Hope is Tzeench's domain. Food for thought, there, I think...

Hope is Tzeench's domain. Food for thought, there, I think...

I've also read somewhere that it's also part of Nurgle, that whole positve vibe from new stuff growing frow decaying stuff...

However that does mean you really can't fight chaos. Everytime your priests/commisars rally the troops and tell them to hang in there, and hope for victory...They are only making the chaos gods stronger!

Hope is Tzeench's domain. Food for thought, there, I think...

I've also read somewhere that it's also part of Nurgle, that whole positve vibe from new stuff growing frow decaying stuff...

However that does mean you really can't fight chaos. Everytime your priests/commisars rally the troops and tell them to hang in there, and hope for victory...They are only making the chaos gods stronger!

That's the idea. You can't fight chaos and will never win since every extreme human emotion, every belief that chaos gods exist (even if you oppose them) makes them stronger. Emperor tried to destroy chaos and look how it worked

That's the idea. You can't fight chaos and will never win since every extreme human emotion, every belief that chaos gods exist (even if you oppose them) makes them stronger. Emperor tried to destroy chaos and look how it worked

GW is trying to destroy chaos...

Notice anything different?

Current running hypothesis in our group is that they're canning Slaanesh in favour of Orion, which, when you factor in Wood Elf murder rampages and the general anti-civilisation attitude the guy's faithful can have, kind of makes sense. 'course, it makes so much sense at the same time we doubt they'll be doing that, since sense left the building a long time ago in GW.

That's the idea. You can't fight chaos and will never win since every extreme human emotion, every belief that chaos gods exist (even if you oppose them) makes them stronger. Emperor tried to destroy chaos and look how it worked

Well, there are still some strong human emotions not claimed by or attributed to one of the Chaos Gods...

I have that pet theory that it is these that are responsible for stuff like Celestine - and then there are the people who believe that the Emperor has long since become a Warp God, too.

which, when you factor in Wood Elf murder rampages and the general anti-civilisation attitude the guy's faithful can have, kind of makes sense.

Slaanesh still seems like one of the least likely Chaos Gods that should go, from an in-setting perspective, simply because his domain should be incredibly influential given the lifestyle preferences of the average Human being (and probably at least some fantasy races too).

Your last sentence made me grin, though.

No hope?

Simple solution: Adapt the game to make them Tau auxiliaries. They're fighting for a young, dynamic, expanding empire open to confederation with alien species and preferring peace and trade to outright warfare. The PCs will mingle with vespid, kroot, Tau, and others. The Tau will, naturally, be very optimistic, with their place for everyone and every one for a place attitude. Instead of treating the PCs as expendable cannon fodder, their Tau allies and particularly other human auxiliaries, could easily view them as no less valued than a solider or airman in today's world, where great lengths will be gone to in order to pull their butts out of the fire.

Of course, they'll still end up fighting Tyranids and Orks and Chaos (and possibly even Imperial) forces. And as they gain notoriety and become viewed as a hardened, veteran, elite force they'll get access to Tau weapons and vehicles instead of, say, bolters and other Imperial weapons, except through salvage.

Having your bacon pulled out of the fire by a Devilfish and a squad of Battlesuits won't be as awesome as, say, getting rescued by a Land Raider and a squad of Space Marines. But it should be close.

Good idea!

Actually the battlesuits Devilfish might be a bit better.

Oh yeah, Can I pilot the Gundam Riptide?

I don't think that the Tau would be fond of the concept of giving Gue'vesa access to battlesuits. It may not even be especially feasible given the physiological differences between Tau and humans.

That being said , the Tau would undoubtedly seize full opportunity to propagandize an especially elite group of humans and might be willing to give them battlesuits to drive recruitment from human colonists of the Tau Empire.

More likely, I think they would equip and train them to a comparable level as Pathfinders.

I imagine our squad of hardened veteran auxiliaries would be wearing primarily Tau-issue armor, armed with pulse rifles and carbines, laspistols, slug pistols, big knives and the like brought from home, symbols of the Imperial faith (such as Aquila pendants), and looted chain swords, power swords, and sidearms (such as bolt pistols).

