The manual says this: "as hero cards cannot move to a player’s hand or deck." (pg 20 under Hit Points and Damage)

Maybe this means you cannot trigger any effect that would move the card with Sword-Thain back into your hand or deck. Or you could trigger it, but the part of the effect that would move the hero would just fail.

If this is correct, that would mean...

-Can't use Landroval's ability (the cost is to return him to your hand)

-Put Spirit Bofur into play via his Quest Action, then somehow manage to get Sword-Thain onto him (Vilya) and he will stay in play regardless of quest outcome

-Put an expensive ally into play via Sneak Attack or a dwarf via To Me! O My Kinsfolk!, then give them Sword-Thain and they will remain in play. Or Gwaihir's Response could accomplish the same thing for Landroval. Very nice for ally Beorn because then....

-Trigger ally Beorn's action without having to shuffle him into your deck

Wouldn't the new hero be unable to spend resources on non-neutral cards since it doesn't gain a resource icon of any sphere? Allies have sphere of influence icons (core set pg 8) and not resource icons. Clearly the intent of the card is to have the hero gain a resource icon since they describe using it in the article but it doesn't seem to actually state that a resource icon is gained

The article uses the Theoden as an example of effect that would benefit from turning somebody into the hero, so it's safe to assume that turned heroes not just have a resource icon - they have a printed resource icon.

The manual says this: "as hero cards cannot move to a player’s hand or deck." (pg 20 under Hit Points and Damage)

Maybe this means you cannot trigger any effect that would move the card with Sword-Thain back into your hand or deck. Or you could trigger it, but the part of the effect that would move the hero would just fail.

If this is correct, that would mean...

-Can't use Landroval's ability (the cost is to return him to your hand)

-Put Spirit Bofur into play via his Quest Action, then somehow manage to get Sword-Thain onto him (Vilya) and he will stay in play regardless of quest outcome

-Put an expensive ally into play via Sneak Attack or a dwarf via To Me! O My Kinsfolk!, then give them Sword-Thain and they will remain in play. Or Gwaihir's Response could accomplish the same thing for Landroval. Very nice for ally Beorn because then....

-Trigger ally Beorn's action without having to shuffle him into your deck

10 resources for a 1/8/3/6 hero? I'm in!

I am personally most excited about that: "Spirit Song that recalls the lay of Beren and Lúthien to encourage stronger alliances between the region's Dúnedain and Noldor."

The reclaiming of Silmaril by those two is one of the most iconic moments in all LotR lore and estranging of Elves and Men is one of the saddest things. So a card that reminds of the last alliance and that in the beginning those two races fought together is thematic gem and I cannot wait to build "forces of the north" decks to build around it.

Omg! Freaking amazing. A whole new Middle-Earth just opened!

Weatherstained cloak looks interesting and the Lay of Beren and Luthien does too.

Sword-thain. W.t.f. Brok will finally become a hero. Gimli ally, legolas ally, boromir ally, Beorn ally, Quickbeam ally. So many great possibilities. UC, Self-preservation, a lot of weapons etc. Two new slots for your restricted cards. Awesome stuff. Sadly they made Hobbit Gandalf and Treebeard and Radagast unavailable.

Just for the sake of the question, would ally Gandalf still leave play at the end of the rround? Because you apparantly can trigger Beorn without shuffling him back.

The last pack looks downright epic! The encounter art, especially on possession and dwimmerlaik (awesome name too!!!), is just amazing and the few player cards we've seen are great. Sword-thain is super interesting and opens up many new combos or strategies. I for one am looking forward to putting it on ally Legolas allowing you to put more than just a Rivendell Blade on him weapon wise and turning him into an epic slayer drawing you many cards whilst slaying! There are definitely better or more complex uses for it however such as Beorn ally listed above. Tale of Tinuviel sounds epic and for anyone using decks that feature a mix of Noldor and Dunedain heroes or allies could be a really great card! That tactics Dunedain ally looks great and in multiplayer if the most combat dedicated player is using them they could have as high as 3 or 4 attack quite regularly. Having Ranged, the Ranger trait and 3 hitpoints are all very nice as well. Heir of Valandil could see you playing this ally for free or at least just 1 if you are engaged with 3 or 3 enemies respectively. Weather Stained Cloak looks like it could be really great even at 0 cost. It is limit 1 per character and must be attached to a ranger character. Maybe it can be discarded to cancel a shadow effect just revealed? Perhaps it stops the attached character from taking damage from encounter card effects? Similar to Star Broach but stops nasty treacheries that do direct damages to all questing, exhausted or whatever characters. I'm really curious to see what this card and the Tale of Tinuviel card do!
The quest sounds really great and the reanimated mechanic is very clever. Sounds like it will be pretty **** hard though. Even the encounter icon is super badass!!

As for the quest - yeah, I'm glad they have finally used that long forgotten orc sentry from the tower mechanic from the Escape from the Dol Guldur. And also improved it (now, they actually have a trait).

With the Boromir Ally if you put Sword Thain on him you can put Gondorian Shield on him putting him on 3 defense instead of 1 or a whopping 5 if his ability kicks in! Chuck an unexpected courage on him or always put archery/treachery damage on him and he would be a bit of a beast in combat providing great defense and 3 attack. Also the extra tactics resource obviously.

