A few thoughts on why I think TIE Defenders are good ships

By Biophysical, in X-Wing

There’s a lot of hate and a lot of love for TIE Defenders. There’s also been a lot of talk recently thanks to the official revealing of the Mk2 Engines, and hopefully a lot more people trying these ships out. It’s no secret that a lot of love for the Defenders comes from my direction, so I thought I’d share what I find good about the TIE Defender in hopes that people trying them out might have somewhere to start from when they’re trying to figure the ship out for themselves. Finally, I tend to fly Defenders armed almost always with HLCs. The following thoughts will be most applicable to that sort of Defender, perhaps also Defenders with control cannons will find this useful, and maybe even Defenders flying with Primaries only could find some of this relevant. Some of the following are observations, some are tactics, some are just anecdotes from experiences I’ve had playing TIE Defenders.

So, here’s why I think the TIE Defender is good:

-Lots of power in a small footprint: The TIE Defender has excellent attack and defense for a small-based ship. I’ve seen it referred to as a large ship on a small base. This is particularly true with an HLC armed variant. The small size has a couple of significant impacts. First, it lets you concentrate power into a smaller area, creating a smaller target for your opponent’s ships to acquire an arc on. Second, it lets you have power in areas that larger ships might be denied, such as asteroid fields. You can leverage this with good asteroid placement. Despite the odd dial, I love an extensive, but loose asteroid field in the middle of the board. It forces formations to break up and it denies a lot of areas to large ships, while leaving your Defenders fairly free to maneuver if you’re careful.

-Low relative PS premium: An HLC armed Delta squadron pilot costs 37 points, upgrading that to PS8 in the form of Rexler Brath costs another 7 points. That additional 7 points is the same 7 points a that a Rookie Pilot pays to upgrade to Luke Skywalker, except it is a much more substantial upgrade on a TIE/D, because the Defender is carrying substantially more attacking and defending power. Some will argue than 37 points is already too much, and that 7 points just makes it more expensive. I say that each point of PS upgrade costs the same that it does on a lesser ship, but is worth more because the capabilities of the base ship are greater. Additionally, the named pilots do not appear to pay the customary 1-point premium for their abilities. I think even a 2-point upgrade to Onyx Squadron Pilots might have a lot of value. It gets you above the PS1 and 2 swarms, which is useful for arc dodging and killing them before they can shoot, and it also brings you out of the double-reroll for Predator.

-High AGI combined with high hit points: 6 Hit point behind 3 AGI is roughly 2 TIE fighters (actually a little worse). That’s the common argument against a TIE Defender’s durability. This is true, but somewhat misleading. For one, a TIE Fighter is typically flown at close range to maximize its attacks or block, and this puts it close range of more ships. A cannon armed Defender fights from longer range as much as possible. Its attack power is not diminished, and its defensive power is substantially increased, particularly against multiple weaker attacks. This is particularly noticeable against common filler ships from all factions that have only a pair of red dice. While 2 red dice are perfectly good at plinking away hit points on most large ships, they are often insufficient to reliably damage an AGI 3 ship, especially at long range. This allows an interesting targeting dynamic to take place. Low attack support ships are easier to ignore early on, allowing the TIE Defender to focus on higher priority targets. In contrast, many large ships or heavy fighter-like ships like highly upgraded B-wings suffer more from these numerous small attacks, and are punished more severely for ignoring them in favor of a main target.

It’s also important to note that the shielding of a Defender makes arc dodging less of a requirement. An aggressive player can press an attack, deliver significant damage, get unlucky on defense, and have the Defender alive at the end of the turn.

Finally, a Defender’s AGI and HP are not defending one, or even 2 or 3 low PS 2-dice attacks, they’re defending a high PS cannon shot. Obviously, this puts them firmly on the Glass Cannon side of that spectrum, but the durability they have is meaningful. TIE/lns are worn down at close range, often before they get to fire for a turn, whereas a TIE Defender is firing at long range, and is hitting at full power until the last hit point drops.

-All turns are available, even if 1- and 2-turns are red. The 3-turn can get you a lot of places you need to be, but sometimes you need that short, sharp little 1-turn to avoid an asteroid or stall your movement while some other ship whizzes by. In those cases, the 1-turn is something the Defender has in its back pocket. I end up using it about once every other game, I think, but when I use it, it’s great.