And having the Tau Fire Caste insignia on their helmets with an inscription in High Gothic of, " Natus Occidere " - Born to Kill - without the slightest hint of irony.

Having your bacon pulled out of the fire by a Devilfish and a squad of Battlesuits won't be as awesome as, say, getting rescued by a Land Raider and a squad of Space Marines. But it should be close.

I think it would made more sense than land raider and space marines rescue. Why should they rescue expendable imperium soldiers? But Tau could rescue their human allies especially if they are veterans who fight for the greater good.

And now you've made me think of the even more awesome: A Space Wolves thunderwolf cavalry squad.

(The Space Wolves, at least under Logan Grimnar, are unlikely to leave Guardsmen twisting in the wind, IMHO.)

They're fighting for a young, dynamic, expanding empire open to confederation with alien species and preferring peace and trade to outright warfare

Well, tau society is built upon a rigid caste system, feature a rather rigid totalitarian ideology based on absolute obedience to the Ethereals (well, if an Ethereal commands another tau to commit suicide - he'll do it without hesitation). So it's not that simple and clear.

trying to use Chaos to create a "better world"

Well, thinking that Chaos could be used for benevolent means is the longest standing fatal mistake if WH40K universe, really. Because it simply couldn't.

PS - Yeah there is Nurgle who is largely a benevolent deity by his character and outlook, however, most people still do not want to receive his "gifts"

as long as we keep in mind that the characters themselves would have a rather limited perspective

you could remake the entire Imperium to conform to a more idealistic player's ideas

Well, the point is Imperium is really very-very big and on that notion, individual solidier, NCO or junior officer from Imperial Guard would indeed have rather limited perspective.

Through than notion it is not far fetched to assume that the Galaxy's worst aspects are actually hidden from most people's sight by the imperial adepta and for good reason - so a common soldier/junior officer could know nothing of the details on the Long War, nothing about brutal tortures and punishments of heretics by the Inquisition, do not know that Chaos sorcery may be real and daemons may enter mortal realm physically. Such info is hidden for a good reason because it could lead to madness or worse- chaotic corruption.

Well, the point is Imperium is really very-very big and on that notion, individual solidier, NCO or junior officer from Imperial Guard would indeed have rather limited perspective.

Through than notion it is not far fetched to assume that the Galaxy's worst aspects are actually hidden from most people's sight by the imperial adepta and for good reason - so a common soldier/junior officer could know nothing of the details on the Long War, nothing about brutal tortures and punishments of heretics by the Inquisition, do not know that Chaos sorcery may be real and daemons may enter mortal realm physically. Such info is hidden for a good reason because it could lead to madness or worse- chaotic corruption.

Yep but in lots of fluff. Games, novels, short stories. Officers know about chaos, inqisition, daemons, traitor marines etc. Some even know about horus heresy so it's like most of 40k canon. Take it or leave it.

Well, thinking that Chaos could be used for benevolent means is the longest standing fatal mistake if WH40K universe, really. Because it simply couldn't.

PS - Yeah there is Nurgle who is largely a benevolent deity by his character and outlook, however, most people still do not want to receive his "gifts"

Oh yes, that's why I put it in parenthesis, and based it on the characters' intentions rather than the end result. The insidious thing about Chaos is that it's easy to start out believing in the right thing, and then slowly slip ever further into obsession, compromises and madness as you slowly become that which you fought.

Technically, the latter part would not have to be played out in an "idealistic" game, although I'd at least add some hints just for the sake of leaving the idea behind this aspect of the setting all uncompromised.

Through than notion it is not far fetched to assume that the Galaxy's worst aspects are actually hidden from most people's sight by the imperial adepta and for good reason - so a common soldier/junior officer could know nothing of the details on the Long War, nothing about brutal tortures and punishments of heretics by the Inquisition, do not know that Chaos sorcery may be real and daemons may enter mortal realm physically. Such info is hidden for a good reason because it could lead to madness or worse- chaotic corruption.

