Why do people keep claiming there is a choice?

I want to use influence to avoid a fight.

Roll black pips

Well yay I'm going to have to be evil to avoid a fight..

Why do people keep insisting that using a dark pip is evil? The force is a living entity with it's own direction and unfathomable goals. Roll some light pips and it just happens to be going your way. Roll some dark pips and the force is heading left but you push it to go right with a bit of effort (strain) and a bit of moral conflict by working against the natural flow of the force.

Jedi fall to the darkside by constantly trying to dominate the force and eventually everything else by extension. But that takes a long time of working against the natural flow of the force.

There is no control of a person's thoughts and feelings through the dice, but there are choices. What your character does with those choices is up to you.

That's how I interpret the rules and my view of the force so YMMV.

Well...

The other way of looking at it...

I want to use influence to avoid this fight.

I roll all dark pips...

I can A: Realize bending other's minds to my will is wrong... (influence fails)

or B: Dominate their minds for my own convenience. (flip pips)

It seems you are really looking at this issue in absolute terms of black and white only, all the while claiming there is no grey in sight...

I see the issue of dark and light side point usage and the "Jedi code" thing as an ideal that cannot be lived up to, by anyone. It is like every religion, anywhere, ever in that it dictates rules and guidelines that are impossible to follow and are downright abhorent in certain contexts.

Being a 'bad' Christian, for instance, means that you do not break the 10 commandments, meaning that "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness" and "Thou Shalt not Covet", for instance, are absolute.

Thus this means remaining "a good christian" is virtually impossible to uphold these comandments since lying is considered polite in some instances, necessary in others, and preferable the truth in many moral cases. The same goes for covetting, you cannot control that which you long for. It is one thing not to act on it, it is an other the forbide a thought.

Yet we would not go around telling peole they are not acting like good Christians for working on the sabbath, eating shellfish, wearing polycotton, telling theit kid that their pet rabbit is now in 'bunny heaven' or thinking about Scarlett Johansen every once in a while. No one can be that rigid and since religions (and I consider the Jedi Order exactly that) are a man-made inventin they are inherently flawed.

Approaching this system with that mindset I can see the ideal, I can see the design of the system perfectly working with that ideal and I can see how people have difficulty working with it.

I myself think it is quite elegant and easy to work with but I try to look at it from a mortal's focal point and not that of an extremist.

So what your saying is your cool with the dice dictating the morality of your character.

You don't mind playing a lightside campaign where due to some bad rolls everyone is all darkside and angsty?

Or playing a darkside campaign where suddenly despite everything the players do are paragons of the lightside?

Dude, if you were projecting any harder I could use you as a spotlight.

Isn't the point of the force that it is a living breathing thing that runs through everything? I feel that the inherent 'danger', 'angst' and 'darkness' are part of what you are tapping into and the ability to not let your character succumb to it but utilizing it in their benefit without going overboard is what makes being a jedi interesting.

Well...

The other way of looking at it...

I want to use influence to avoid this fight.

I roll all dark pips...

I can A: Realize bending other's minds to my will is wrong... (influence fails)

or B: Dominate their minds for my own convenience. (flip pips)

Your logic fails, though, because the same could be said if you rolled all Light Side results.

You can A: Realize bending other's minds to your will is wrong... (chose to fail).

or B: Dominate their minds for your convenience.

The LS/DS results on the die have nothing to do with what you're doing: you're still using the Force to dominate someone else's mind.

-EF

So what your saying is your cool with the dice dictating the morality of your character.

You don't mind playing a lightside campaign where due to some bad rolls everyone is all darkside and angsty?

Or playing a darkside campaign where suddenly despite everything the players do are paragons of the lightside?

What really gets me is how often players accept the dice dictating a character's fate through being shot, intimidated, seduced, etc. and they're fine with it. That's "just part of the game". I've yet to have a player say, "I know Vader got a 180 on that crit, but dying isn't what my character would do", or the like. I can't see why Conflict, which is even more of a choice than being hit with a critical, would make anybody feel in less control of their destiny. Black pips are really just another symbol asking to be used in a cool, narrative way.

Well said, Alderaan Crumbs. Well said.