-Slow and fast moves: The TIE Defender has slower moves in the form of a 1-bank and 2-straight, and fast moves in the form of 4- and 5-straights and 3-turns and 3-banks. This range is useful for how the cannon-armed Defender fights. On the approach, 1-banks allow slow movement with a limited adjustment of firing arc. This is an especially handy move in a cluttered asteroid field. Combined with Barrel Roll, the 1-bank becomes very important on the initial approach turns. It lets you stall movement and effectively drift left or right, allowing you to put asteroids in the way of the Defender and formations of more efficient ships. The faster moves become important when ships get closer as the Defender transitions from a cannon run and attempts to dodge arcs and disengage before K-turning. The fast straights are also useful in a joust, as they can potentially move the TIE/D past a dense enemy formation to avoid getting blocked and hammered at short range with no action.

-White K-turn: The TIE Defender’s claim to fame is almost certainly the white K-turn. It is widely suspected that its high cost (relative to raw power) is due to this ability. There are a few levels to the utility of this maneuver. The most obvious utility is that you can K-turn and still get an action. That’s worth something, generally either extra damage to the target or reduced damage to the TIE Defender because of a Focus held to boost defense. You can also take risky K-turns. If you think you might get blocked, but don’t mind the place you’d end up if you are, you can K-turn anyway. There’s no stress cost, so you aren’t crippled and out of position next turn. Furthermore, you can perform the maneuver and have your full dial available to you on the next turn. Few ships, even ones that can get an action before the K-turn via Advanced Sensors can say that. You can K-turn while stressed, which is worth a lot against control lists. Most ships are in really bad shape if they get double-stress hammered by a Stressbot Warthog. The Defender can just K-turn behind it and kill it at leisure. You can also K-turn repeatedly over several turns. This has a lot of utility in close engagements and enhances your ability to increase dwell time in a particular region of the board, such as when you want to let another ship advance for a turn to build some distance between the Defender and the target. Finally, and perhaps most interestingly, you can threaten to K-turn. The mere presence of a “free” K-turn means there’s a whole new area you can attack from (and attack from at full combat power). Often the opposing squad must cover this K-turn or find themselves in a very bad position, opening up disengagement options that give you an advantage in later rounds.

-TIE Defenders are well balanced: The three broad categories usually used to describe ships in X-wing are Jousters, Arc Dodgers, and Turrets, with the general rule that Jousters beat Turrets, Turrets beat Arc Dodgers, and Arc Dodgers beat Jousters. TIE Defenders have a little bit of all of these functionalities.

As Jousters, they aren’t very efficient, but they do have strong stats. High Attack values (generally from Cannon slot upgrades) and high AGI values, combined with a high HP total mean that while they might not have raw efficiency on their side, they do require a lot of work to kill, and they’ll be doing serious damage until their last Damage Card is dealt. The high stat value combination has other advantages, as well. The high Attack (namely with HLC-equipped Defenders) allows them to overcome high defenses in ways that multiple weaker attacks could not. The high Defense value gives greater resistance to multiple low strength, but high efficiency attacks, allowing the Defender to focus on more threatening elements. The decent hit point total gives some resistance to very powerful attacks and Gunner-like effects. Letting a point of damage through is just part of a TIE Defender’s day, whereas many other AGI 3 ships must resist damage as much as possible. Consequently, this lets them focus their admittedly less efficient killing power on the most threatening targets, while limiting the effectiveness of other parts of an opposing list.

As Arc Dodgers, Defenders don’t typically have multiple actions and Boost, but they do have a fast dial, small base, and Barrel Roll. The fast dial combined with the small base means massed high-efficiency Jousters have a harder time predicting the TIE Defender’s final location and bringing multiple arcs to bear at optimal ranges. Barrel Roll gives you a chance to dodge an arc as an action, often while keeping your firing arc pointed at the Jouster.

As Turrets… well, let’s face it, they aren’t Turrets, they do have some of the advantages of Turrets, though. An equipped cannon upgrade allows them a larger section of the board where they have maximum effect, and the K-turn allows them to switch the direction of their firing arc and movement without penalty. These aspects combined dovetail with certain advantages of Turrets, in that Turrets can attack from any direction. Defenders can’t do that in a single turn, but they can easily switch their direction of attack from turn to turn. The large effective range also makes it more difficult for Arc Dodgers to escape their shots, and the white K-turn makes it difficult for Arc Dodgers to gain a positional advantage on them. The wiliest Soontir Fel can go from a great position to a crummy one in the space of a white K-turn.

