I think the list doesn't have as many neat tricks, and only gets to use basic play skills to win, so it either isn't as fun, or it doesn't have a built-in tactic that it can use to help win some matchups. Some squads can get outplayed and still win due to some mechanic that makes the matchup easier (stress, turret, arc dodging), Swarms cannot do that, and ONLY get to use the basics.

Also, when you start playing squads with tons of attack action modifiers, playing "classic" squads suddenly feels "unreliable". With no easy way to stack up Rerolls + Focus (besides spending rounds setting up TL), it can be a pain when attack dice aren't average to above average.

I think people are just gravitating more to reliability more than anything, and BBBBZ sometimes fails in that department.

This is a much nicer way of stating that normal ship builds have been completely outshined by broken 2 ship power builds that promote nuanceless game play and losing in the list building phase situations. Matches end up being determined by single upgrade cards like whether or not someone has VI to move after Dash or if someone has gunner deci Vader and you brought Fel, or a single lucky evade roll prevents an opponent from getting SIXTY points. You end up with situations where Corran skates by on one health and then your 48 points of TIE Fighters have lost the game right then.

There also used to be measured PS bids. Is everyone flying Academies? I'm going to fly Rookies and blues. Everyone is flying PS 2 rebels? I'm going to fly Obsidians, etc. Now PS bidding is in this annoying binary situation where it matters tremendously if you can outbid your opponent while simultaneously not mattering at all if you're flying normal ships as it's 100% a waste of points to bid for low-mid PS unless you really want to shut down predator.

Why don't you just play Wave 1-2 or Core set exclusively then?

There isn't some ideal way to play X-Wing. The metagame changes. I was bored to tears of 4 ship lists and swarms by the end of wave 3.

I think the list doesn't have as many neat tricks, and only gets to use basic play skills to win, so it either isn't as fun, or it doesn't have a built-in tactic that it can use to help win some matchups. Some squads can get outplayed and still win due to some mechanic that makes the matchup easier (stress, turret, arc dodging), Swarms cannot do that, and ONLY get to use the basics.

Also, when you start playing squads with tons of attack action modifiers, playing "classic" squads suddenly feels "unreliable". With no easy way to stack up Rerolls + Focus (besides spending rounds setting up TL), it can be a pain when attack dice aren't average to above average.

I think people are just gravitating more to reliability more than anything, and BBBBZ sometimes fails in that department.

This is a much nicer way of stating that normal ship builds have been completely outshined by broken 2 ship power builds that promote nuanceless game play and losing in the list building phase situations. Matches end up being determined by single upgrade cards like whether or not someone has VI to move after Dash or if someone has gunner deci Vader and you brought Fel, or a single lucky evade roll prevents an opponent from getting SIXTY points. You end up with situations where Corran skates by on one health and then your 48 points of TIE Fighters have lost the game right then.

There also used to be measured PS bids. Is everyone flying Academies? I'm going to fly Rookies and blues. Everyone is flying PS 2 rebels? I'm going to fly Obsidians, etc. Now PS bidding is in this annoying binary situation where it matters tremendously if you can outbid your opponent while simultaneously not mattering at all if you're flying normal ships as it's 100% a waste of points to bid for low-mid PS unless you really want to shut down predator.

Why don't you just play Wave 1-2 or Core set exclusively then?

There isn't some ideal way to play X-Wing. The metagame changes. I was bored to tears of 4 ship lists and swarms by the end of wave 3.

I normally play conventional lists, it's my opponents that fly obnoxious Turretwing lists, more often than not I have to face one of those as opposed to a normal list where maneuvers actually matter. Also, there are post wave 3 ships and upgrades I like a lot, most new ships are normal non-game breaking ones, it's the handful of broken ships and upgrade combos like gunner FCS or the Super Phantom or wave 5 that I don't like.

I got into this game just as wave 4 came out. For a while I got to play against conventional lists before everyone caught on to the Phantom and then turrets. I miss maneuvers mattering and ships not always having TL + Focus + 4 dice gunner. It seemed like every list had a decent chance and it came down to flying ability as opposed to list building.

The only thing obnoxious about Fat Turret lists are the people who F*king complain about them all the time.

Piloting ability is still the chief differential factor.

The only thing obnoxious about Fat Turret lists are the people who F*king complain about them all the time.

Piloting ability is still the chief differential factor.

1.) Heh. I suppose it does get obnoxious, probably at least a third of my posts are complaints. Doesn't mean they're not true though.

2.) Piloting ability? It takes zero skill to fly a turret. Just fly wherever you want, and if you're in a bad spot boost and/or barrel roll half way across the map and pretend that being limited to greens next turn is in any way limiting.