What really gets me is how often players accept the dice dictating a character's fate through being shot, intimidated, seduced, etc. and they're fine with it. That's "just part of the game". I've yet to have a player say, "I know Vader got a 180 on that crit, but dying isn't what my character would do" or the like. I can't see why Conflict, which is even more of a choice than being hit with a critical, would make anybody feel in less control of their destiny. Black pips are really just another symbol asking to be used in a cool, narrative way.

This. Absolutely, 100%, triple-distilled this.

…

What really gets me is how often players accept the dice dictating a character's fate through being shot, intimidated, seduced, etc. and they're fine with it. That's "just part of the game". I've yet to have a player say, "I know Vader got a 180 on that crit, but dying isn't what my character would do" or the like. I can't see why Conflict, which is even more of a choice than being hit with a critical, would make anybody feel in less control of their destiny. Black pips are really just another symbol asking to be used in a cool, narrative way.

QFT.

-EF

Why do people keep claiming there is a choice?

I want to use influence to avoid a fight.

Roll black pips

Well yay I'm going to have to be evil to avoid a fight..

Does that even make sense?

There is no choice its dice determining my morality when my Characters motivations were pure.

I use a few dark side activations, which were totally saintly in motivation saving people, avoiding conflicts, healing injured people you know being Darth Jesus. Then I totally roll a one on my morality die at the end of the Session. Well I guess my adherence to the jedi code and generally being a nice guy is rewarded by falling towards the dark side, because saving kittens from trees and stuff is totally evil due to me happening to roll black dice while using force powers...

I love me some ROLL playing.

That is not at all how it works.

The dark pips are used to represent a particular flow of the force - you're having a hard time utilizing it this time, for whatever reason (read: ROLE play) just like you fail to shoot someone but "something good happens" when you roll attack dice (you get advantage). <-- ALSO Role Play.

So, you're trying to do a thing, and instead of it coming easy and natural, this time for whatever reason, it's a bit more difficult - so you role play why that is. You're distracted, you considered failure, etc. And maybe you take a conflict point, that's up to the GM. And so, at the end of the session, you have 1, maybe 2 conflict points. Possibly 3. And you roll a 1. Oh, no, you shifted down a couple of points because it was a difficult time to use the force. Next session, no black pips and no conflict, and you roll a 5. You go up a few points. It all balances out. And it's all due to role playing your character.

It's not "Oh, no, I'm trying to save my friend, I have to use the evil, now I'm all darksided." It just doesn't work that way.

Why do people keep insisting that using a dark pip is evil?

Because originally it was going to be, go back and look at the descriptions in earlier books. FFG was (understandably) concerned that force use would be unbalancing, so pip flipping (and other things) was supposed to be bad as a way of restricting force use. In the end, the strain and Dpoint penalty, combined with the general expense of force ratings and powers, is largely offsetting that so it's not as big a deal as originally expected, and FFG backed off that in favor of addressing more important things.

Short version: There's a lot of old memories about how the force/light/dark "should work" based on the EU and previous systems, and with F&D being assumed to be the "Jedi book" we're seeing the arrival of a lot of people that skipped out previous cores, don't see the relationship to Duty and Obligation, and merely expect Morality to be another take on Darkside points...which it isn't. They're just so indoctrinated to think it is they can't help but get upset before they even have a chance to see it isn't.

Long version:

So here we are...The shock of a new core, combined with new people arriving, and the expectation of systems past and we've got all kinds of fuss over an easily adjusted secondary mechanic. The simple truth is that we'll be seeing this one again and again. Some may bring up a good point, adjustment, or new use, but largely it'll just be complaining about some nebulous perception of alignment, and little to do with the actual impact on the game. People don't see "+2 Strain and a Dpoint" they just see "LIGHTSIDE PARAGON!" get visions of a party of Yodas dancing in their head, and their brains shut down.

Thank you Alderaan Crumbs

The darkside pips present you with a choice. Nothing more nothing less. You can flip the destiny take the strain and do the thing you wanted or you can do something else. My character is at 95 morality. I am there because I actively work at being lightside in my choices and when i roll darkside pips I think about it. Some times i use them sometimes i don't. When I use them I tend to end up around 3 or 4 conflict at most. Then I roll the D10 usually I still go up. Sometimes I go down. But for the most part my morality is decided by my actions. Not by my die rolls.

snip

Oh I get it. Just being rhetorical in a desperate hope to get people thinking.