This pack looks fun. Sword-Thain can be game-changing in the right deck, but I remain unconvinced e.g. Beorn's ability can be triggered if you don't go through with shuffling him back. Will be interesting to see a ruling on this.

edit: Because if this is actually the case, there is no way I won't run him and 3x Sword-Thain in a Vilya deck.

Well, shuffling him back into the deck is not a cost, so he is going to get that +5 attack no doubt. Dunno how they're going to handle shuffling into the deck part.

Manual says that heroes can't go into the decks or hands, but we have:

And remember that golden rule? Card text always trumpts rulebook. So, unfortunately, I think Beorn ally-hero will actually go back into the player deck.

Which text would be in Weatherstained cloak? ^^

My vote for: Exhaust Weatherstained cloak to draw a card after you engage an enemy.

I feel like Weatherstained Cloak is going to protect the wearer from the treacheries or something.

I also think that Beorn ally/hero would be discarded after trigerring his efect. Would be nice to know the official answer.

Weatherstained Cloak? Action: Exhaust Weatherstained Cloak to choose 1 non-unique enemy in staging area. Players ignore that enemy during engagement checks.

I am personally most excited about that: "Spirit Song that recalls the lay of Beren and Lúthien to encourage stronger alliances between the region's Dúnedain and Noldor."

The reclaiming of Silmaril by those two is one of the most iconic moments in all LotR lore and estranging of Elves and Men is one of the saddest things. So a card that reminds of the last alliance and that in the beginning those two races fought together is thematic gem and I cannot wait to build "forces of the north" decks to build around it.

Other than that, I'm excited for that unique leadership weapon! Andúril maybe? They said it works with Gondor and Dúnedain.

Anduril wouldn't make sense outside of the LotR saga, because in the regular timeline of the game the sword is still broken.

On the Sword-Thain discussion, I'm pretty sure any effect that would cause the new hero to leave play would still go off, and thus discard Sword-Thain.

The odd question I'm wondering about now is: if you attach Sword-Thain to a unique Dwarf, who then leaves play, can you put Brok Ironfist into play for free or not? Does it still count as a Dwarf hero leaving play if they stop being a hero when they leave play?

Straight Shot will have some nice target practice in this quest.

It seems to me that when the hero-ally dies Sword Thain falls off and then both cards go to the normal discard pile because the hero-ally is simply an ally again.

PocketWraith - you are right about Anduril not making sense in the time frame of the game, but that's true of so many cards we already have.

You're probably right about Anduril, but I still hope we'll see it at some point. Probably the weapon in the pack will be a generic "Sword of the West" or something like that.

And remember that golden rule? Card text always trumpts rulebook. So, unfortunately, I think Beorn ally-hero will actually go back into the player deck.

I think you're right and it will end up being that Sword-Thain heroes can go into your hand/deck as per usual. I keep thinking about it though, and then I think of Will of the West. If it was as simple as the golden rule, Will of the West would move a discarded hero into your deck. And you could use cards like Dwarven Tomb or Ered Nimrais Prospector to move a discarded hero into your hand or deck (dunno why you would want to do this). Will of the West is the real problem, because you move the entire discard pile. I do not think it is supposed to move a hero.... because they ignore effects that move heroes to hands/decks.

If we observe that, then Sword-Thain also can't move heroes to hand/deck. But neither could Lost and Alone, and we know that one can, so..... it's a circle. Either I'm missing something, or we have no way to explain why Will of the West wouldn't move heroes to your deck, while Lost and Alone can.

And remember that golden rule? Card text always trumpts rulebook. So, unfortunately, I think Beorn ally-hero will actually go back into the player deck.

Either I'm missing something, or we have no way to explain why Will of the West wouldn't move heroes to your deck, while Lost and Alone can.

I think you are looking for this, on p20 or the rulebook:

When resolving effects that move cards from a player’s discard pile to his hand or deck, hero cards in the discard pile are ignored, as hero cards cannot move to a player’s hand or deck.

Yeah that's what I quoted earlier in the thread, but the "cannot" part at the end would see to suggest that Lost and Alone shouldn't work.

The Golden Rule applies when there is a direct contradiction between the rulebook and the card. This happens with Lost and Alone, so you ignore the rulebook and follow the text on the card. However with WotW there is no contradiction, as the rulebook specifies what happens when an effect would shuffle a hero in the discard pile back into the deck. So it is possible to resolve both effects without contradiction.

Similar to how Legolas (Core) works. If Legolas kills an enemy it says to put 2 progress on the current quest. However the rulebook says progress must be placed on an active location before being placed on the quest. This is not a contradiction, because the rulebook explains what to do if such an effect would place progress on the current quest while there is an active location (it is placed on the active location instead). So it is possible to resolve both effects without contradiction.

If Legolas said "Place 2 progress on the current quest, bypassing the active location" then the Golden Rule would apply.

If WotW said, "Shuffle your discard pile, including heroes, back into your deck" then the Golden Rule would apply.

And by that logic, if a hero card said, "shuffle this card into your deck" you would follow what the card says. Thus Beorn would be shuffled into your deck.

OK, thanks!