It went, B-B-B-B-bye.

What happened to BBBBZ?

It went, B-B-B-B-bye.

And now I have N'Sync stuck in my head.

You're worse than Jar Jar.

1.) Heh. I suppose it does get obnoxious, probably at least a third of my posts are complaints. Doesn't mean they're not true though.

2.) Piloting ability? It takes zero skill to fly a turret. Just fly wherever you want, and if you're in a bad spot boost and/or barrel roll half way across the map and pretend that being limited to greens next turn is in any way limiting.

I'm sorry if I discount your opinion, it's clearly of someone with very little experience in the tournament scene. There's lots of nuance to flying fat ships that you clearly have no idea about.

they may be true for you, but whining about it all the time isn't going to bring back the 2013 meta. Not that anyone wants to go back to it either, given the composition of squads nowadays...

2.) Piloting ability? It takes zero skill to fly a turret. Just fly wherever you want, and if you're in a bad spot boost and/or barrel roll half way across the map and pretend that being limited to greens next turn is in any way limiting.

@ParaGoomba Slayer:

There is quite a big difference between flying it, and flying it well enough to win a large tournament.

Example: You are Chewie with a Falcon, and your opponent is a Tie Interceptor with autothrusters (not uncommon these days). At range 3 you can actually lose as all the green dice stack up on the Tie (autothruster, range , asteroids, maybe he's Royal Guard with a Stealth Device too). A good player will therefore try to maneuver his Falcon to deny range 3, and deny asteroid cover and as much as possible, deny autothruster. Fail to do this against a player who has the ability to control range and use the terrain, and the Falcon will likely lose. The dice odds will be against it. Even Fat Han is under 50-50 in this situation.

So let's stop the "turrets are easy mode, just boost randomly". Doing that, you will lose against a strong player.

Even Fat Han is under 50-50 in this situation

^ not very likely on a 60-75 min timer.

Remember, the Falcon gets +1-2 defense dice as well.

And the Squint often needs at least one token for offense, whereas the Falcon can go full retard on defense, and still keep its offensive capabilities via passives.

Add in MF Title and CPO/R2D2 and you can lollerskate to victory 1v1 against most of the ships out there.

Even Fat Han is under 50-50 in this situation

^ not very likely on a 60-75 min timer.

Remember, the Falcon gets +1-2 defense dice as well.

And the Squint often needs at least one token for offense, whereas the Falcon can go full retard on defense, and still keep its offensive capabilities via passives.

Add in MF Title and CPO/R2D2 and you can lollerskate to victory 1v1 against most of the ships out there.

With R2-d2 and all the stuff you'd be significantly more expensive than an interceptor. Add a second interceptor. And yes, you would beat most ships but by viritue of costing either side of 60 points i.e. more than they do.

Aye,

The question is if those squints can make it there, as he's also never alone.

Recent numbers from the Regionals thread and from my own personal experience - I'd say that they struggle still. :s

Aye,

The question is if those squints can make it there, as he's also never alone.

Recent numbers from the Regionals thread and from my own personal experience - I'd say that they struggle still. :s

It was really more about trying to dispel the "turrets are easy mode" myth rather than building a balanced list. If one assumes the turret ship is flown by a weaker player then the opposition is going ot get good shots and have the appropriate tokens. Sure, turrets are easier to fly than an interceptor but anyone saying it involves "no skill" is either inexperienced or so enormously intelligent (s)he's inhuman. The first is far more likely :-)

I do agree that Fat Han is pretty strong - but the players winning big events with him are also very good players. It's not a case of driving like a derp and rolling dice for the win.

Aye,

The question is if those squints can make it there, as he's also never alone.

Recent numbers from the Regionals thread and from my own personal experience - I'd say that they struggle still. :s

It was really more about trying to dispel the "turrets are easy mode" myth rather than building a balanced list. If one assumes the turret ship is flown by a weaker player then the opposition is going ot get good shots and have the appropriate tokens. Sure, turrets are easier to fly than an interceptor but anyone saying it involves "no skill" is either inexperienced or so enormously intelligent (s)he's inhuman. The first is far more likely :-)

I do agree that Fat Han is pretty strong - but the players winning big events with him are also very good players. It's not a case of driving like a derp and rolling dice for the win.

you don't think inhuman intellect is common amongst the players of this game?

then again, only a feeble human mind could conceive the need for a turret *beep-boop*

Come on, all I see in forums are people complaining about fat turrets. However some months ago all I saw was people complaining about 4 ship lists. And before that, all I saw was people complaining about swarms.