Thank you Alderaan Crumbs

You're welcome. Thank you, as well? I'm glad it resonated with some people.

Seems to be a common theme in multiple threads of late.

Seems to be a common theme in multiple threads of late.

Hey, this is gaming. Nothing is more serious than this!

Well...

The other way of looking at it...

I want to use influence to avoid this fight.

I roll all dark pips...

I can A: Realize bending other's minds to my will is wrong... (influence fails)

or B: Dominate their minds for my own convenience. (flip pips)

Your logic fails, though, because the same could be said if you rolled all Light Side results.

You can A: Realize bending other's minds to your will is wrong... (chose to fail).

or B: Dominate their minds for your convenience.

The LS/DS results on the die have nothing to do with what you're doing: you're still using the Force to dominate someone else's mind.

-EF

I'm more using the pips to decide if that particular influencing of another's mind is A: Wrong or B: A justified application of the Force. The mind trick is too common for it to be considered always Dark Side. The die decides if that fight was worth avoiding through Influence, or if that fight should by bypassed some other way.

Well...

The other way of looking at it...

I want to use influence to avoid this fight.

I roll all dark pips...

I can A: Realize bending other's minds to my will is wrong... (influence fails)

or B: Dominate their minds for my own convenience. (flip pips)

Your logic fails, though, because the same could be said if you rolled all Light Side results.

You can A: Realize bending other's minds to your will is wrong... (chose to fail).

or B: Dominate their minds for your convenience.

The LS/DS results on the die have nothing to do with what you're doing: you're still using the Force to dominate someone else's mind.

-EF

I'm more using the pips to decide if that particular influencing of another's mind is A: Wrong or B: A justified application of the Force. The mind trick is too common for it to be considered always Dark Side. The die decides if that fight was worth avoiding through Influence, or if that fight should by bypassed some other way.

Depends actually on the situation. The thing with influence is it's one of those talent that in essence robs a degree of free will from the target, but it's up to the situation whether that use is overly probibative.

Use it to gamble/influence trades? Probably at least 1 conflict because it's being used to cheat them out of something they should rightfully own. Arguebly money matters little to the force, but making someone's position worse actively should be arguebly treated as theft.

To ease ones nerves or improve a situation? That should be Zero conflict since argubly your smoothing over the the cracks to get everyone around it.

Outright decieving someone? Depends. Sometimes deception can be used to ones benifit.

As for the die; depends. Sometimes like wild animals one needs to be subdued at any cost. Though that being said, influence is meant to supliment talking checks rather then be ran isolated from them. Sometimes the force doesn't work where the right words, the right leverage, would.

I'm more using the pips to decide if that particular influencing of another's mind is A: Wrong or B: A justified application of the Force. The mind trick is too common for it to be considered always Dark Side. The die decides if that fight was worth avoiding through Influence, or if that fight should by bypassed some other way.

And the next minute it might be just fine. Careful, you'll get a bad case of moral whiplash...

Well...

The other way of looking at it...

I want to use influence to avoid this fight.

I roll all dark pips...

I can A: Realize bending other's minds to my will is wrong... (influence fails)

or B: Dominate their minds for my own convenience. (flip pips)

Your logic fails, though, because the same could be said if you rolled all Light Side results.

You can A: Realize bending other's minds to your will is wrong... (chose to fail).

or B: Dominate their minds for your convenience.

The LS/DS results on the die have nothing to do with what you're doing: you're still using the Force to dominate someone else's mind.

-EF

I'm more using the pips to decide if that particular influencing of another's mind is A: Wrong or B: A justified application of the Force. The mind trick is too common for it to be considered always Dark Side. The die decides if that fight was worth avoiding through Influence, or if that fight should by bypassed some other way.

