Look what I wrote below amid the Second Thoughts for Ingold (near the top of the page).

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/181558-reaction-series-wastes-of-eriador/

Of course, the designer had thought of it before, it just feels "interesting" to have an idea for a card, and then see it coming: less then a fortnight apart.

By the way, I had thought the attachment could be a bit cheaper but I think it is about right. If you play it early, or with a discount, the cost should pay off eventually. However, I do think you need a specific deck to make Sword-thain effective: just as those mentioned in the article or on the forum. Igold himself can get a little stronger with it.

Yeah and I've seen something similar to sword thain discussed elsewhere on this forum as an idea but I kinda just brushed it off my shoulder because I thought the logistics of it would cause too many odd exceptions and I still do. There have already been so many questions asked about whether or not something works in relation to that card. I love the idea and the possibilities of opens up, but I'm not convinced that it has gotten all the links worked out. There may be quite a bit of FAQ dedicated to this card.

Yeah, I wonder.

Right now, I believe it will be sorted quickly, but I see where the concerns are coming from.

Does this new hero get a threat cost? Is it zero? Does the sphere of influence become a resource icon? Is it a printed resource icon?

Yeah, the threat cost is a very good question. The card could have addressed it right away. The icon for sure, and yes, it is printed since it was printed on the ally.

Does this new hero get a threat cost? Is it zero? Does the sphere of influence become a resource icon? Is it a printed resource icon?

By default I would assume it's 0, they may rule his threat cost to be a regular cost though. But until ruled otherwise - it's zero.

Yes, it's clear from the article that turned ally is considered to have printed resource icon of his sphere.

Yeah, probably safe to assume that it's zero. We can kind of treat it as an X case, an unknown variable, where the variable is not given a value, then it's zero. I realize that this is not exactly the same case, but I think the logic applies.

Yeah I think it's 0 as well. What happens when you give Sword Thain to an ally that was brought into play via Sneak Attack? Probably doesn't leave play, but these types of interactions aren't super clear and I forsee more of these popping up.

Threat cost only matters at the start of the game anyway, unless you use The Fall of Gil-Galad.

@^: On the contrary, I'm pretty sure they would still leave play., simply because it would be ridiculous if they didn't. And ridiculous things pretty much only happen in this game when they're negative for the players.

Threat cost only matters at the start of the game anyway, unless you use The Fall of Gil-Galad.

@^: On the contrary, I'm pretty sure they would still leave play., simply because it would be ridiculous if they didn't. And ridiculous things pretty much only happen in this game when they're negative for the players.

I'm wondering at what point after the character is discarded or destroyed it goes from hero back to ally. If something like Landroval works to resurrect him, it will definitely not be a hero anymore when it gets back, but that is still a decent-sized if. I think Landroval's ability would trigger from the hero being destroyed, but I don't think he'd be able to bring the character back, since it says "put that hero back into play" which means it would currently be out of play which means it is no longer a hero so I don't think it would qualify as "that hero" anymore.

This is all just speculation on my part at this point, but it shows the kinds of issues this card brings up. If it is a legit target at the beginning of the effect, will it always remain so throughout the rest of the effect despite changing card types in the middle?

Threat cost only matters at the start of the game anyway, unless you use The Fall of Gil-Galad.

@^: On the contrary, I'm pretty sure they would still leave play., simply because it would be ridiculous if they didn't. And ridiculous things pretty much only happen in this game when they're negative for the players.

Threat cost also matters when encounter effects work based off threat cost. Also Sneak Attack specifies "ally" still needs to be in play and then bring "ally" back to hand.

I'm wondering at what point after the character is discarded or destroyed it goes from hero back to ally. If something like Landroval works to resurrect him, it will definitely not be a hero anymore when it gets back, but that is still a decent-sized if. I think Landroval's ability would trigger from the hero being destroyed, but I don't think he'd be able to bring the character back, since it says "put that hero back into play" which means it would currently be out of play which means it is no longer a hero so I don't think it would qualify as "that hero" anymore.

This is all just speculation on my part at this point, but it shows the kinds of issues this card brings up. If it is a legit target at the beginning of the effect, will it always remain so throughout the rest of the effect despite changing card types in the middle?

Yeah, there is a lot of wierd cases with that card.

The thing is, it is fun. The designer are not playing safe. Thankfuly this is not a competitive game, because if we were that card would be a pain.

If the designer only play safe, we get a lot of boring and safe cards. I agree that if a fan came up with that idea, I would probable argue that card would have a lot of problems, and it has. Still, I like it exist.

My problem now it is too costly to be good, but game balance is not the topic here, i think.