The meta changes. New skills come into play. Although some tournaments have been won by fat turrets lately many haven't. Just as many weren't won by 4 ship lists some months ago, and many weren't won by swarms before that.

The fact that so many different ship builds win championship tells me that balance exists. What changes is the trend of using different lists. I really don't understand why so much whining happens. And even if a particular build would ALWAYS win, or even more often than not, what is the point complaining? Just use it in the tournament, then... If you really are the best player, you will win. Right?

..

What, you didn't win with a PWT? Oh, there's the luck factor, you say? Ok.

Come on, all I see in forums are people complaining about fat turrets. However some months ago all I saw was people complaining about 4 ship lists. And before that, all I saw was people complaining about swarms.

The meta changes. New skills come into play. Although some tournaments have been won by fat turrets lately many haven't. Just as many weren't won by 4 ship lists some months ago, and many weren't won by swarms before that.

The fact that so many different ship builds win championship tells me that balance exists. What changes is the trend of using different lists. I really don't understand why so much whining happens. And even if a particular build would ALWAYS win, or even more often than not, what is the point complaining? Just use it in the tournament, then... If you really are the best player, you will win. Right?

..

What, you didn't win with a PWT? Oh, there's the luck factor, you say? Ok.

Because the Turretwing 2 ship meta destroys much of what this game game is about, that is having maneuver dials actually matter, nuanced PS bidding, and preserving action economy. After you've stripped these things out of the game you end up with a bunch of people pointlessly placing maneuver dials for their fat turrets pretending that their fat turrets won't have shots on each other and that they are better at doing nothing but rolling dice at each other and winning in the list building phase.

Now when you bump a fat turret it still gets to range one behind itself with a free reroll and free hit to crit conversion and a free second shot should the first one miss.

Note how swarms and 4 ship builds don't strip everything that's fun out of the game.

I don't agree. Even if you can shoot 360, there are plenty of things to consider. You still have to fly well and tough placement decisions often come up.

Regardless, this only affects Tournament play (if at all). Casually you can always ask the other player to use a different squad, if you are so troubled by it.

Note how swarms and 4 ship builds don't strip everything that's fun out of the game.

This is relative, and that's a key point. There are currently two other threads arguments about turrets going on in the forum right now - let's try and keep this topic constructively about BBBBZ.

I don't agree. Even if you can shoot 360, there are plenty of things to consider. You still have to fly well and tough placement decisions often come up.

Regardless, this only affects Tournament play (if at all). Casually you can always ask the other player to use a different squad, if you are so troubled by it.

You don't have to fly well because you have a turret. Most of what makes flying a ship difficult in this game is having to also point your arc at something, with a turret movement becomes entirely about running away and that is 10 times easier. With Dash these movement decisions are even easier because you can essentially cheat and move halfway across the map after doing a green 1 bank. Maneuver dials used to matter.

Note how swarms and 4 ship builds don't strip everything that's fun out of the game.

This is relative, and that's a key point. There are currently two other threads arguments about turrets going on in the forum right now - let's try and keep this topic constructively about BBBBZ.

This is a thread about why BBBBZ isn't as prevalent in the meta as it 'should be'. The reason this is IMO is because of nuance less game ruining 2 ship builds.

This is a thread about why BBBBZ isn't as prevalent in the meta as it 'should be'. The reason this is IMO is because of nuance less game ruining 2 ship builds.

What builds do you regularly fly?

Do you believe BBBBZ "should be" prevalent in the meta?

I don't agree. Even if you can shoot 360, there are plenty of things to consider. You still have to fly well and tough placement decisions often come up.

Regardless, this only affects Tournament play (if at all). Casually you can always ask the other player to use a different squad, if you are so troubled by it.

You don't have to fly well because you have a turret. Most of what makes flying a ship difficult in this game is having to also point your arc at something, with a turret movement becomes entirely about running away and that is 10 times easier. With Dash these movement decisions are even easier because you can essentially cheat and move halfway across the map after doing a green 1 bank. Maneuver dials used to matter.

I agree that it is easier to fly turrets, anyone can see that. However, it still takes a certain amount of skill to win with one.

This is a thread about why BBBBZ isn't as prevalent in the meta as it 'should be'. The reason this is IMO is because of nuance less game ruining 2 ship builds.

What builds do you regularly fly?

Do you believe BBBBZ "should be" prevalent in the meta?

if the assumption is that BBBBZ is the natural counter to the prevalent turret, one would expect to see quite a few of them in response to the quite a few turrets

I don't agree. Even if you can shoot 360, there are plenty of things to consider. You still have to fly well and tough placement decisions often come up.