Well, that depends on where you look - different sources tell us different things here. Going by the codices, the Ecclesiarchy is actually rather open about torture of heretics and occasionally makes it a public spectacle ... just like it was in medieval times. If a population is suitably religious, this can actually raise morale, even though for us as readers/players it's still wrong. That's part of the "meta-knowledge problem" we have to keep in mind.

Andy Hoare touched on that subject when he wrote about the Sisters once:

"By the standards of the 21st century, these girls are fanatical zealots, but in the context of the 41st millennium, they're paragons of virtue whose every action is a manifestation of the divine will of the God-Emperor of Mankind."

-- WD #292

The insidious thing about Chaos is that it's easy to start out believing in the right thing, and then slowly slip ever further into obsession, compromises and madness as you slowly become that which you fought

Well, exactly the thing in my viewpoint also....

Games, novels, short stories. Officers know about chaos, inqisition, daemons, traitor marines etc. Some even know about horus heresy so it's like most of 40k canon. Take it or leave it.

Going by the codices, the Ecclesiarchy is actually rather open about torture of heretics and occasionally makes it a public spectacle ... just like it was in medieval times. If a population is suitably religious, this can actually raise morale, even though for us as readers/players it's still wrong

Well, Imperium is really big and it is not culturally monolithic at all. So there could be variations in policy - however, we do know from fluff that Inquisition ordered IG regiments fought in First Armageddon War to be "dealt with" exactly for getting knowledge about the things that "daemons are real in the material world".

Ecclesiarchy, Adeptus Mechanicus and even Inquisition are not monolithic at all. For expample, on one world heretic could be publically tortured and executed on a square, on the other - it is considered barbaric and a suspected heretic is "quitely" taken in by the Arbitres to be instantly and painlessly burnt by a meltagun shot in the Arbitres bunker with his relatives said about "rehabilitation treatment and re-education by the mercy of God-EmperorHimself".

"By the standards of the 21st century, these girls are fanatical zealots, but in the context of the 41st millennium, they're paragons of virtue whose every action is a manifestation of the divine will of the God-Emperor of Mankind."

And than we also have the propaganda that gives the image suitable to the particular world's culture.

PS- And yes, if you want an imperial civilised world with "about 21-st century IRL mentality" it's not against the fluff to "invent" such for the purpose of your campaign or as a background for your regiment. In latter case it could also lead to interesting situations if such soldiers are pitted against the things they did not even thought of in blissfull ignorance and optimism - like the daemon hosts or dark eldar.

Well, Imperium is really big and it is not culturally monolithic at all. So there could be variations in policy - however, we do know from fluff that Inquisition ordered IG regiments fought in First Armageddon War to be "dealt with" exactly for getting knowledge about the things that "daemons are real in the material world".

Well, as per the actual codex text, the deportation was not for knowledge about Chaos, but for exposure to it, and to suppress knowledge about the massive war that had taken place. In short, this was done to prevent the spread of corruption, to preserve public morale of the (new) population which can continue living under the illusion of safety, and to prevent Armageddon from becoming a hub of cult activity at various sites of daemonic incursion.

In the end, the decision was made by the very same people who are perfectly fine with everyone on Cadia knowing about the Eye of Terror and what comes out of it.

Of course you still have a good point about the cultural differences between individual worlds, though! Personally, I still treat the descriptions of daily life in the books as a universal standard, which means local deviations should not be too different ... but this comes down to a matter of interpretation and personal preferences, starting with what books we are going by. As you said before, the fluff works on the basis of "take it or leave it".

the descriptions of daily life in the books as a universal standard

First problem is what book do we take. And the second - I can hardly imagine any "universal standard" Imperium-wide. First of all, because there are many so many worlds in it, ranging from lawless and primitive feral worlds to overcrowded, plagued by wide chasm between rich and poor, hive-worlds to forge worlds of Adeptus Mechanicus filled with both technological marvels of the Ancients and newly invented high-tech stuff, from Catachan's jungle, filled with voracious predators and blasted landscape of Krieg to ordered and prosperous (even almost utopian sometimes) civilised worlds. All this is the domains of the Most Holy God-Emperor of Mankind.

