There you have another version of the tractor beam:

Tractor Beam Weapon

Cannon, TIE Defender only

Attack 3, Range 1-2

If this attack hits, the defender is assigned an ion token and a stress token;

then cancel all dice results; and you may perform a primary weapon attack.

Cost: 7

A. Tractor Beams weren't limited to Defenders.

B. Defenders carried Tractor Beams and Ion Cannons. Making the Tractor Beam a cannon means it can only have one.

Personally, I would like it if the Tractor Beam made it so that it made a ship's Green maneuvers were White, White maneuvers were Red, and Red maneuvers were disabled.

That way, the ship could still maneuver somewhat, but not without taking Stress.

The only reason why I put there TIE Defender only was to make it a "price fix", by having the low price of 7 points. Because even when it looks expensive, that version I proposed brings much more to the table than the Heavy Laser Cannon.

I have always wanted the Tractor Beam to be a Systems upgrade, and so the T/D should get a Systems upgrade slot. But that makes it too much like the T/A fix, and it's popular knowledge that FFG doesn't repeat themselves.

And seriously nobody would want to equip both the ion cannon and my proposed tractor beam, as the beam would have the same effect (actually better) than an ion shot.

Actually, the Defender would have been 3/3/3/8 if it went by the 200SBD shields that it had in the original TIE Fighter game, or 3/3/3/4 going by the nerfed version (100 SBD Shields, and significantly lower maneuverability) in X-wing Alliance and later.

But those stats are from the TIE Fighter game, major. And the T/D there had the same shield rating than the B-Wing. As I said, it was a beast, but not as much as our memory seems to colorize it.

I actually have no idea what rating it had in XWA.

SBD is the in universe term Star Wars uses to measure shield strength. It's not necessarily the same as the shield rating the ships had in the game files themselves.

There you have another version of the tractor beam:

Tractor Beam Weapon

Cannon, TIE Defender only

Attack 3, Range 1-2

If this attack hits, the defender is assigned an ion token and a stress token;

then cancel all dice results; and you may perform a primary weapon attack.

Cost: 7

A. Tractor Beams weren't limited to Defenders.

B. Defenders carried Tractor Beams and Ion Cannons. Making the Tractor Beam a cannon means it can only have one.

Personally, I would like it if the Tractor Beam made it so that it made a ship's Green maneuvers were White, White maneuvers were Red, and Red maneuvers were disabled.

That way, the ship could still maneuver somewhat, but not without taking Stress.

The only reason why I put there TIE Defender only was to make it a "price fix", by having the low price of 7 points. Because even when it looks expensive, that version I proposed brings much more to the table than the Heavy Laser Cannon.

I have always wanted the Tractor Beam to be a Systems upgrade, and so the T/D should get a Systems upgrade slot. But that makes it too much like the T/A fix, and it's popular knowledge that FFG doesn't repeat themselves.

And seriously nobody would want to equip both the ion cannon and my proposed tractor beam, as the beam would have the same effect (actually better) than an ion shot.

Actually, the Defender would have been 3/3/3/8 if it went by the 200SBD shields that it had in the original TIE Fighter game, or 3/3/3/4 going by the nerfed version (100 SBD Shields, and significantly lower maneuverability) in X-wing Alliance and later.

But those stats are from the TIE Fighter game, major. And the T/D there had the same shield rating than the B-Wing. As I said, it was a beast, but not as much as our memory seems to colorize it.

I actually have no idea what rating it had in XWA.

Yup - I remember discussing it with someone who was replaying the Tie Fighter game - and he concluded that the 200 SBD figure was a misprint - and based on actual gameplay, it has to be 100.

A. Tractor Beams weren't limited to Defenders.

B. Defenders carried Tractor Beams and Ion Cannons. Making the Tractor Beam a cannon means it can only have one.

Personally, I would like it if the Tractor Beam made it so that it made a ship's Green maneuvers were White, White maneuvers were Red, and Red maneuvers were disabled.

That way, the ship could still maneuver somewhat, but not without taking Stress.

Uh-huh. And (since you appear to have ruled out making the Tractor Beam a cannon) how would the tractor beam mechanic work?

The reason I ask is because - combined with a Flechette Cannon - that sounds pretty OP to me.

