If I use a hellhound breath attack and hit 2 heros, and 1 of them has dodge, does that effect the roll for both heros, or just the one?

Hero 1 with dodge had plenty wounds hero 2 without dodge as 3 wounds, and both were hit by 3 wounds. On the reroll I did 1 wound less, so Hero 2 would not die if he get the benefit of the reroll as well.

Mordak said:

It affects both heroes. If the reroll comes up with an X for example, it misses them both.

Also, hit by 3 damage or 3 wounds? The rules police always like to make sure that people know the difference between damage and wounds (yes, I am sadly at times one of the rules police).

I can't see how it would affect both. So if someone tries to me me with a stick and my mate jumps out the way, I won't get hit even though I didn't jump out of the way, not exactly logical is it?

was hit by 3 pierce 3

could you tell me where the rules on this is cos both of us looked and could not see an answer that clarified this

If you are looking for logical rules, find another game! :-P

The rules for Blast and Breath specify that a single roll applies to all targets hit by it. Thus if dodge forces re-rolls, it must apply to all hit by the attack (otherwise multiple rolls would be applied).

If its the rules fair enough, bit sad though, obviously not much thought went into the design of the game.

Its a pity cos I enjoy the game, but I hate the way the rules are so crap.

I would have thought that blast and breath weapons would have required each Hero to make a dodge roll specifically because of the type of attack that they are.

From the gathered list of answered questions :

Area of Effect attack and Dodge.
An area attack is made on a group of characters. The attack die are rolled and one Hero uses Dodge. Does the original roll take effect on the other Heroes, or does the newly rolled attack affect all Heroes?

The new roll effects all the targets.

This isn't explicitly called out in the rules, but it is the result if you follow them precisely: a dodge order forces the attacker to reroll dice. It never specifies that the reroll affects specific targets or not, so we have to assume it changes the attack itself, and therefore changes the result for all targets. This is reinforced by the fact that the rules go into detail saying that you cannot have more than one reroll per attack, even if multiple heroes dodge the same attack. That wouldn't make much sense if the first reroll only affected the first dodger, would it?

Additionally...how exactly are you going to resolve different attack rolls against different targets? Specifically, how are surges going to work? The attacker isn't normally allowed to spend surges differently for each target, and some surge effects change the attack and don't directly affect any target (such as gaining threat). What are you going to do if the attack has a different number of surges against different targets? You'd need a radical rewrite to the attack rules to even resolve that.

Another likely motivation is keeping things simple, and not forcing players to memorize a ton of stuff. Doing separate rerolls for each dodger would require that you remember and restore the original die result between each reroll, and that's stupidly complicated.

If you want thematic logic in your rules, then (1) you probably shouldn't be playing Descent, and (2) you should at least try to describe the outcome in the way that makes the maximum amount of sense, rather than the minimum amount. Your friend isn't jumping out of the way when you get stabbed, he's knocking the knife away . And it doesn't even apply if only you are being stabbed, it applies when the attack targets both of you, which means the attacker needs to try to compensate for the movement and defenses of every target, not just one of them.

If you really want to mess with your head, consider that a hero can walk into the middle of a group of enemies, place a dodge order, and have an ally hit him and the monsters with a Blast attack, then reroll dice to maximize the attack's damage due to the dodge order. If he quaffs an invisibility potion first, he's even got a good chance of avoiding the attack himself while increasing its damage (and reducing its miss chance) against the monsters.

The logic is behind the fact that FFG decided to make dodge affect an attacker's roll, rather than allowing a second roll for the defender.

This serves to improve gameplay because it decreases the amount of dice rolling while still simulating the effect well. Aside from the OL having to wait for 4 heros to make dodge-rolls, it also prevents the heros being forced to wait while the OL rolls 9 dodge rolls for his horde of kobolds that you just blasted.

Also, more reasoning is probably seen in consulting the 1st page of the Descent FAQ, where it says:

"Blast and Breath - These abilities are not mandatory. If not used, the attack is treated as a normal ranged or magic attack."

The reasoning here may be that if the OL wants to ignore the 1 dodging hero, he or she can choose to make a normal attack on the other hero that isn't dodging. Otherwise, in using a breath weapon the attack isn't really targeting anything imparticular. So, a hero that is dodging may serve to distract the attacking monster enough that it misses the entire group.

And, I don't see any problem with you wanting the rules to be logical. I prefer the same and I still love descent. Sometimes we have to think creatively though to justify them.

Antistone said:

That may be legal, but its not in the spirit of the game if you ask me.

ok my example may not have been the best, I can accept that some rules may have been written for simplicity sake, or for game balance, if so fair enough,

But they should have thought of something better in this case. So a 40ft wall of flame rages down a corridor and because 1 guy dodges (where did he dodge to exactly) the other guy is automatically unharmed as well, even though he didn't dodge. hmmm makes perfect sense.

I have no problem with the dodge order against individual attacks by monsters, but not against breath attack, they should have done something else. Have a breath dice with more misses on it perhaps, or make you roll the stealth dice as well to allow more change of a miss. That would make better sense than the rules as written.

joshuapavon said:

That's unlikely to be the goal. Those abilities were mandatory until people discovered various exploits in Road to Legend: grappling a monster on a diagonal makes it impossible for that monsters to hit you with the breath template, and grappling a monster orthogonally makes it impossible for that monster to hit you with a Blast attack without also hitting itself. Also, there's apparently a way in Road to Legend for a hero to acquire the Ironskin ability, which makes them flat-out immune to Blast and Breath attacks.

