Fair point Ruvion, thanks. I am now squarely back on the fence again so I have submitted a rules question to get a definitive answer.

I got evens on both answers, blowed if I know!

Kevin.

Well, at least we all agree on one thing, we should send this question on to Nate. I'm happy to defer judgement until he tells us I'm right.

EDIT: spelling

Incidentally, Ruvion makes some good points and comes close to convincing me, though not quite.

The entire damage phase could have been reduced to one step, "Damage Resolution", with Toughness and other effects simply reducing damage at that step. The fact that the game mechanics do NOT work that way means that there are effects meant to be played in between, and Stubborn Refusal is one of them.

Hurdoc, I do not think the important issue is whether someone is right or not. For example, Eric Lang, Nate French, and co. may decide to change their original ruling, whichever it may be, to favor my interpretation of the rules, as mentioned by dormouse in a previous post. The concern now is, which direction will FFG take this game to? I hope for all concerned that it is a decision which result in positive gaming experience for all involved.

Hurdoc said:

One of the problems with combining assigning and applying damage into one step is this: If attacker goes first, as it is now, then defender would have some or all of his units dead before he has a chance to retaliate.

So, its official and I have to eat some 'humble pie' e-mail from Nate French Follows....

Hi Kevin,

After the "Assign damage" step, the damage is not yet on the unit, and
therefore not yet eligible for Stubborn Refusal.

Once you move on to the "apply damage" step, If the applied damage is
enough to destroy the unit, the unit will be destroyed before any
actions can be taken.

This means that Stubborn Refusal cannot be used to prevent terminal
damage. It can move damage off of an already wounded unit that is
still in play. (A Mountain Brigade that is alive with 5 damage on it,
for example.)

Nate French
Game Design and Development
Fantasy Flight Games

Oh and many thanks to Nate for such a super quick responce!

Kevin.

Absolutely. Nice to see the designers are on board.

Good to get an answer on this either way.

Thanks a lot Nate:)

kevinsmith121 said:

I will also partake of said humble pie. It tastes quite yummy.

I just got the game last night and, looking at Disciple of Khaine (I think thats the card if I remember correctly), there are cards that specifically refer to moving assigned damage away, so Stubborn Refusal is more of a healing type card. I should know better to argue with Dormouse...

posted before reading second and third pages.

ps. so this card is just useless now.

Not useless. Not as strong as I had initially thought but after actually playing the game last night, rather than shooting my mouth off, I could see where it could be useful.

Penek said:

Any time one of your units survives a combat with minimal hit points left, play this card to restore your unit to full health and probably finish off an enemy. Given the number of Dwarf units with toughness I'd say it's far from useless. Plus of course Mountain Brigade (6 hit points) as mentioned by Nate, your opponent's going to have to do well to finish them off in a single combat. Even the Bloodthirster would need help.

It's sort of like Toughness and Counterstrike rolled into one.. not too shabby!

I'm glad Nate decided to come down on the side of the camp I was a part of. ^^;

Hurdoc said:

Hurdoc, you started the antogonizing and condescending tone. Don't complain when someone returns it. You drop it so will I, as of the rest of this post.

Assign and Applied are not the same thing in the English language. In the military you can be assigned to a base, but that does not mean you are at that base or even in the vicinity of that base. You will shortly be or are in route to that base. I can assign you a task but you may not yet have applied yourself to that task.

The reasoning that it has to work your way because otherwise there is no reason for the split phase is an assumption on your part. I already demonstrated that there are cards that work in this section which don't cause any problems with the rules, and I demonstrated how this card can be used to prevent a unit from being killed within this timing structure and rules interpretation. You don't like it fine. You don't agree with it fine... but I actually have not voiced an opinion on how I want it to work, I've simply stated what the rules seem to clearly say.

Which brings me to my next two points.

1) The section about assigning and applying damage have been quoted to show how this interpretation is supported by the rules. Pointing out there is an action window for you to do things does not equal quoting the rules to support your position.

2) I'm not going to apologize for thinking you are wrong if Nate says you are correct. I will affirm that you sussed out the meaning behind the cards that Eric and he created and the rules as Eric envisioned them. This is inspite of the fact that there is nothing in the rules which actively support this position. Similar to the Questing unit being removed from the Quest but NOT from he play area. The rules did not support any interpretation of removing the resources accumulated, though it was a reasonable assumption, the logical one even. And despite my arguing against it, as not being supported in the rules, it was the ruling I personally thought was best for the game.

Seems to me that Stubborn Refusal is still a very nice card.

Most of the dwarf units have multiple hit points. Especially early, it's quite reasonable to think that they can take hits without dying, which Refusal can then bounce to your opponent's units. There's also nothing that says it has to happen in the middle of combat - King Kazador could be sitting with 5 damage tokens when you draw the Refusal, and BAM! Full health and probably a dead opposing unit.

Also note the lack of limitation on which units you can use it on. You can shift damage points around your opponent as well, combining spread-out damage to kill something he's trying to keep alive. The damage transfer also ignores defenses like Toughness, and can smack Counterstrike cards with far less risk.

The tactic may not be usable to save a unit immediately, but I see a lot of flexibility in it.

dormouse said:

Wow, now you're just being annoying. If you read my above posts, I've already talked about eating humble pie. I also mentioned about "shooting my mouth off" and that I shouldn't argue with Dormouse. My recommendation would be to quit caffeine.

I apologize for my tone, you're correct, it was inappropriate. I will admit to feeling good about being the better man about the whole issue, however.

Nonono. I have to apologize. My computer was going through some weirdness connection issues (was posting from a plane, I've been in Thailand for the last 16 days) and I couldn't read any of the later pages. That post should not have been written in that manner after the further develoment of the thread (which I could not access). So it was my social faux pas there and I apologize whole-heartedly.

We do have our answer and that is the important thing, not who is right or wrong, who eats humble pie or who gets to gloat. None of that stuff is important. Clarity of the rules is important, and I'm sorry for my part in continuing a non-productive tone in hat should be a productive thread.

For what its worth, Dormouse, I value your opinion highly. Many other questions (including some of mine) you have always answered with solid evidence and objectivity. I didn't have the game in front of me when this thread started, and only after receiving it and looking at the cards in detail (Disciple of Khaine, for example) did I realize that I was wrong. I shouldn't have jumped the gun.

Although my forces of Chaos would totally stomp you...