Actually, the Defender would have been 3/3/3/8 if it went by the 200SBD shields that it had in the original TIE Fighter game, or 3/3/3/4 going by the nerfed version (100 SBD Shields, and significantly lower maneuverability) in X-wing Alliance and later.

But those stats are from the TIE Fighter game, major. And the T/D there had the same shield rating than the B-Wing. As I said, it was a beast, but not as much as our memory seems to colorize it.

I actually have no idea what rating it had in XWA.

The B-wing is 125 SBD, which matches at 25 SBD = 1 FFG X-wing token, which is the same scale that FFG uses on just about all the other small ships as well. The Defender had 200 SBD, not 125 SBD, so would be 8 tokens.

Yup - I remember discussing it with someone who was replaying the Tie Fighter game - and he concluded that the 200 SBD figure was a misprint - and based on actual gameplay, it has to be 100.

Hm, I'm not so sure of that. I remember the Defender being able to absorb significantly more direct shots from Advanced Concussion Missiles than the TIE Advanced (edit - Avenger), which was only rated at 100 SBD.

TIE/D in XWA and later games was nerfed to 100 SBD, along with its maneuverability that went from around 175 units, to around 110 or so - similiar to a TIE Interceptor post-nerf. The shield recharge rate was also doubled in one or both versions - that I can't remember exactly.

Uh-huh. And (since you appear to have ruled out making the Tractor Beam a cannon) how would the tractor beam mechanic work?

I wanna say a...System upgrade?

Throw a System slot on that Tie/x7 Title I mentioned earlier.

Hm, I'm not so sure of that. I remember the Defender being able to absorb significantly more direct shots from Advanced Concussion Missiles than the TIE Advanced, which was only rated at 100 SBD.

TIE/D in XWA and later games was nerfed to 100 SBD, along with its maneuverability that went from around 175 units, to around 110 or so - similiar to a TIE Interceptor post-nerf. The shield recharge rate was also doubled in one or both versions - that I can't remember exactly.

And the TIE Advanced was also wrong - it should have been 50 SBD - as in that table previously quoted.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18704752&postcount=42

Tractor beams are something Alex Davy said he wanted to add, but they haven't been able to design them in a way they like.

This description of the stats from the TIE Fighter game:

These are the stats taken from the game files:

Name			Shields	Hull	Length	Speed	LIMGTW	Special
A-wing			50	16	10	120	2 2
Assault Gunboat		100	30	15	90	222
B-wing			100	62	15	90	332
Combat Utility Vehicle		7	15	35	22	repair/rearm
Missile Boat		120	20	15	125	1 4
R-41 Starchaser		30	15	15	100	22
T-wing			20	15	10	110	2
Tie Advanced		50	15	10	145	4 2
Tie Bomber			30	10	80	2 2
Tie Defender		100	15	10	155	422
Tie Fighter			10	10	100	2
Tie Interceptor			17	10	110	4
Transport		80	40	20	55	22	repair/rearm
Tug				5	5	10		repair/rearm
Tyderian Shuttle	100	25	20	65	4
X-wing			50	21	15	100	4 2
Y-wing			75	42	20	80	222
Z-95 Headhunter		20	15	15	95	2 2

suggests that the Defender (and the B-Wing, and the Shuttle) should be twice as heavily shielded as the X-Wing - whereas the TIE Advanced/Avenger should only have shielding equal to an X-Wing's.

If the stats here are any indication, some ships have been significantly improved in some ways, in the miniatures game - and nerfed in other ways.

Improvements:

Headhunters - go from having half an X-Wing's shields, to having an X-wing's shields

TIE interceptors and TIE Defenders - go from having comparable Hull to a Headhunter, to having comparable Hull to an X-Wing

TIE Fighters go from having half as much Hull as X-wings, to having as much Hull as X-wings

B-wings and Shuttles - go from having double an X-Wing's shields, to having 2.5x an X-wing's shields

TIE Bombers - go from having 1.5x as much Hull as an X-wing, to having 2x as much hull.

