In a scenario I was running the Force Sensitive Exile has the basic Force Push ability. The plalyers were hiding in a shadowy alcove and about to launch a surprise attack on the enemy Hutt and his bodyguards. The player wants to use his force push ability to launch a grenade into the midst of the enemy. Since their is no skill roll for using force push (you just roll your force die and activate it) how do you determine if he gets the grenade to the target point he wants it?

Id probably require the upgrade that allows you to throw things as an attack. Without it you can't move the grenade far enough fast enough to clear the blast radius.

I would probably have it made as a disapline check as a ranged attack, taking modifers into account for distance for the fact that the person is trying to hasterly deliver a grenade to a particlar spot before it explodes, upgrading the check at least once for the fact that the grenade is being subject to strong forces (dispair meaning that the grenade hit something along the way, meaning it wouldn't make it to the optimal postion, wasting the oppertunity and drawing attention. Perhaps someone concludes that only a jedi could be behind this...). Under normal cercumstances it would probably be too tricky to pull off in a combat turn; though in hindsight it's probably a pretty inventive use of the move object skill thus I would consider it cool in the long run (i would like to fling daggers this way if I had move object.)

In this particlar case though; as it is the party who is intiating the ambush I would probably just go for it! Since it's assumed that there is plenty of prep time for self preparation, rather then just doing it in the middle of a battle.

Honestly, just let him.

The power says that you can move a silhouette 0 within short range up to short (without upgrades).It's not even guaranteed that the player will succeed at the check and failing to move that live grenade is going to make the player think twice about it it's actually worth the risk.

If you're really picky then make it a Discipline Check combined with a Move power check. I wouldn't require the talent as the talent is used to hurl objects with enough force to deal damage themselves. Simply moving a grenade from point A to point B doesn't require much force.

Side Note: If playing with the Morality system from F&D, I'd definitely give conflict for using the force to surprise red mist people with a grenade. That's just me though haha.

I like the no check but morality approach.

If The player isn't using morality (why not?) then a ranged light attack action using the willpower stat and force dice, applying normal combat difficulty and modifiers could work well, also flip a dark side destiny pip for an upgrade (hopefully that Hutt has Adversary as well for multiple upgrades)

I like the no check but morality approach.

If The player isn't using morality (why not?) then a ranged light attack action using the willpower stat and force dice, applying normal combat difficulty and modifiers could work well, also flip a dark side destiny pip for an upgrade (hopefully that Hutt has Adversary as well for multiple upgrades)

You'd have to have the F&D beta book to even know about the Morality system. Given that this post is in the EotE boards, mostly like just the EotE core book is in use (plus the OP said it was a FSE spec).

He's gotta pull the pin/activate the grenade before he tries to move the grenade. IIRC fine manipulation is one of the final upgrades on the move power. So it's really a gamble of "will the force be with me, or is this grenade gonna explode in my face". If he is desperate and uses dark side pips to complete the action I would give him some conflict as he's giving in to his fear/anger. Granted I have yet to have a force sensitive in my game so I could be way off base but that's how I'd do it.

Your completely correct, it should definitely not be assumed that players have access to the morality rules. apologies if I sounded aggressive.

Saying that, in the future the morality system would be a great way to handle situations like this, where trivial use of The Force results in the death of others l.

Push isn't precise, definitely check needed.

Move isn't fast, they may see it coming.

I appreciate all the responses I've gotten in this thread. Our group is still fairly new to the system and this has helped me get a better grasp on how the force mechanics are intended to work.

I know the Morality rules are coming. I have been keeping track of the players behaviors so I have a basis on where to start their morality once we get the rules. I have a copy of F&D reserved at my FLGS.

One of my players was resourceful and redirected a grenade back towards an escaping enemy to protect her friends. I gave a lot of conflict for it, but it worked. It was a very cool moment.

While I'm not all that big on giving you Conflict merely for attacking first, or with the force without considering additional context. The talk did make me think the following question should be asked:

Why is he using the force to move the grenade instead of just throwing it like a normal person?

Was there some effect he was going for that only the force could allow, or was this just a Jedi using the force to wipe his mule?

The idea was that the grenade was contact detonated, not a timed fuze. The room was dark and hazy. He primed the grenade and then pushed it along the ceiling until he had it over the target, then let it drop from there.

Not sure what the FFG rules say about grenade fuzes but many years ago (maybe it was in d6) there was a write up claiming grenades could be set as a normal fuze or as a contact detonation.

Additionally, if he had the "fine manipulation" upgrade for the Move power, he could "prime" the grenade at range and then drop it.

