poor judgement to bring an arced ship into the engagement.

In order to secure a game where dice will not completely screw you, you basically have to fly very specific ships against PWTs. These ships are either auto-thruster aces (such as Soonts or Jakes or the IGs) who actually get rewarded for arc-dodging a turret or r2-d2 Corran Horn, who basically will never die 1v1 barring some hilariously awful luck. Coincidentally, Soonts and Corran and IGs are all incredibly popular at the moment.

Another interesting pilot is super Dash. Though he's dependent on horrible green dice, having a hyper modified HLC gives him a very steady win condition against PWTs (stay at range 3) which you only give up if the PWT outplays you (i.e, you were not able to use obstacles and the YT-2400's mobility to preserve your win condition, or your opponent's flying did not let you). Because Dash cannot shoot at range 1, you have a very strict set of objectives that will keep victory in the hands of your maneuvers and out of the hands of the dice. You cannot win a lucky dice-fest if you're not throwing any red dice

If PWTs functioned like the HLC outrider (i.e, had a place you could actually outmanuever to for useful gain), I'd have absolutely nothing to complain about.

Dash is the least skill intensive of any of them. You have Large ship barrel roll and boost, that doughnut hole means absolutely nothing unless you can get to PS 7+. A turret with phantom tier mobility is insane and so ridiculously game breaking I can't believe you only hate so called, 'PWTs'. If anything you should hate the out rider more since it denies a range 3 bonus to ships attacking it.

Dash is the least skill intensive of any of them. You have Large ship barrel roll and boost, that doughnut hole means absolutely nothing unless you can get to PS 7+. A turret with phantom tier mobility is insane and so ridiculously game breaking I can't believe you only hate so called, 'PWTs'. If anything you should hate the out rider more since it denies a range 3 bonus to ships attacking it.

I think people like the Outrider more because there's a clear way to counter it. In a vacuum, it can BR away from virtually anything -- but in a real game, you have to beware the board edge, asteroids, and other ships. SuperDash isn't ridiculously difficult to block, either, given that he has to perform green maneuvers most of the time, and if you stick a stress or two on him, he's toast.

@ficklegreendice

I think that's your best description of the issue to date! Haha. Now, I don't agree with the severity of the issue, but the points you bring up are all pretty spot on and all add up to the large representation of turrets, as players realize they can increase their chance of winning more easily than other squads (not that they actually give that much more % chance of winning, but that it is easier to get to the point where playing X Fat Turret will give you best possible wins for your skill level, instead of, say learning to play imp aces like a pro could take more time and dedication, though once you reach that max level of skill, you might end up getting just as many wins as X Fat Turret).

Is it that turrets are out of balance with the game, or are they easier to fly well enough to compete by those who otherwise are not as skilled as someof the more experience players?

I don't think they are easy enough for newer players to compete against those experienced. Newer players have a harder time determining distance, predicting opponents maneuvers (specially if unfamiliar with ship dial), and planning ahead with your maneuvers, which are all important, whether or not you're flying a turret.

Is a turret easier to fly for an experienced player? Maybe. It is more forgiving than say flying Soontir Fel or a TIE Phantom, with which in a long tourney one wrong move can ruin your entire day.

Inevitably this conversation is headed to a debate whether they're unbalanced due to MoV. I think the scoring system might need to be reviewed as I agree losing because you put 15/16 damage into a Decimator and time ran out can be frustrating, but until then, instead of looking for excuses, look for ways to alter your strategy so that you may win next time. Maybe you took too long for the first engagement, or you didn't concentrate fire, found yourself out of position too often. Maybe your list requires some tweaking to be more effective against turrets, etc. There are countless other reasons why you didn't win that match, and blaming it on a game mechanic is just a cop out. If you want to get better, you will have to face those challenges head on, that's the only way you'll improve.

@ficklegreendice

I think that's your best description of the issue to date! Haha. Now, I don't agree with the severity of the issue, but the points you bring up are all pretty spot on and all add up to the large representation of turrets, as players realize they can increase their chance of winning more easily than other squads (not that they actually give that much more % chance of winning, but that it is easier to get to the point where playing X Fat Turret will give you best possible wins for your skill level, instead of, say learning to play imp aces like a pro could take more time and dedication, though once you reach that max level of skill, you might end up getting just as many wins as X Fat Turret).

thanks

that post is the result of some very refined hate, brewed over a long period of time like a fine wine or tectonic pressure crushing coals into diamonds

come to fickle's vineyard, we have naught but the finest of tears

Yay! Another Turret thread! Whoop Whoop!