Shuttles go from 1.25x as much Hull as X-wings, to 1.66x as much

Nerfs:

Y-Wings have been reduced in Hull strength- no longer do they have 2x as much Hull as X-wings - only 1.66x as much

B-Wings have gone from having almost 3x as much Hull as X-wings, to having only as much Hull as X-wings

Defenders have been reduced in Shielding - 1.5x as much as X-wings instead of 2x as much

So the Headhunter has received a Shield boost. The Defender has received a Hull boost, but a Shield nerf. The B-wing has received a Shield boost, but a major Hull nerf. The TIE Fighter, TIE bomber, and TIE Interceptor have all received a Hull boost. The Shuttle has received a Hull and a Shield boost. And so forth.

The idea of the Defender having 4x as much Shielding as the X-wing seems a little questionable somehow.

Defender title

0

After declaring a target, you may perform both a primary and 2ndary attack against that target.

When performing a primary attack that hits, cancel all dice results and the defender suffers 1 damage

Ultimately, though, all they'd really need is thrusters

Hm, I'm not so sure of that. I remember the Defender being able to absorb significantly more direct shots from Advanced Concussion Missiles than the TIE Advanced, which was only rated at 100 SBD.

TIE/D in XWA and later games was nerfed to 100 SBD, along with its maneuverability that went from around 175 units, to around 110 or so - similiar to a TIE Interceptor post-nerf. The shield recharge rate was also doubled in one or both versions - that I can't remember exactly.

And the TIE Advanced was also wrong - it should have been 50 SBD - as in that table previously quoted.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18704752&postcount=42

I spent a bit of time this evening doing a load of experimentation.

For twenty years, I have worked on the basis that the T/D as of TIE Fighter was a superlative fighter, so powerful it was broken for multiplayer, nearly at the pinnicle of the Empire's fighter program.

Now I'm not so sure.

What shields does a T/D have? XWA gave it 100, but TIE always said it was 200.

The problem is, as I've been experimenting - I don't think that's actually TRUE.

I've been running some test in TIE between the GUN, T/A, T/D and MISS, going into some of the early training missions and fiddling around with the power and timing it.

Some things of note.

1) The GUN and T/D take about 7-8 minutes to recharge from zero to maximum shields on full recharge. The MISS takes about 10... and the T/A takes about four.

2) All vessels recharge all their cannons from zero to full in about 32 seconds at maximum recharge.

3) The GUN takes 5 full cannon charge tracks to bring it from zero to maximum shields. The T/A takes two-and-a-half, the T/D 3.5 and the MISS 6.

(Incidently, this proves that shield recharge above normal is absolutely pointless, as cannon => shields is much faster.)

I also attempted to get shot with one (regular) missile at full shields.

Both the GUN and the T/D were taken down to red on the outer layer. The MISS, when shot by an advanced missile, goes down to green on the inner layer. (I hadn't contrived to get a missle shot at a T/A yet.)

This would be consistent with the layers being 50/50 (that is 50/50 in the front arc and 50/50 in the rear arc), being reduced to 20/50 in the former pair and 60/60 to 0/60 in the latter.

I also made sure I shot a a fully-shielded T/D (on T/D mission one, where I could obligingly get one to stop for me). It reduced the shields to 96%. After it had recharged, a single advanced missile hit reduced it's shields to 40%.

I know from prior experimentation that a single shot is about 4 damage in XWA, and like the warhead damage, that hasn't changed from the earlier games.

The evidence is somewhat worrying.

A T/D takes 4 damage and goes to 96%, and takes 60 damage and goes to 40%. Which it can only do if it had 100 SBD shields. Notably, it has the same recharge time asthe GUN, and appears to show the same amount of shield loss as they GUN when hit by a regular missile.

Notably, the GUN's 5 full recharges (x 4 guns) => twenty, and the T/D's approx 3.5 recharges (x 6 guns) => 21... which suggests accounting for the rounding, it is twenty. The same.

The T/A, on the other hand, takes half as long to charge it's shields. This suggests either it has half the shields of the GUN and T/D, or has some sort of fast recharge.

I went and experimented with the T/A in T/A mission one and got hi by a missile. Which reduced the shields to green on the inner layer. So it appears it has less shields than the T/D and GUN... Indeed, the amount of damage taken would seem to support a 50SBD shield (25/25 => 0/20).