Regardless, this only affects Tournament play (if at all). Casually you can always ask the other player to use a different squad, if you are so troubled by it.

You don't have to fly well because you have a turret. Most of what makes flying a ship difficult in this game is having to also point your arc at something, with a turret movement becomes entirely about running away and that is 10 times easier. With Dash these movement decisions are even easier because you can essentially cheat and move halfway across the map after doing a green 1 bank. Maneuver dials used to matter.

Note how swarms and 4 ship builds don't strip everything that's fun out of the game.

This is relative, and that's a key point. There are currently two other threads arguments about turrets going on in the forum right now - let's try and keep this topic constructively about BBBBZ.

This is a thread about why BBBBZ isn't as prevalent in the meta as it 'should be'. The reason this is IMO is because of nuance less game ruining 2 ship builds.

Action phase maneuvering isn't something that Dash introduced. Phantoms did it better than him, and Fel arguably does it just as well and had been doing so for a long time. Hell, as far back as wave 2 we had engine upgrade, push the limit, Falcons, Interceptors, A-Wings, and Vader.

The "golden age" that so many people think of was basically "just the core set".

That's the problem with Paragoomba Slayer, he started playing late in Wave 3 and therefore has some sort of distorted, nostalgic notion of how the game should be 'correctly' played, I.E. Two B-Wings, Biggs and a Rookie on one side and Seven Academy Pilots and Howlrunner on the other.

What's obnoxious is that he truly believes this is the only right, correct, nuanced, proper way to play X-Wing and anything else is just bull, the 'wrong' way to play X-Wing. He doesn't realise that this is just his opinion based on his experiences starting the game at Wave 3. If he had played from Wave 1 or was a serious competitive player who enjoyed a fluid, mutable meta which evolves with releases he would understand and welcome changes to the game, but instead he preaches his poisonous gospel like it's some sort of absolute truth, in the process reducing everyone else's enjoyment of the game.

Meta's not going to change, however, regardless of how much Goombaslayer dislikes it, however.

I saw someone using BBBAA with autothrusters recently, I think I would prefer playing that to be honest. It should have better match ups versus turrets. The A's are also significantly better blockers.

AAAAA

that's replacing BSPs w/GSPs packing PTL & thrusters

I saw someone using BBBAA with autothrusters recently, I think I would prefer playing that to be honest. It should have better match ups versus turrets. The A's are also significantly better blockers.

AAAAA

that's replacing BSPs w/GSPs packing PTL & thrusters

Is that list called "Open Wide And Say"?

That's the problem with Paragoomba Slayer, he started playing late in Wave 3 and therefore has some sort of distorted, nostalgic notion of how the game should be 'correctly' played, I.E. Two B-Wings, Biggs and a Rookie on one side and Seven Academy Pilots and Howlrunner on the other.

What's obnoxious is that he truly believes this is the only right, correct, nuanced, proper way to play X-Wing and anything else is just bull, the 'wrong' way to play X-Wing. He doesn't realise that this is just his opinion based on his experiences starting the game at Wave 3. If he had played from Wave 1 or was a serious competitive player who enjoyed a fluid, mutable meta which evolves with releases he would understand and welcome changes to the game, but instead he preaches his poisonous gospel like it's some sort of absolute truth, in the process reducing everyone else's enjoyment of the game.

Meta's not going to change, however, regardless of how much Goombaslayer dislikes it, however.

My 'distorted' view of the game prefers a nuanced one where maneuver dials actually matter, and whether or not you get actions, and where it was harder to straight up autolose in the list building phase. Nuanced PS bidding was more of a thing also. It prefers a meta where you couldn't stack 4 dice and gunner and FCS except on a Lambda because ships had certain quirks and limitations, like not being able to ignore asteroids and fire their HLC as a turret and ruin the game.

You also understand that there have been plenty of 'normal' balanced ships since wave 3 like the Z-95 and Defender and M3-A Interceptor and Starviper that would be playable in this meta should they not have to deal with a 13 health turret behind a wall of damage mitigation or ships that can gunner their HLC blasts.

I don't care if the meta is fluid or not. If it starts off good and then is fluid and changes to absolute **** then I'd rather it be stagnant.

I have a feeling that if turret haters keep on complaining about this game that was ruined by them, we'll eventually have a turret nerf just like the Phantom nerf. What is the number from MajorJuggler's regional results thread? 55% won by fat game ruining no skill turrets? People having to face fat turret based 2 ship lists 7 times in a day?

Wave 7 will do absolutely nothing to the meta, just as wave 6 changed absolutely nothing except added dual IG's.