As for Imperium's duties placed on a world - they are not so innumerable - a planet's population has to pay the tithes (this most often includes supplying some of the planet's production to the designated zones and (or) recruiting troops for the Imperial Guard), do not worship Chaos and have no unauthorized dealings with the xenos, maintain some of the Eccliarchy-authorized Cult of God-Emperor as an official religion. And that's all, besides a world would have Arbitres posted to look these duties are fulfilled. It these obligations are met - it's up to locals what government they have or under what facet or guise of all accepted they choose to venerate the God-Emperor.

First problem is what book do we take.

Indeed, as we both have established.

And the second - I can hardly imagine any "universal standard" Imperium-wide.

A standard does not necessarily mean a universal rule - just an average, or what you could expect. What I meant by this (but apparently failed to adequately convey despite already addressing the differences between individual worlds) is that to me, there is a certain way how things are done, and other worlds would only deviate from it to a certain degree instead of, for example, being the extreme opposite.

Let's take the Imperial Creed -- while the details of its application across the million worlds of the Imperium varies depending on local culture and adaption, studio material still maintains a universally consistent theme , that of a warrior cult preaching a violent and xenophobic message. In this light, seeing a local variant of Imperial faith which does not follow this theme and instead focuses on teaching, say, forgiveness and peace like the contemporary Pope of reformed Catholicism would look oddly out of place to me. In studio material, even the Ecclesiarchy has its limits on how far its tolerance for deviation goes, and excommunicates wayward cults for straying too far from the path personified by the current reigning Ecclesiarch.

But this interpretation is born entirely out of my personal preference for GW's original material, which encompasses both the description of said standards, as well as the description of what seems a likely "threshold" of acceptance concerning the deviations. Which brings us back to your point 1.

of a warrior cult preaching a violent and xenophobic message. In this light, seeing a local variant of Imperial faith which does not follow this theme and instead focuses on teaching, say, forgiveness and peace like the contemporary Pope of reformed Catholicism would look oddly out of place to me. In studio material, even the Ecclesiarchy has its limits on how far its tolerance for deviation goes, and excommunicates wayward cults for straying too far from the path personified by the current reigning Ecclesiarch.

Well, first of all - forgiveness and peace were amongst Christian core tenets of moral code from the early Church. But that's an offtopic. However, while Cult of God-Emperor is flexible it has some inviolable dogmas of course - on of such core dogma's is that God-Emperor is not considered the God-Creator of Universe, common to modern Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), instead God-Emperor is a guardian deity of Mankind (as such Imperial Creed's monotheism is not like found in modern religions - chaos gods and xenos gods exist beside the Emperor, however only the latter is worshipped and the former are considered an enemy by Imperial Creed adepts). So this would mean that a particular variation of Imperial Creed could preach forgiveness and mercy - but they would be reserved towards fellow humans only, since well, there is actually little point in forgiveness or mercy towards an ork or dark eldar since both will certainly give you none in return.

Well, first of all - forgiveness and peace were amongst Christian core tenets of moral code from the early Church.

The Ecclesiarchy in 40k seems to be inspired by the medieval era Christian church, in particular the popular image of witch trials, torture, conversion by fire and sword, etc. I agree I could have made the reference more obvious, though.

So this would mean that a particular variation of Imperial Creed could preach forgiveness and mercy - but they would be reserved towards fellow humans only, since well, there is actually little point in forgiveness or mercy towards an ork or dark eldar since both will certainly give you none in return.

That's something we'll just have to agree to disagree on. It sounds too far removed from the material I've been reading. As it says in d100 Inquisitor, the teachings of the Ecclesiarchy are "not a loving creed" -- frequently I read about suffering being promoted as a way of getting closer to the Emperor, and in this setting, "The Emperor's Mercy" is an euphemism for a bullet in the head as a quick way to end it.