I'm all for allowing the players to be as creative as possible, as long as they're okay with the difficulties I give them!

The idea was that the grenade was contact detonated, not a timed fuze. The room was dark and hazy. He primed the grenade and then pushed it along the ceiling until he had it over the target, then let it drop from there.

Not sure what the FFG rules say about grenade fuzes but many years ago (maybe it was in d6) there was a write up claiming grenades could be set as a normal fuze or as a contact detonation.

So long story short he was using the force in a situation where he could have just thrown it.

But if he threw it he'd have to make an attack roll, whereas force powers simply activate and require no die roll. You simply roll your force die and then, if what you are doing falls within the scope of the power, you do it. The other thought was that by moving the grenade along the ceiling it'd be out of sight and a surprise. When the grenade dropped straight down no one would have seen from which direction it came.

But if he threw it he'd have to make an attack roll, whereas force powers simply activate and require no die roll. You simply roll your force die and then, if what you are doing falls within the scope of the power, you do it. The other thought was that by moving the grenade along the ceiling it'd be out of sight and a surprise. When the grenade dropped straight down no one would have seen from which direction it came.

Which goes right back to my original sentiment. Namely that this maneuver stinks of someone trying to cheat. He's not using the force to do something he can't achieve without it, he's using the force because it allows him to attack without a check, so he can auto succeed. Allow that to happen and now there's no reason for him to actually throw a grenade again.

As a side note it also show's he's not as tricksie as he thinks he is. Without an attack roll he can't generate Advantage... so the blast quality can't activate. Honestly without rolling the best he could hope for is base damage (8) to a single target... no blast, no crits, no bonuses of any kind....

I stand by my previous statement: He's got to have the upgrade that allows you to make a move power check as an attack.

This maneuver would then be a two-parter. Part I he moves the grenade along the ceiling requiring a move pip roll and a stealth check, and then Part II he makes the attack check.

But if he threw it he'd have to make an attack roll, whereas force powers simply activate and require no die roll. You simply roll your force die and then, if what you are doing falls within the scope of the power, you do it. The other thought was that by moving the grenade along the ceiling it'd be out of sight and a surprise. When the grenade dropped straight down no one would have seen from which direction it came.

In this case, I would think that you should still have to make an attack roll to see how close you can get it to your intended target before you drop it. Just like if you were trying to drop a hammer on someone via Force push.

Parallax and other issues make it very difficult to determine if the object you are wanting to drop is actually directly over the intended target, or if it just looks that way from the place where you are standing.

Sure, you can drop it without having to roll for the attack, but that doesn’t mean that it will necessarily come down anywhere close to the intended target(s).

Just my $0.02. YMMV.

But if he threw it he'd have to make an attack roll, whereas force powers simply activate and require no die roll. You simply roll your force die and then, if what you are doing falls within the scope of the power, you do it. The other thought was that by moving the grenade along the ceiling it'd be out of sight and a surprise. When the grenade dropped straight down no one would have seen from which direction it came.

I would most definitely still require a skill check to be made as part of the Force power check. Stealth is a good one, and just treat it as a combat check but it's opposed by the target's Perception instead of being against a set ranged difficulty. Also, I'd be tempted to ignore certain sources of defense, depending on how the situation was played out.

But if he threw it he'd have to make an attack roll, whereas force powers simply activate and require no die roll. You simply roll your force die and then, if what you are doing falls within the scope of the power, you do it. The other thought was that by moving the grenade along the ceiling it'd be out of sight and a surprise. When the grenade dropped straight down no one would have seen from which direction it came.

Which goes right back to my original sentiment. Namely that this maneuver stinks of someone trying to cheat. He's not using the force to do something he can't achieve without it, he's using the force because it allows him to attack without a check, so he can auto succeed. Allow that to happen and now there's no reason for him to actually throw a grenade again.

As a side note it also show's he's not as tricksie as he thinks he is. Without an attack roll he can't generate Advantage... so the blast quality can't activate. Honestly without rolling the best he could hope for is base damage (8) to a single target... no blast, no crits, no bonuses of any kind....

I stand by my previous statement: He's got to have the upgrade that allows you to make a move power check as an attack.

This maneuver would then be a two-parter. Part I he moves the grenade along the ceiling requiring a move pip roll and a stealth check, and then Part II he makes the attack check.

The character has had to devote a minimum 40 exp in order to obtain the move power, and has a 7/12 chance of living moving the live grenade next to him without the use of dark side. Definitely not as powerful as it sounds.