Seeing brand new players place high at Premier Events, due to them fielding turrets?

(new players as in, brand new and very unfamiliar with the rules)

Check!

Fat Hans and Fat Chewies forcing you to play their game/play the timer?

Check!

Engine Upgrades on RAC/Han ruining your day, unless you bring stress/Ion-lists?

Check!

Knowing that Wave 7 will do little to diminish this but still hoping that the Raider's upgrades will?

:D

Wave 7 will be an interesting thing

the cluter mines are a depressingly wimpy and flacid attempt to hit through 13/16 hull, but conner could do a number on PWTs even though, just like almost everything else it seems, it affects them less because they have much less to worry about

apart from AC Tempests, Redline also seems to make quite a lovely CM option. 6 dice ain't much, but you can roll a Plasma + CM + EM + FCS + AT Redline and 5 Academy pilots

finally, TLT only Y-wings. I'd fall into a deep depression if 4 TLT Y-wings didn't just bulldoze fat PWTs.

Seeing brand new players place high at Premier Events, due to them fielding turrets?

(new players as in, brand new and very unfamiliar with the rules)

Check!

I'm sorry, what? Where did this happen, and how many people were playing?

Seeing brand new players place high at Premier Events, due to them fielding turrets?

(new players as in, brand new and very unfamiliar with the rules)

Check!

Lol you can't be serious. Go over some of the regional results so you can see how the bottom is full of net listers that think the ships will do their work for them.

A huge factor, for me at least, is that playing turrets is simply less fatiguing. Partially it's because of the fewer number of ships, but partially it's just because I don't have to be as careful with a turret. With an arced ship, the offensive and defensive ramifications of a 2-bank as compared to a 2-straight are absolutely huge. With a turret (with Engine or BR), the ramifications are usually trivial.

It's not that there aren't hard maneuver decisions to make with turrets, but IMO they definitely come much, much less often.

Add up that much less worry over a long 6+ round day, and it's major.

Also, let us not forget that Tie Swarms used to allow new players to win events, due mostly to there not being much game play besides jousting. Even Soontir Fel had a rough time in that meta where one block could spell his doom, and there were always 10+ ships on the board to get in his way.

A huge factor, for me at least, is that playing turrets is simply less fatiguing. Partially it's because of the fewer number of ships, but partially it's just because I don't have to be as careful with a turret. With an arced ship, the offensive and defensive ramifications of a 2-bank as compared to a 2-straight are absolutely huge. With a turret (with Engine or BR), the ramifications are usually trivial.

It's not that there aren't hard maneuver decisions to make with turrets, but IMO they definitely come much, much less often.

Add up that much less worry over a long 6+ round day, and it's major.

Can't really disagree at all with this. Next time, if things don't change, I'll be bringing a Fat Han or the like. Unfortunately, in the current meta, it's the only way to compete in tourneys these days and, if FFG doesn't do something, will be for the foreseeable future.

Same here. Gettin' sick of being betrayed by bad dice roll series happening after you've done all to position yourself right, while the other guys "just have to fly bank ones in general".

Knowing that Wave 7 will do little to diminish this but still hoping that the Raider's upgrades will?

The only way Tempest Squadron swarms in general, and Cluster Missile Tempest swarms in particular, could be any more pure turret hate is if they could run Autothrusters.

The Punisher can have Cluster Missiles, Extra Munitions, and Autothrusters - might that make it a good anti-turret ship, or is its low Evade and lack of Barrel Roll going to limit its ability in that role?

Seeing brand new players place high at Premier Events, due to them fielding turrets?

(new players as in, brand new and very unfamiliar with the rules)

Check!

Lol you can't be serious. Go over some of the regional results so you can see how the bottom is full of net listers that think the ships will do their work for them.

As is the top in some areas.

Your argument is?

_{I think that the combination of lower fatigue over the course of several games during the day on top of the being very easy on MOV is why Fat turrets are so popular.}

_{Making a small mistake with Han or Chiraneau is not NEARLY as crippling as making that same small mistake with any arc-dodging small ship.}

_{And even the very best of players are bound to make small mistakes, especially after playing several (often taxing) games...}