I haven't checked yet to see if difficulty levels make any difference (I'm playing on hard mode). I suspect they don't because I was doing a let's play of TIE and Battle 1 mission 5 and the X-Wings were hittin my GUN with advanced missiles and reducing the shields to yellow on the inner (consistent with 50/50 =>0/40) on medium as well, I'm pretty sure. (I will have to check.)

If the warhead damage is the same, though, it's pretty conclusive as far as I can experimentally determine. The GUN and the T/D appear to have the same shields... which is twice that of the T/A. Contrary to everything TIE Fighter said.

(Incidently, I can see no evidence for either TIE of any supposed "rapid recharge" shielding.)

This would also explain how you can KO a T/D with a pair of advanced missiles or a single advanced torpedo. (Which even at the time I thought was odd, since that should really have only reduced the shields to 40% and 25% respectively for a 200 SBD shield.)

The Missileboat, on the other hand, does appear to display consistency with a 120SBD (+20% recharge times in both forms of recharge, plus the evidence of the missile hits.)

So, XvT (and XWA) may actually not have modified the shields of the T/A and T/D much at all - they may have just corrected them to what they appear to have ACTUALLY been, not what TIE told us they were.

(I don't know how I didn't notice this two decade ago, really, or how anyone else hasn't!)

I'm a bit disheartened, really, since I have spent twenty years cheering on the T/D (and T/A) as ridiculously awesome and having to be toned down for the sake of cowardly rebels in the later games... To find out that, actually, it has been wrong since the start.

What is not clear is why the given values in TIE are wrong - and they're stated wrong in several places, so it's more than just one typo, and whether the intention was to have the T/A and GUN at 100 and the T/D at 200 or what.

Fascinating, thanks for the link! I had never heard of that before.

I really thought that the TIE Avenger had more shields than the X-wing though.... weird. Someday I will have to reinstall TIE Fighter and verify that, because I could have sworn that the TIE Avenger had more shields than the X-wing.

Hm, I'm not so sure of that. I remember the Defender being able to absorb significantly more direct shots from Advanced Concussion Missiles than the TIE Advanced, which was only rated at 100 SBD.

TIE/D in XWA and later games was nerfed to 100 SBD, along with its maneuverability that went from around 175 units, to around 110 or so - similiar to a TIE Interceptor post-nerf. The shield recharge rate was also doubled in one or both versions - that I can't remember exactly.

And the TIE Advanced was also wrong - it should have been 50 SBD - as in that table previously quoted.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18704752&postcount=42

I spent a bit of time this evening doing a load of experimentation.[/size]