But regardless, they released three expansions before they changed those abilities to be optional. And they didn't even errata them optional at the same time--they did Breath first, and then added Blast in a later edition of the FAQ when people were complaining about it. I'm still half-expecting them to add Bolt to the list in the next update, though it doesn't have any grapple abuses (just the Ironskin thing), and of course hardly anything uses it.

Somewhat hilariously, they also eventually removed the skill granting grapple from RtL, after making the other two changes.

It's an issue of game mechanics. FFG chose (IMO correctly) that a cleaner and easier to implement mechanic trumps realistic fidelity. More than likely, dodge and the other orders were developed and tested much earlier in the game design phase, as they are a integral and very common mechanic of the game. You could very well argue that the orders (along with the Actions) are what gives Descent it's unique tactical feel (vs, say, WHQ which has a flat combat system). Things like breath and blast are more than likely brought in later, after the other mechanics had been nailed down. The newer mechanics are the ones that are most likely to have a number of anomalous issues with them that make it through testing, probably from a mix of less development time, and the escalating number of interactions as things are added. But the core mechanics will likely not suffer as much . There aren't many questions about how the individual orders function, only how they function with other, likely newer (in terms of development cycle), mechanics. In terms of breath, they chose (wisely) that only a single dodging hero forces the re-roll of the attack dice, even though multiple targets are hit (perhaps a mix of dodging and non-dodging models), despite the disconnect with what we would think of as reality. In order to force reality onto the game, there would be a need to re-write, from the ground, decided upon core mechanics. This would produce a completely different game (given the crazy number of mechanics that may force another re-write, ad naseum), and one that may not be as focused, or as satisfactory. There may have never even been a descent if they took that approach. In short, the way breath an dodge interact are a necessary departure from reality in order to make the game work.

On pages 22 and 23 of the JitD rulebook under Blast, Breath, and Sweep. The same rule for those three applies to all other AOE damage (Bolt, and Leap).

I think that's all the AOE damage types, but if I missed one it applies to that too. One figure dodges ... everyone benefits. Realistic? No. Simple? Yes.

Suppose I'd better tell em that the Hero's not dead and repay the 4 CT, still say it's a load of crap though.

mordak5 said:

If you think that is bad, go reread the FAQ entry on Ironskin and Sorcery where a Golem grants Ironskin to all creatures in an Area attack its involved in.

it does, ok

that doesn't bother me cos thats a magic effect. if the single dodge affecting all hero's was due to magic item i would have no problem with it, it would be a pain, but it would make sense. it the lack of reason in the rules that annoys me.

It is most certainly not a lack of reason why the rules are the way they are. It's an example of applied reason in terms of workable game mechanics, and not verisimilitude.

Big Remy said:

To be fair, I think there's a good chance that that's an editing mistake and that sentence is missing the word "not." In the giant debate thread arguing about Sorcery and Ironskin that apparently prompted the FAQ ruling, Ironskin not granting protection to other figures was the one thing that everyone seemed to agree about.

Mordak said:

See, this is why fighters can't have nice things: people let wizards get away with anything, but fighters have to look like fighters in the real world, regardless of game balance, playability, or in-world explanations. Even when the fighters are explicitly magical and the "magic" is not!

It's a fantasy world. The laws of physics are different. That's the only way magic works in the first place. And if "magic" is better than other options (say, by not being constriained to follow real-world examples), then everyone in the world will use magic. A ton of the melee/ranged equipment in Descent has overtly magical names (e.g. "Sorcerous"), magical-looking artwork, and/or does things that don't remotely make sense unless you assume it's magical (like a belt that increases your strength). We can only assume that all the heroes, regardless of traits, are loaded down with magic trinkets and performing minor magic rituals that are below the detail threshold of the game mechanics.

If stuff arbitrarily stops bothering you because you consider it magical, then consider dodging magical! Problem solved. Don't come here and complain that iron skin must obviously be magical while the abilities of professional adventurers in a highly magical setting shouldn't do anything that a buff guy couldn't do in real life.

Hey I have no problem with the dodge rule as such as you will see from my previous posts, its 1 hero putting up dodge, and the reroll affecting other heros that did not place a dodge order that I find silly.

What about the "Blocked" Feat Card? If one Hero uses it against an attack that would affect multiple Heroes and "Block"s the attack, do the other Heroes also ignore the attack? I've ruled against it.

Mordak said:

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. If that bothers you, and Ironskin protecting other figures caught in the same attack doesn't bother you, then you are operating under a double standard.

XmenDynasty said:

Looks that way to me, though that may be a mistake. The effect says "that monster's attack against you becomes a miss," but if it flipped that around and said "that monster's attack becomes a miss against you," then it would definitely not protect other figures (though "that attack does not affect you" would be a better way of saying that). There's already precedent for attacks missing some figures but not others (in the case of Stealth), and that works because it's an all-or-nothing deal, unlike dodge or fear, which potentially change the number of surges available to the attack.

We didn't know about the ironskin thing, we have not played it that way.

We always play by the rules, doesn't mean we have to agree or like all the rules. I can disagree with something I think is wrong. Won't stop me playing the game, or enjoying playing the game, but I still think its a silly rule.

just a side note 2 out of the 3 Hero's playing agreed with me about the rule so its not me being a grumpy OL .

In the next campaign I will be able to take advantage of the rule myself, as we take turns being OL for each campaign.

Mordak said:

Yes, you can disagree with something you think is wrong. But if you disagree with it publicly, and your stated reason for disagreeing with it is paltry, and inconsistent with other reasoning you've posted, then other posters can mock you for saying things that don't make sense.

fair enough everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Just looked at the FAQ errata regarding ironskin, hadn't noticed that before.

Not sure how that would work either,