We simply seem to have different perspectives and preferences there. No big deal. ^^

We simply seem to have different perspectives and preferences there. No big deal. ^^

Well, one of the nicest things about Wh40K settings is it's generla flexibility in appraising the universe's details.

about suffering being promoted as a way of getting closer to the Emperor

Hmm... however there is quite a difference between two various things - to endure suffering or to inflict them. And if the latter it also may make a difference upon whom they are inflicted. Most xenos and willingly unrepenting heretics (Chaos worshippers quite literally) are most likely "outside of any mercy" and "a clear enemy of all mankind" under most variations of Imperial Creed, even the ones that could proclaim peace and forgiveness among mankind.

Well, one of the nicest things about Wh40K settings is it's generla flexibility in appraising the universe's details.

Yeah. I took a very long time to get around to seeing it that way, and still harbour a strong bias - all as a result of "getting to know" the setting in a specific way, and by being exposed to (and thus having believed) a lot of fans claiming it's all supposed to tie together. I also generally prefer consistency, as it's just easier in regards to what to buy (there always is some level of disappointment if some novel etc follows a different vision than the one you've subscribed to) or simply to have a common ground with other fans.

But there is value in "making the world your own", and I've heard several writers from Black Library say they appreciate the level of artistic freedom they have in 40k. I'm sure I would regard all of this more positively if I had known from the beginning.

Hmm... however there is quite a difference between two various things - to endure suffering or to inflict them. And if the latter it also may make a difference upon whom they are inflicted. Most xenos and willingly unrepenting heretics (Chaos worshippers quite literally) are most likely "outside of any mercy" and "a clear enemy of all mankind" under most variations of Imperial Creed, even the ones that could proclaim peace and forgiveness among mankind.

From how I understood it - that is, how it was explained in the books I've read - inflicting suffering can also be seen as a way of helping another being to regain their purity. As one quote from the 2E Codex SoB puts it: "prayer cleanses the soul, but pain cleanses the body".

As such, the most devout worshippers of the Imperial Creed inflict suffering upon themselves, however those who act as spiritual guides also inflict suffering upon others, and regard that as a service for them, just like it would be regarded as a service by those who repent. 40k literally has a miniature called "Repentia", and their suffering is inflicted by the Sister Superior assigned to oversee their physical chastisement.

That is not to say that the concept of "mercy" does not exist in the Imperium at all -- merely that it has a different meaning to the clergy and citizenry. The Imperial Creed preaches the unity of mankind, it preaches devout living and honesty, and organisations such as the Sisters Hospitaller are much revered for the healing and succour they can provide. Still, I maintain that in the studio version of the setting, mercy does have a different meaning than it has in our contemporary world. For the repentent, it means not unconditional forgiveness as is propagated in the real world today, but rather a plea for lighter penance, or even the prospect of salvation by (painful) death, for this way the subject's immortal soul may be saved.

The concept of mercy and the range at which it would be applied certainly changed throughout the ages in the real world as well, hence I specifically said "contemporary Pope", given how many of his predecessors propagated different messages.

Imperator Vult!

Got your point ))

in the studio version of the setting

however we have a slight problem with the thing that EVERY BL book (except for labeled as "Heretical Tomes") is also considered "studio approved" canon. Take it or leave it, but it is the Games Workshop's position.

all as a result of "getting to know" the setting in a specific way, and by being exposed to (and thus having believed) a lot of fans claiming it's all supposed to tie together.

Considering that the canon background from the Codexes is prone to be changed with every new edition..... it is hard to expect a "canon set in stone" like, for example, it is in Star Wars universe, where the motion pictures are such "solid referance points"

however we have a slight problem with the thing that EVERY BL book (except for labeled as "Heretical Tomes") is also considered "studio approved" canon. Take it or leave it, but it is the Games Workshop's position.

That's not really a problem, it is the very basis the entire IP is built upon. If you see contradictory statements with little way to reconcile them, you simply have to pick what you prefer. There is no "studio-approved canon" because 40k has no canon at all.

Here are a few quotes I tend to post whenever people discuss the "canonicity" of the setting, for I believe they need to be distributed as much as possible in order to dispel the impression that is still bandied about by large parts of the fanbase, unfortunately including rather influential websites like Lexicanum.