For twenty years, I have worked on the basis that the T/D as of TIE Fighter was a superlative fighter, so powerful it was broken for multiplayer, nearly at the pinnicle of the Empire's fighter program.[/size]Now I'm not so sure.[/size]What shields does a T/D have? XWA gave it 100, but TIE always said it was 200.[/size]The problem is, as I've been experimenting - I don't think that's actually TRUE. [/size]I've been running some test in TIE between the GUN, T/A, T/D and MISS, going into some of the early training missions and fiddling around with the power and timing it.[/size]Some things of note.[/size]1) The GUN and T/D take about 7-8 minutes to recharge from zero to maximum shields on full recharge. The MISS takes about 10... and the T/A takes about four.[/size]2) All vessels recharge all their cannons from zero to full in about 32 seconds at maximum recharge.[/size]3) The GUN takes 5 full cannon charge tracks to bring it from zero to maximum shields. The T/A takes two-and-a-half, the T/D 3.5 and the MISS 6.[/size](Incidently, this proves that shield recharge above normal is absolutely pointless, as cannon => shields is much faster.)[/size]I also attempted to get shot with one (regular) missile at full shields.[/size]Both the GUN and the T/D were taken down to red on the outer layer. The MISS, when shot by an advanced missile, goes down to green on the inner layer. (I hadn't contrived to get a missle shot at a T/A yet.)[/size]This would be consistent with the layers being 50/50 (that is 50/50 in the front arc and 50/50 in the rear arc), being reduced to 20/50 in the former pair and 60/60 to 0/60 in the latter.[/size]I also made sure I shot a a fully-shielded T/D (on T/D mission one, where I could obligingly get one to stop for me). It reduced the shields to 96%. After it had recharged, a single advanced missile hit reduced it's shields to 40%.[/size]I know from prior experimentation that a single shot is about 4 damage in XWA, and like the warhead damage, that hasn't changed from the earlier games.[/size]The evidence is somewhat worrying.[/size]A T/D takes 4 damage and goes to 96%, and takes 60 damage and goes to 40%. Which it can only do if it had 100 SBD shields. Notably, it has the same recharge time asthe GUN, and appears to show the same amount of shield loss as they GUN when hit by a regular missile.[/size]Notably, the GUN's 5 full recharges (x 4 guns) => twenty, and the T/D's approx 3.5 recharges (x 6 guns) => 21... which suggests accounting for the rounding, it is twenty. The same.[/size]The T/A, on the other hand, takes half as long to charge it's shields. This suggests either it has half the shields of the GUN and T/D, or has some sort of fast recharge.[/size]I went and experimented with the T/A in T/A mission one and got hi by a missile. Which reduced the shields to green on the inner layer. So it appears it has less shields than the T/D and GUN... Indeed, the amount of damage taken would seem to support a 50SBD shield (25/25 => 0/20).[/size]I haven't checked yet to see if difficulty levels make any difference (I'm playing on hard mode). I suspect they don't because I was doing a let's play of TIE and Battle 1 mission 5 and the X-Wings were hittin my GUN with advanced missiles and reducing the shields to yellow on the inner (consistent with 50/50 =>0/40) on medium as well, I'm pretty sure. (I will have to check.)[/size]If the warhead damage is the same, though, it's pretty conclusive as far as I can experimentally determine. The GUN and the T/D appear to have the same shields... which is twice that of the T/A. Contrary to everything TIE Fighter said.[/size](Incidently, I can see no evidence for either TIE of any supposed "rapid recharge" shielding.)[/size]This would also explain how you can KO a T/D with a pair of advanced missiles or a single advanced torpedo. (Which even at the time I thought was odd, since that should really have only reduced the shields to 40% and 25% respectively for a 200 SBD shield.)[/size]The Missileboat, on the other hand, does appear to display consistency with a 120SBD (+20% recharge times in both forms of recharge, plus the evidence of the missile hits.)[/size]So, XvT (and XWA) may actually not have modified the shields of the T/A and T/D much at all - they may have just corrected them to what they appear to have ACTUALLY been, not what TIE told us they were.[/size](I don't know how I didn't notice this two decade ago, really, or how anyone else hasn't!)[/size]I'm a bit disheartened, really, since I have spent twenty years cheering on the T/D (and T/A) as ridiculously awesome and having to be toned down for the sake of cowardly rebels in the later games... To find out that, actually, it has been wrong since the start.[/size]What is not clear is why the given values in TIE are wrong - and they're stated wrong in several places, so it's more than just one typo, and whether the intention was to have the T/A and GUN at 100 and the T/D at 200 or what.

[/size]

Fascinating, thanks for the link! I had never heard of that before.

I really thought that the TIE Avenger had more shields than the X-wing though.... weird. Someday I will have to reinstall TIE Fighter and verify that, because I could have sworn that the TIE Avenger had more shields than the X-wing.

Why wait I've replayed tie fighter recently and had a blast.

Time.

Hm, I'm not so sure of that. I remember the Defender being able to absorb significantly more direct shots from Advanced Concussion Missiles than the TIE Advanced, which was only rated at 100 SBD.

TIE/D in XWA and later games was nerfed to 100 SBD, along with its maneuverability that went from around 175 units, to around 110 or so - similiar to a TIE Interceptor post-nerf. The shield recharge rate was also doubled in one or both versions - that I can't remember exactly.