I sent some questions to Caleb regarding this card. I forgot the sneak attack one though, which actually is kind of puzzling. I know for a fact Landroval doesn't work, because when the ally turned hero is destroyed, it immediately becomes an ally again, so it can't trigger Landroval's response.

Well let us know what you hear back from him.

Doesn't seem too complicated for me : an ally becomes a Hero, collects ressources and get get targeted by cards specifically for heroes, like Unexpected Courage, fast Hitch, Resourceful, or can boost other heroes as well, like tactics Merry, etc.

The new hero/ally can also be targeted by Condition cards or damage, and so forth. I'm sure there will be amazing stuff to be done with this card! And cards like Tome of Atanatar become free to play with 4 heroes!!

And when the hero/ally dies, as usual, the attachment is discarded and the ally, who is not a hero anymore.

I just got an answer. Sneak attack allies do not return to your hand, as they're not an ally anymore. I'll post the official answer when I get home.

So you could sneak attack Gimli or Legolas ally during the planning phase and then play Sword Thain on them and they would then stay in play. Thats a pretty goddamn good combo!!!!! They already cost 4 so instead of 4 tactics/leadership resources to get a badass ally out you can pay 1 leadership resource and 4 neutral resources (1 more resource but 4 of the 5 are neutral) to get the same said badass ally out and turn them into a hero that then generates a resource of his own each turn as well as any other benefits (hero only attachments, events, readying etc). That is some insanely good value right there.

Even more so with Beorn! 1 leadership and 4 neutral resources instead of 6 tactics resources (so actually cheaper!) to play him and turn him into a Hero.

Did you ask about ally Beorn? Might not be the same ruling as Sneak Attack specifically states: " At the end of the phase, if that ally is still in play, return it to your hand."

Note it says if that ALLY is still in play and technically that ally is not still in play as it is now a hero whereas ally Beorn states: "At the end of the phase in which you trigger this effect, shuffle Beorn back into your deck".

The card simply refers to itself so I imagine the golden rule would kick in and although heroes cannot be shuffled into your deck/hand like Lost and Alone this would be superseded by the text on Beorn ally (now beorn hero!) and he would return back to your deck.

I did. It's the golden rule. I can post that too when I get home and have access to my emails.

Sword Thane(any eligible lore ally) +Aragorn(lore) +Mirlonde?

So here's all the questions I asked for those curious or wanting exact wording:

Hey Caleb, one more question about Sword-Thain: if you were to put an ally into play during your planning phase, and then play Sword-Thain on it, would it still return to your hand at the end of the phase, since Sneak Attack specifies "if that ALLY is still in play return it to your hand?"

Great question. If you use Sneak Attack to put an enemy into play, and then play Sword-thain on that ally, that ally would not be returned to your hand at the end of the phase because it would no longer be an ally.
Cheers,
Caleb

Hello! So I was just reading on the forums about the newly spoiled Sword-Thain card, and a question came up about what happens when the ally become hero has card text that refers to returning them to a player's hand or deck, as heroes cannot do this. For example, is ally Beorn able to use his ability and not get shuffled back into the player's deck?

The Golden Rule for the game requires that a hero Beorn must be returned to your hand if you trigger his Action while Sword Thain attached. The text on the card still super-cedes the rules for the game.

Cheers,
Caleb

In a similar vein, how does Landroval work with this new card? If it is placed on him, I wouldn't think he could activate his ability if he were destroyed, but if another ally with this attachment is destroyed, can Landroval save them? Or have they already lost the hero distinction and been rendered an invalid target?

Landroval’s Response triggers “After a hero card is destroyed…” An ally with Sword-thain attached will lose the hero card type after it is destroyed and Sword-thain is discarded. That means at the moment Landroval can trigger his effect, the ally would no longer be a valid target.

Also Mirlonde's ability wouldn't do anything to the threat cost of the ally with Sword-Thain on it, since its threat cost is 0 and it cannot be lowered below that. Returning to starting threat with Aragorn would still be back to 18.

I think the Mirlonde and Aragorn question was obvious -- once we established that the threat cost is 0.

Good to hear about Sneak Attack. It gives it another good combo (and the Thain).

Oh, full disclaimer, I did not ask that one to Caleb, there's just no doubt in my mind that's how it works.

As I read the rules, during the planning phase players take turns playing out allies and attachments. THEN there is an action window when events can be played. So strictly speaking I don't see how the Sneak Attack can be played before Sword Thain.

Nah, green windows mean before, during and after you're able to take actions. Events are only limited to those. If it worked how you described, you couldn't play Steward of Gondor, activate it, and then use those resources to pay for allies or attachments that turn, for example.

Yes, this has been addressed already for the quest phase. People had originally thought there would be no time to commit the Sneaked ally to the quest.

Of course... I need more sleep.