In my example, the PC was redirecting a grenade thrown at the party back towards the NPC who threw it. The conflict was because she could have used the force in a defensive way, cast the grenade aside, or perhaps lifted something to shield them. Instead, she used the force to throw a live grenade at a retreating NPC. That would make you have some internal conflict.

I do agree that the force is a heavy point investment and sometimes it is just a cool application. I believe in my case I did have her roll a check - do not recall which in addition to the force roll because it is a complicated thing to try to do.

That said - I think in the other player example they are trying to use the force for fun but maybe they are also gaming the system. They would just take the strain/conflict if dark pips show up and either light or dark - the thing gets did. It does seem like trying to pull one over on the GM. Conflict is intended to be one of the checks to this. Deploy it with discretion.

I haven't come across this situation yet but I expect I will at some point.

First it wouldn't be a a Push but a Move (A little semantic but a Push implies well, like hitting a ball with a bat as opposed to throwing a ball). In any case if your PC wanted to "pull the pin" then use the force to quickly place the grenade at the target before it explodes, or hit it on the ground to activate it, while in a tense situation (ALL combat is a tense situation even before the blaster bolts fly because you body is pumping adrenalin in anticipation of combat), and the chance that they may see it coming you should still require an Attack roll.
I would give the PC a Boost Die or even two as an Opposed check vs the target's Vigilance as the threshold.

Why? Well an Attack roll is not just a Roll to Hit as in other systems but a roll to determine the outcome of the Action, not just determining Success but to potentially generate Advantages and Threats that help describe the scene. SO regardless of the PC's ability to use the Force, in a situation like this because there is a chance that the PC might get anxious and miss the exact area or the targets might see the grenade coming and dive for cover, you must have a way to determine if this happens (ie. an Attack roll). Other situations such as placing a mine or explosive somewhere while not in combat or where no one is around to observe would be different and would only require the FP roll and maybe a roll such as Mechanics or Survival to know the best place to put it.

But, you may ask, you don't need to roll when using the Force to attack someone directly so why now? The Key word is directly. As soon as you add another factor into the mix (placing the grenade in the right spot for maximum effect while not being noticed) you must account for it.

You could also allow the targets to roll their Vigilance to see the grenade coming but that wouldn't help you determine the outcome so it's best to have the Player roll.

But if he threw it he'd have to make an attack roll, whereas force powers simply activate and require no die roll. You simply roll your force die and then, if what you are doing falls within the scope of the power, you do it. The other thought was that by moving the grenade along the ceiling it'd be out of sight and a surprise. When the grenade dropped straight down no one would have seen from which direction it came.

Which goes right back to my original sentiment. Namely that this maneuver stinks of someone trying to cheat. He's not using the force to do something he can't achieve without it, he's using the force because it allows him to attack without a check, so he can auto succeed. Allow that to happen and now there's no reason for him to actually throw a grenade again.

As a side note it also show's he's not as tricksie as he thinks he is. Without an attack roll he can't generate Advantage... so the blast quality can't activate. Honestly without rolling the best he could hope for is base damage (8) to a single target... no blast, no crits, no bonuses of any kind....

I stand by my previous statement: He's got to have the upgrade that allows you to make a move power check as an attack.

This maneuver would then be a two-parter. Part I he moves the grenade along the ceiling requiring a move pip roll and a stealth check, and then Part II he makes the attack check.

The character has had to devote a minimum 40 exp in order to obtain the move power, and has a 7/12 chance of living moving the live grenade next to him without the use of dark side. Definitely not as powerful as it sounds.

By my count to move the grenade to a location in short range and drop it he only needs 10XP for the base force power. Compared to the cost of Agility points or Ranged(Light) ranks that's a bargain. Even the 25XP to hurl it as a weapon is a decent deal but at least then you have it attached to a skill and ability...

That's my rub on this. It's one thing if he wanted to move it to long range using his range upgrades, or steer it rolling through a pipe. The thing for me is the Force shouldn't be an economical replacement for doing something you are fully capable of doing without the force.

In our situation I did allow the Hutt and his bodyguards to make Perception checks vs. Hard difficulty to see the grenade in time to react to it. The result was a failure for the Hutt and a success, with a threat and a despair for his bodyguard minion group. So they saw something moving along the ceiling but gathered beneath it to try and see what it was, they clearly identified it as it detonated in their midst. However this did shield the Hutt from the blast and I lively battle ensued. (The players not wanting their suprise spoiled used a destiny point to upgrade one die to red).