And the TIE Advanced was also wrong - it should have been 50 SBD - as in that table previously quoted.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18704752&postcount=42

I spent a bit of time this evening doing a load of experimentation.[/size]

For twenty years, I have worked on the basis that the T/D as of TIE Fighter was a superlative fighter, so powerful it was broken for multiplayer, nearly at the pinnicle of the Empire's fighter program.[/size]Now I'm not so sure.[/size]What shields does a T/D have? XWA gave it 100, but TIE always said it was 200.[/size]The problem is, as I've been experimenting - I don't think that's actually TRUE. [/size]I've been running some test in TIE between the GUN, T/A, T/D and MISS, going into some of the early training missions and fiddling around with the power and timing it.[/size]Some things of note.[/size]1) The GUN and T/D take about 7-8 minutes to recharge from zero to maximum shields on full recharge. The MISS takes about 10... and the T/A takes about four.[/size]2) All vessels recharge all their cannons from zero to full in about 32 seconds at maximum recharge.[/size]3) The GUN takes 5 full cannon charge tracks to bring it from zero to maximum shields. The T/A takes two-and-a-half, the T/D 3.5 and the MISS 6.[/size](Incidently, this proves that shield recharge above normal is absolutely pointless, as cannon => shields is much faster.)[/size]I also attempted to get shot with one (regular) missile at full shields.[/size]Both the GUN and the T/D were taken down to red on the outer layer. The MISS, when shot by an advanced missile, goes down to green on the inner layer. (I hadn't contrived to get a missle shot at a T/A yet.)[/size]This would be consistent with the layers being 50/50 (that is 50/50 in the front arc and 50/50 in the rear arc), being reduced to 20/50 in the former pair and 60/60 to 0/60 in the latter.[/size]I also made sure I shot a a fully-shielded T/D (on T/D mission one, where I could obligingly get one to stop for me). It reduced the shields to 96%. After it had recharged, a single advanced missile hit reduced it's shields to 40%.[/size]I know from prior experimentation that a single shot is about 4 damage in XWA, and like the warhead damage, that hasn't changed from the earlier games.[/size]The evidence is somewhat worrying.[/size]A T/D takes 4 damage and goes to 96%, and takes 60 damage and goes to 40%. Which it can only do if it had 100 SBD shields. Notably, it has the same recharge time asthe GUN, and appears to show the same amount of shield loss as they GUN when hit by a regular missile.[/size]Notably, the GUN's 5 full recharges (x 4 guns) => twenty, and the T/D's approx 3.5 recharges (x 6 guns) => 21... which suggests accounting for the rounding, it is twenty. The same.[/size]The T/A, on the other hand, takes half as long to charge it's shields. This suggests either it has half the shields of the GUN and T/D, or has some sort of fast recharge.[/size]I went and experimented with the T/A in T/A mission one and got hi by a missile. Which reduced the shields to green on the inner layer. So it appears it has less shields than the T/D and GUN... Indeed, the amount of damage taken would seem to support a 50SBD shield (25/25 => 0/20).[/size]I haven't checked yet to see if difficulty levels make any difference (I'm playing on hard mode). I suspect they don't because I was doing a let's play of TIE and Battle 1 mission 5 and the X-Wings were hittin my GUN with advanced missiles and reducing the shields to yellow on the inner (consistent with 50/50 =>0/40) on medium as well, I'm pretty sure. (I will have to check.)[/size]If the warhead damage is the same, though, it's pretty conclusive as far as I can experimentally determine. The GUN and the T/D appear to have the same shields... which is twice that of the T/A. Contrary to everything TIE Fighter said.[/size](Incidently, I can see no evidence for either TIE of any supposed "rapid recharge" shielding.)[/size]This would also explain how you can KO a T/D with a pair of advanced missiles or a single advanced torpedo. (Which even at the time I thought was odd, since that should really have only reduced the shields to 40% and 25% respectively for a 200 SBD shield.)[/size]The Missileboat, on the other hand, does appear to display consistency with a 120SBD (+20% recharge times in both forms of recharge, plus the evidence of the missile hits.)[/size]So, XvT (and XWA) may actually not have modified the shields of the T/A and T/D much at all - they may have just corrected them to what they appear to have ACTUALLY been, not what TIE told us they were.[/size](I don't know how I didn't notice this two decade ago, really, or how anyone else hasn't!)[/size]I'm a bit disheartened, really, since I have spent twenty years cheering on the T/D (and T/A) as ridiculously awesome and having to be toned down for the sake of cowardly rebels in the later games... To find out that, actually, it has been wrong since the start.[/size]What is not clear is why the given values in TIE are wrong - and they're stated wrong in several places, so it's more than just one typo, and whether the intention was to have the T/A and GUN at 100 and the T/D at 200 or what.