Considering that the canon background from the Codexes is prone to be changed with every new edition..... it is hard to expect a "canon set in stone" like, for example, it is in Star Wars universe, where the motion pictures are such "solid referance points"

Yes, that is what I meant with my preference for consistency earlier.

That being said, I found the GW studio sources to be rather consistent even over prolonged periods of time (if you read the codex designer notes published in White Dwarf, they occasionally point out how far they go back - such as referencing the fluff about Battle Sisters in 1st edition Rogue Trader when writing the 3rd edition Codex Witch Hunters). Of course they still change a few details every now and then, but this has happened very, very rarely between 2nd and 5th edition, which happens to be the books I've built my interpretation of the setting upon.

Right now, it seems as if the studio may have started a bigger redesign of the setting, however -- possibly due to "new blood" in the studio having changed the group's consensus? I think I will keep my idea of 40k "fixed" on the previous ~20 years of GW books, though. Like I said, that's how I got to know and enjoy the setting, so naturally I'm sceptical towards change.

Regardless of how GW's new version of 40k will look, it will likely come to be the most consistent portrayal again, simply because in this studio, you've got a dozen writers co-operating to churn out material over a prolonged period of time. With stuff like the Black Library novels, however, it's almost universally "every man for himself", so more writers means more ideas means .. more contradictions.

"Sure, editorial prefers it when stuff ties in together, but it’s not a mandate. Everyone views the setting differently, after all.

I still have an email in my inbox from my editor, asking “Why didn’t you reference X in your novel?”

I also have my reply. It says, quite simply, “Because X sucks, and so does the guy who wrote it.”

That’s show business for you."

-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

That's why Aaron is one of my favorite authors...

... That and he named his cat Loken.

I did not know he had a cat, but I'll give him bonus points for that.

He seems to be very nice to talk to in general, and one of the few authors who is willing to discuss their work and the IP on public forums in order to "set a few records straight", so to speak.

Wow, check back a couple days later, and people have been talking!

**All quoted posts condensed for space**

Only war seems like it is without hope. But there is still life. Its your duty as a guardsman to give your life for the Emperor, your fellow guardsmen and the innoscent civilians of the Imperium. That said it's a **** sh*tty job. In only war you play the softest squishest imperials that are out there. But there is hope- if you look at it from the right scale. If your regiment saved the planet from the dark eldar you have won a great victory.

(So what if you lost 30 PC's 10 tims as much NPC's and your penultimate character is on a homonoculus' slab right now?)

It sucks being the imperial guard: no armor (DW) no cool deamon weapons(BC) no authority (DH) and no money (RT)! But it's sorta ment to suck ,I mean, make you feel vulnerable.

Personally i like it fairly grimdark* War is hell after all. and in 40k it is worse.

Yeah, and that seems to be how the RPG books really push it. There are moments of levity (like the Cadian Infantryman's Voxless Communication Module or whatever it's called, where they spend four paragraphs describing it, and eventually you realize it's a pen), but for the most part it feels as hopeless as Call of Cthulhu. The books may discuss retirement, but the corebook doesn't. You go until you die or go insane or are burned for heresy.

But, you have a good point with pushing the Dark Eldar off the planet - having players that aren't too tied to PCs lets them see the cost of victory in a new light. If they succeed, then they're the survivors, but they know full well how many deaths it took to get to that point. I'm not sure if that would quite be my style, but I like the idea of it.

Indeed. In my opinion, this is actually more heroic than even the Space Marines . Because with genetic enhancements, hypno-indoctrination and self-medicating power armour, anyone can be a show-off on the fields of battle. Here's your lasgun and a flak-vest, now you try to hold the line!

Yeah, and this is something that I like! My friend Evan is obsessed with Space Marines the same way he's obsessed with Superman and Viking Berserkers; he's fascinated by characters that are just super strong and powerful and has no real interest in playing inferior people, classes, or roles. I like the idea that you're mortal, and I do feel like it's more heroic, I'm just still a little on the fence as to how often I want to remind my players that they do, in fact, need their internal organs.