Well, those are some initial thoughts. I encourage anyone interested in playing TIE Defenders to try them out in practice for a couple games before trying them against any serious competition. The positions a TIE Defender wants to be are so very often different from other ships. This is mainly due to the odd dial, and once you get used to it, you start to see opportunities in all kinds of interesting places.

Slightly more than a few :lol: :lol:

Few people can see the true beauty and power of the Defender, and it's nice to see somebody capitalize it, and take it to the regionals.

Slightly more than a few :lol: :lol:

Few people can see the true beauty and power of the Defender, and it's nice to see somebody capitalize it, and take it to the regionals.

I figured I'd get more clicks than I'd labeled it "Wall of text about the TIE Defender". ;)

TL;DR?

TIE DEFENDERS ROCK BABY!!!

TIE_Defender_SotG.jpg

It's not that the defender is a bad ship. The problem is that other ships that cost less are more effective against a wider range of opponents. If Fel and Whisper didn't exist Rexlar would be pretty popular. Even now a competent player can go pretty far with a defender/decimator list. But they'll probably go farther with Fel.

Once Fel or Whisper are against a pair of generics they've pretty much won the game. Rexlar can kind of dodge some arcs, but nowhere near as reliably as Fel. And late-game Rexlar really can't hold up to late-game Corran or Fel 1v1. He's not awful like a rookie, but he is not top-tier.

The problem is that other ships that cost less are more effective against a wider range of opponents.

You could say pretty much the same thing for any ship which isn't an Academy TIE.

If Fel and Whisper didn't exist Rexlar would be pretty popular. Even now a competent player can go pretty far with a defender/decimator list. But they'll probably go farther with Fel.

The obvious solution here is to put Fel in a TIE Defender.

Fel and Stele for TIE Defender aces! Make it happen FFG!

Brath plus Lone Wolf plus HLC equals love

It's not that the defender is a bad ship. The problem is that other ships that cost less are more effective against a wider range of opponents. If Fel and Whisper didn't exist Rexlar would be pretty popular. Even now a competent player can go pretty far with a defender/decimator list. But they'll probably go farther with Fel.

Once Fel or Whisper are against a pair of generics they've pretty much won the game. Rexlar can kind of dodge some arcs, but nowhere near as reliably as Fel. And late-game Rexlar really can't hold up to late-game Corran or Fel 1v1. He's not awful like a rookie, but he is not top-tier.

I'm not really sure you're right here on Rexler (or Vessery with the proper EPT) vs Fel or Corran. I think vs Corran, it gets to be almost a draw. It's pretty easy for the Defender to get behind him, and do a lot of zero net damage turns that nevertheless require Corran to keep spending actions/moves on regenerating and evading. That does require the Defender to make a of right moves to keep Corran in his sights, though. Fel is actually a matchup I don't mind with either of the Defenders in my Regional list. Fel has a hard time setting up free shots against them because anytime he gets in a good position they just flip around with the white K and he's got to be evasive or gamble. Defenders don't need to trade 1:1 shots with him, they can go 2:1 and still be okay because they have more hit points and their offense is pretty huge compared to his with the HLC and Predator/Lone Wolf. Time is also on the Defender's side in timed matches, because they cost more (sometimes 12+ points more), so Fel has to kill for the win, forcing him to expose himself to take more shots.

But eventually Corran will get full shields and k turn. And he will do a little damage. And then he'll get his shields back up and he will do it again. Rexlar's only chance there is some extremely unlikely math results.

There aren't many closers that Corran has to fear, but Rexlar is definitely not one of them. The ships are pretty similar in cost and stats. But Corran has regen, fcs and the evade action. If Rex wins that something has gone wrong. It CAN happen, but it really shouldn't.

I think deci/Rexlar might be an even match with Fel/deci. Fel is just more reliable against a wider array.

Truthfully Fel is kind of the best ship in the game right now so that doesn't necessarily mean Rexlar is awful or anything.

To me, the primary weakness of the Defender is the relative unreliability of green dice, especially if you don't have a focus token. I've had many games swing because I couldn't roll evades to literally save my pilot's life. It's one of the things I loved about your Regional list: the use of Lone Wolf helped mitigate that unreliability.

It's also one of the reasons why I'm excited for the appearance of Emperor Palpatine. I will preach it to the heavens: he is the Defender "fix" people have been waiting for. He gives them offensive and defensive reliability, even if they spent their action on a Barrel Roll.