And again, that's not what the die is indicating. It's not deciding if the use of a talent is warranted, it's describing your state of mind/flow of the force during your use of that talent. You could be influencing someone for the wrong reason but be perfectly clear while doing it - conflict point. You could be influencing them for the right reasons but have trouble connecting to the place inside you which believes that - use of destiny point and dark pips, but no conflict, or very low conflict. Or, you could be doing it for the right reasons and be perfectly clear on it - no conflict, or be doing it for the wrong reasons and know it's wrong - LOTS of conflict. In fact, use of the talent is very dependent upon context, and using dark pips is just one way for the GM to decide if you get the conflict or not.

I usually don't bother explaining it. If asked, I would stress that black pips mean your character is in a negative headspace, or else maybe the Force isn't with you and you're trying to, erm, force it.

Most players wouldn't worry too much about it. That the dark side is pervasive and subtle is pretty well understood in the universe.

Well...

The other way of looking at it...

I want to use influence to avoid this fight.

I roll all dark pips...

I can A: Realize bending other's minds to my will is wrong... (influence fails)

or B: Dominate their minds for my own convenience. (flip pips)

......

I'm more using the pips to decide if that particular influencing of another's mind is A: Wrong or B: A justified application of the Force. The mind trick is too common for it to be considered always Dark Side. The die decides if that fight was worth avoiding through Influence, or if that fight should by bypassed some other way.

The Influence power actually incorporates whether or not the pips used or LS or DS in the Special Rule section which says that spending DS pips results in dark side emotions in the target (e.g., fear) and spending LS pips results in light side emotions in the target (e.g., tranquility).

You seem to ONLY want to use the force die results to be interpreted as a cooly calculated and conscious decision the character makes with each roll. And that's valid and the system supports this fully. But it's not the ONLY way to do it. The way you continually present using force powers is that the character tries to do something, time stops and they have omniscience of the success or failure of the attempt and get to philosophically mull over the consequences of whether or not to do so (again with full knowledge of success or failure) using DS pips or it's somehow the Will of the Force manifesting itself in the dice result. This is a narrative system and the mechanics support interesting choices (even after the roll when using force powers) and the feel of the pull of the dark side etc but the "result" and the meaning of what happened is up to player/GM interpretation and a narrative explanation. You can play the game you seem to want to but the system wasn't built to force others to do it that way.

What it means when a player does or doesn't use DS pips is up to a wide degree of interpretation and players and GMs are free to go with whatever fits the scene, the action, and the characters involved. With the exception of some specific uses of force powers (like Influence), the meaning of what using a DS means (and the resulting Conflict) is not determined at all by the mechanics or the fluff. It's completely left up to the players.

Why did your character gain Conflict (and use DS pips) when using Force Power X? What does it even mean to spend a DS point when using Force Power X? These are all questions left unanswered by the mechanics. These are narrative questions left up to the player because that's the point of the game.

The Morality system also considers the action itself as the biggest factor in whether or not something is evil or good.

Using Influence and spending DS to fill a guard with fear to get them to abandon their post is using the dark side and will lead the PC a little closer to the dark side.

But doing so when trying to smuggle a bunch of slaves to freedom and preventing that guard from activating the alarm or explosive collars on the slaves likely makes such a thing worth it.

This doesn't mean that a good GM and player cannot introduce some internal conflict within the PC at having used the dark side to do something that was overall good. This can be an interesting character moment and choice (but the system doesn't support the notion that this puts the PC on the verge of falling to the dark side).

Same for your typical example of whether or not to spend DS points to save another character with Move. Spending the DS is moving closer to the dark side. Letting your friend die moves you much closer than just spending a DS point (though, I will note that, again the narrative aspect of the game can actually work here in your favor as you can easily narrate the result as the PC being unable to pull off Move and looks on in horror as their friend falls to their death, but you typically present this as the PC refusing to save a friend and not merely failing to do so).

And I think the setting supports this view - Anakin slaughtered an entire villiage of sand people purely in anger and hatred (his mother already dead so it served no good purpose) and yet this didn't cause him to fall to the dark side. Push him much closer? Sure. But there's a lot of play there for a reason - it makes for a more interesting story.

Maybe you find it more interesting or true to the setting to run it differently and that's fine - you can do so by tweaking the system (like say, quadrupling every Conflict gain) but the Morality system (at least as written in the beta) doesn't make this the general case.