So from a experienced GM, and a imperial guard player who has read most if not all the novels I can find about the guard, you have a couple trains of thought that is common. The question is your the gm, you make the game how you want to make it. If you want to rail road the game and control everything or if you want to have a more open experience guided by the players, then that's up to you.

What we hear and see alot of guardsmen dying in there droves that a titan can whip an entire regiment from the face of existence with out as much as a thought from it's pilots , that to take a machine gun nest we must follow the first world war style of trench combat where one must charge with bayonet fixed screaming and one of you will be able to take it down. Space marines that can rip open tanks, or Eldar that move so fast that you just can not hit them. The ever watchful eye of the Commissar.

People think that every guardsmen is forced into duty, because it is of pain of death if they do not serve. The darkness of the Imperium and it's crawl dictators. But What ive found in the lore, that no matter how bad the imperium is, the xenos and Heratic are almost always worse.

You have to remember for the majority of the imperial citizens, the god emperor is a God. Think about it through out history, how many wars have been started over a god. Beliefs, how much blood has been spilt, and how many people are willing to give that blood in the name of there god?

[...]

Is it fear and oppression that keep guardsmen fighting? or is it there faith? Faith is a very powerful thing, and a very real world thing.

I'm Of the school of thought that it's faith that guides my guardsmen I gm for, and in my gming I try to install that.

I think alot of people tend to do the hole, "you dnt fight for who ever you fight for each other" you know band of brothers style, which is good, but I think What alot of people lack, even in dark heresy, is faith...

Thanks for taking the time to write all that out! From what I've heard from other players, you're right - faith is kind of underutilized as a motivation. And it should be a powerful one. I feel like your approach is kind of a good balance between the grim darkness and turning it into an episode of Firefly.

From what I've read, how much faith actually matters seems to depend on who's writing. Some people portray the Ecclesiarchy as basically, again, the worst (and largely fictitious) elements of the medieval Catholic church. In reality, the Catholic church was one of the few things actually holding Western civilization together and providing a common front and basis for peace, but they definitely got a little overzealous and, you know, killed a lot of people. Some writers seem to play it straight, and have faith and the church legitimately matter and shield people, and others seem to write the Ecclesiarchy as an uncaring body of pyromaniacs with very specific fuel requirements, with some whippings and a lot of torture thrown in for good measure.

I like the idea of Sisters Repentia, where they feel like they've failed in some way and must redeem themselves. But again, some people seem to portray the Sisters of Battle as being an overzealous murderous organization where if you don't murder enough you get strapped into a murder machine powered by your own screams of torment. And others portray them as actually sane . I tend more towards the sane side of the spectrum.

Funny way to put this but this is exactly how it would happen. Space marines don't rescue common people. They can rescue high value targets like tech priest magos or something similar .. Quoting Avitus from DoW2 "We are his angels of death not angels of mercy"

Yeah, this is kind of what I'm referring to! There are always situations in war where you can't rescue everyone, and I wouldn't expect Space Marines to adapt a "No Man Left Behind!" creed and scour the battlefield looking for bodies, but having them just not care about human lives seems a little dark for me - and also the kind of thing that varies somewhat depending on who's writing.

Some nice, riveting speeches. I think one thing on the hope question you'll need to deal with is "who do they seek hope for?" I have a sneaky thought that they are looking at it from hope as players. If they want a game where their characters will likely survive, fighting a fairly-balanced opponent, using real tactics, and see the game climax when they topple the Big Baddy at the end of things, and become Celebrated Heroes!, this might not be their game.

I have to disagree. It all depends on how you see the setting. In a few novels characters came back and are celebrated as heroes. Despite all grimdark in 40k it is a heroic setting where mighty space marines kill evil chaos worshipers. Where heroic guardsman like Straken or Caiphas Cain can turn the tide of battle. Where a few hundred guardsman can stop a million orks etc. In the end it comes down to how players group see the setting. If it will be less grimdark it is still 40k, same if someone want to make it even more grimdark. This is true to all settings. To each his own. Heroic imperial guard making universe better is just as valid as imperial guard cannon fodder where nobody lives more than 11 hours.