Slightly more than a few :lol: :lol:

Few people can see the true beauty and power of the Defender, and it's nice to see somebody capitalize it, and take it to the regionals.

I figured I'd get more clicks than I'd labeled it "Wall of text about the TIE Defender". ;)

what better way to defend a defender :P?

Biophysical, nice one!

Being a big fan of the Defender, let me just add that especially the generic Tie/Ds are awesome in epic games. They really benefit from a target-rich environment and inflict a lot of damage.

Normally, I take 3 HLC Deltas + Jonus to escort my imperial CR90. Keeping the CR90 at "cheap" 107 points allows for an extra Bounty Hunter plus two Academies for blocking.

-----------------------------

DELTA FORCE

300 points

CR90 Corvette (Fore) (63)

CR90 Corvette (50), Weapons Engineer (3), Quad Laser Cannons (6), Sensor Team (4)

CR90 Corvette (Aft) (44)

CR90 Corvette (40), Tibanna Gas Supplies (4)

Delta Squadron Pilot (37) x 3

TIE Defender (30), Heavy Laser Cannon (7)

Captain Jonus (22)

Bounty Hunter (36)

Firespray-31 (33), Recon Specialist (3)

Academy Pilot (12) x 2

But eventually Corran will get full shields and k turn. And he will do a little damage. And then he'll get his shields back up and he will do it again. Rexlar's only chance there is some extremely unlikely math results.

There aren't many closers that Corran has to fear, but Rexlar is definitely not one of them. The ships are pretty similar in cost and stats. But Corran has regen, fcs and the evade action. If Rex wins that something has gone wrong. It CAN happen, but it really shouldn't.

I think deci/Rexlar might be an even match with Fel/deci. Fel is just more reliable against a wider array.

Truthfully Fel is kind of the best ship in the game right now so that doesn't necessarily mean Rexlar is awful or anything.

Yeah, that's why I think Corran ends up being a draw most of the time. IF the Defender gets in a good position, neither can reliably damage each other very fast. Given the option, I usually try to kill Corran first so it doesn't come down to that.

The nice thing with Deci-Rex is that you can take Vader to hose down Fels. Rex doesn't care a lot about Vader compared to how Fel feels about him.

I agree there's no shame in being not as good as Fel, and I agree that Fel and Rex are better at different things, but don't sell short the kind of offense that the Defender can bring with an HLC that has re-rolls from an EPT. Against a lot of targets, you're doing double the damage that Fel is.

To me, the primary weakness of the Defender is the relative unreliability of green dice, especially if you don't have a focus token. I've had many games swing because I couldn't roll evades to literally save my pilot's life. It's one of the things I loved about your Regional list: the use of Lone Wolf helped mitigate that unreliability.

It's also one of the reasons why I'm excited for the appearance of Emperor Palpatine. I will preach it to the heavens: he is the Defender "fix" people have been waiting for. He gives them offensive and defensive reliability, even if they spent their action on a Barrel Roll.

Lone Wolf, if you can trigger it, is just incredible on Defenders.

One other note on that white K-turn:

While its tremendously powerful, you still need to be careful in how you use it. If there's what looks like an obvious shot to do a white K-turn, but your opponent can block it, you may as well assume its going to be blocked.

With that in mind, look at the rest of your moves. If you still do the K-turn, can your opponent set up a lot of range 1 shots against you? If so, assume they are going to do that. Are there any moves you can make that will punish them for trying to block the K-turn without setting yourself up to massive return fire? If not, can you execute another maneuver that will disengage you from the battle and free you for an unblocked K-turn in the next round?

This kind of thinking applies to all ships, but folks tend to forget about it with the Defender because there's no obvious penalty for it. However, getting nailed without an action is actually a pretty big penalty, and you have a better chance for victory if you minimize the amount of free shots you give your opponent.

Edited by PhantomFO

I've found that banking when k turning is obvious really throws people and can have you end up behind them.

Ships can't be predictable only the people flying them.

I think they're pretty awesome.

When I flew as wingman to Darth Vader, I was able to quickly disable the shuttle carrying the Emperor and destroy the decoy shuttles as well as the defected TIE Avengers easily and rescue the Emperor from Zaarin's forces, saving the Empire! I was a hero!

Got a medal at a ceremony and everything.