If you've ever read Band of Brothers (WWII nonfiction), it's not a very hopeful place they find themselves in a lot of the time. The difference between death and life is sometimes just where you dug your foxhole, and a lot of people die in pretty terrible ways (also comically tragic ways, like the guy who couldn't hold it any longer on a night attack, pulled his pants down, and a German sniper saw his white butt in the moonlight and shot him). But they coped. They fought on.

I'm okay with PCs dying. I'm okay with high casualties. And I'm okay with them not taking down a hive fleet by themselves. But the impression you get from the corebook is basically that they get loaded up, taken some place, ground down until they're dead, and then replaced with reinforcements that have no idea what's going on, and the only reason the whole front doesn't collapse is because if it did they'd all die anyway from their own commissars, and the only reason why reinforcements come is because they don't have a clue how horrific it is. The Spinward Front is basically a shield made up of interlocked meat.

And I guess on some level I'm not okay with that.

We are getting awfully close to what cyberpunk novels predicted. Only difference is that the Japanese don't rule the world.

And androids might be still a bit off, they are working on AI for sexdolls... Yeah that won't go horribly wrong at all.

Femputer sentences them... to death by snu snu!

Hope is Tzeench's domain. Food for thought, there, I think...

I've also read somewhere that it's also part of Nurgle, that whole positve vibe from new stuff growing frow decaying stuff...

However that does mean you really can't fight chaos. Everytime your priests/commisars rally the troops and tell them to hang in there, and hope for victory...They are only making the chaos gods stronger!

That's the idea. You can't fight chaos and will never win since every extreme human emotion, every belief that chaos gods exist (even if you oppose them) makes them stronger. Emperor tried to destroy chaos and look how it worked

This is the side of the universe that I'm not a huge fan of. I'm okay with impossible odds and never-ending war. But it seems like some writers delight in making it so dark that nothing anyone does actually matters . That's exactly what I mean when I said that I don't feel like there's much hope in the universe. Some stories make it sound like all you can do is die to delay the inevitable.

I guess I like the aspect more where yeah, you're probably going to die in this place, far from home, but your sacrifice means something in the grand scheme of things - even if you're just buying a little more time for the God Emperor to return. I'm okay with the world being very, very dark - but if my PCs are going to die, I want it to be for a cause, and if they rally, I don't want that to just be more fuel for Tzeench.

But, it's awesome getting everyone's perspective out here. I appreciate all the replies and opinions!

Yeah, and that seems to be how the RPG books really push it. There are moments of levity (like the Cadian Infantryman's Voxless Communication Module or whatever it's called, where they spend four paragraphs describing it, and eventually you realize it's a pen), but for the most part it feels as hopeless as Call of Cthulhu. The books may discuss retirement, but the corebook doesn't. You go until you die or go insane or are burned for heresy.

But, you have a good point with pushing the Dark Eldar off the planet - having players that aren't too tied to PCs lets them see the cost of victory in a new light. If they succeed, then they're the survivors, but they know full well how many deaths it took to get to that point. I'm not sure if that would quite be my style, but I like the idea of it.

"Guardsmen should know that when they die they shall sit on the Emperor's right hand. And if that is not enough then they are heretics and should be execured with holy fire!" - Not my character's words but by those of our squads ministorum priest.

Now personaly I still don't like it when my characters die, but having your relgiously fanatic buddy giving his in character pep talk like he really means it does work. I was almost right behind him when he led his sentinel into a traitor heavy weapons platoon, before i figured out I'd better provide fire support. And then the traitor hive started to colapse...

The books may discuss retirement, but the corebook doesn't. You go until you die or go insane or are burned for heresy.

This most likely depends upon a regiment's homeworld and it's traditions considering such service. While Krieg's Death Korps and Vostroyan Firstborn are almost certainly serve for the remainder of their lifetime, the others may actually enjoy being granted the Right of Settlement (1-st Kronus regiment from Dawn of War Dark Crusade is the result of bestowing of such right) or even have the options of being honorably discharged to go to their homeworld. If they want to, really, becuase well, serving in rear-line or heavy artillery regiment may actually be better than going back to some underhive region of hive city.