:P

I took this photo with my old cell phone, bad quality

SteleAward2.jpg

Edited by Explosive Ewok

One other note on that white K-turn:

While its tremendously powerful, you still need to be careful in how you use it. If there's what looks like an obvious shot to do a white K-turn, but your opponent can block it, you may as well assume its going to be blocked.

With that in mind, look at the rest of your moves. If you still do the K-turn, can your opponent set up a lot of range 1 shots against you? If so, assume they are going to do that. Are there any moves you can make that will punish them for trying to block the K-turn without setting yourself up to massive return fire? If not, can you execute another maneuver that will disengage you from the battle and free you for an unblocked K-turn in the next round?

This kind of thinking applies to all ships, but folks tend to forget about it with the Defender because there's no obvious penalty for it. However, getting nailed without an action is actually a pretty big penalty, and you have a better chance for victory if you minimize the amount of free shots you give your opponent.

Exactly. This is what I was trying to get at when I said that you can "threaten to K-turn". The price for your opponent of not blocking the K-turn is so much worse than for a regular ship, that you can use that potential position as bait.

Biophysical, that is an excellent summary. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! You make me want to fly a Double D squad. It was an interesting read because I usually fly generics. I kept trying to compare matchups and consider how an extra 3-dice gun compares to having only two 4-dice guns. Have you flown many triple defenders? I have, and they are really interesting because I never seem to have a close match -- it's a landslide one way or the other. I can't wait to try out the 3x Onyx+TIE MK. II, but I'm sure going to miss my Ion Cannons.

A craft with only 3 attack dice probably wants to get to range 1 to maximize it's damage, but only for a kill-shot i.e., it doesn't want return fire. With low-PS defenders, you can't risk the close-range engagement because you WILL be taking fire first. Dodging arcs is great, which makes the PS 3 Onyx seem like a better deal than the Delta, but I really like being able to hold my focus for defense, and then, if I haven't spent it, I am free to spend it on offense when I fire. So many trade-offs!

Great write up on the Defender. Even though I felt like the Defender was too expensive when it first came out, I liked how it played, and how durable it was. It really is a tough ship, so I felt like I got my points worth out of it. The problem was/is that the Phantom and now Fel have out shined the defender. Their popularity blinded people to the quality of the Defender. I'm a fan of Major Jugglers math wing Jousting values, but one thing that gets lost with those stats is how those ships perform inside a squad. The Defenders Jousting values aren't great, so I think they get over looked because of that. Squads are more then just a bunch of individual ships. Vessery gains a lot by who you pair him with. I haven't figured out Brath yet, but I've always had good luck with Vessery. The red turns on the Defender I think turned a lot of people off from them. They aren't an easy ships to figure out. You have to put some work into flying them to get the most out of them.

I'm a huge fan of the defender classic in which you're fighting one ship so you just ram them full speed then k turn. If they don't k turn, free shots. If they do k turn, you have actions still so it's still good.

I'm a huge fan of the defender classic in which you're fighting one ship so you just ram them full speed then k turn. If they don't k turn, free shots. If they do k turn, you have actions still so it's still good.

The absolute best is when you're close and you both K-turn, so you get the action advantage, then you K-turn again to get behind them and they're stuck going forward to clear stress.

Regarding 3 vs 2 Defenders, I haven't done it. 3 primary attacks is a considerable firepower downgrade compared to 2 re-rolling HLC attacks, except at Range 1, an area I usually try to avoid. You have more hit points, certainly, but I'm not sure of the best way to leverage that advantage.

Great write up on the Defender. Even though I felt like the Defender was too expensive when it first came out, I liked how it played, and how durable it was. It really is a tough ship, so I felt like I got my points worth out of it. The problem was/is that the Phantom and now Fel have out shined the defender. Their popularity blinded people to the quality of the Defender. I'm a fan of Major Jugglers math wing Jousting values, but one thing that gets lost with those stats is how those ships perform inside a squad. The Defenders Jousting values aren't great, so I think they get over looked because of that. Squads are more then just a bunch of individual ships. Vessery gains a lot by who you pair him with. I haven't figured out Brath yet, but I've always had good luck with Vessery. The red turns on the Defender I think turned a lot of people off from them. They aren't an easy ships to figure out. You have to put some work into flying them to get the most out of them.

If Brath and Vessary swapped pilot abilities, I think you'd see them all the time. Brath really benefits from a set-up ship to strip shields before he fires, and Vessary loves it when he had a chance to shoot before his wingmen have had a chance to spend their target locks.