[/size]

Fascinating, thanks for the link! I had never heard of that before.

I really thought that the TIE Avenger had more shields than the X-wing though.... weird. Someday I will have to reinstall TIE Fighter and verify that, because I could have sworn that the TIE Avenger had more shields than the X-wing.

Why wait I've replayed tie fighter recently and had a blast.

Cant find a joystick for my laptop.

Fascinating, thanks for the link! I had never heard of that before.

I really thought that the TIE Avenger had more shields than the X-wing though.... weird. Someday I will have to reinstall TIE Fighter and verify that, because I could have sworn that the TIE Avenger had more shields than the X-wing.

Well, that guy went thru a long and tortuous path to find out the stats that can just be read, with the appropriate tool, from the game configuration file that feeds the numbers to the game engine. In the first version it was the Flight. Ovl file sitting in the game's directory.

I believe the devs tweaked these values during development until they felt happy with the game balance. However they forgot to update the text strings for the tech room.

The list I posted above is extracted from the game configuration file (by someone else), not from the tech room texts or any other sources, so those are the values that have actually being in effect all this time.

Hm, I'm not so sure of that. I remember the Defender being able to absorb significantly more direct shots from Advanced Concussion Missiles than the TIE Advanced, which was only rated at 100 SBD.

TIE/D in XWA and later games was nerfed to 100 SBD, along with its maneuverability that went from around 175 units, to around 110 or so - similiar to a TIE Interceptor post-nerf. The shield recharge rate was also doubled in one or both versions - that I can't remember exactly.

And the TIE Advanced was also wrong - it should have been 50 SBD - as in that table previously quoted.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18704752&postcount=42

I spent a bit of time this evening doing a load of experimentation.[/size]

For twenty years, I have worked on the basis that the T/D as of TIE Fighter was a superlative fighter, so powerful it was broken for multiplayer, nearly at the pinnicle of the Empire's fighter program.[/size]Now I'm not so sure.[/size]What shields does a T/D have? XWA gave it 100, but TIE always said it was 200.[/size]The problem is, as I've been experimenting - I don't think that's actually TRUE. [/size]I've been running some test in TIE between the GUN, T/A, T/D and MISS, going into some of the early training missions and fiddling around with the power and timing it.[/size]Some things of note.[/size]1) The GUN and T/D take about 7-8 minutes to recharge from zero to maximum shields on full recharge. The MISS takes about 10... and the T/A takes about four.[/size]2) All vessels recharge all their cannons from zero to full in about 32 seconds at maximum recharge.[/size]3) The GUN takes 5 full cannon charge tracks to bring it from zero to maximum shields. The T/A takes two-and-a-half, the T/D 3.5 and the MISS 6.[/size](Incidently, this proves that shield recharge above normal is absolutely pointless, as cannon => shields is much faster.)[/size]I also attempted to get shot with one (regular) missile at full shields.[/size]Both the GUN and the T/D were taken down to red on the outer layer. The MISS, when shot by an advanced missile, goes down to green on the inner layer. (I hadn't contrived to get a missle shot at a T/A yet.)[/size]This would be consistent with the layers being 50/50 (that is 50/50 in the front arc and 50/50 in the rear arc), being reduced to 20/50 in the former pair and 60/60 to 0/60 in the latter.[/size]I also made sure I shot a a fully-shielded T/D (on T/D mission one, where I could obligingly get one to stop for me). It reduced the shields to 96%. After it had recharged, a single advanced missile hit reduced it's shields to 40%.[/size]I know from prior experimentation that a single shot is about 4 damage in XWA, and like the warhead damage, that hasn't changed from the earlier games.[/size]The evidence is somewhat worrying.[/size]A T/D takes 4 damage and goes to 96%, and takes 60 damage and goes to 40%. Which it can only do if it had 100 SBD shields. Notably, it has the same recharge time asthe GUN, and appears to show the same amount of shield loss as they GUN when hit by a regular missile.[/size]Notably, the GUN's 5 full recharges (x 4 guns) => twenty, and the T/D's approx 3.5 recharges (x 6 guns) => 21... which suggests accounting for the rounding, it is twenty. The same.[/size]The T/A, on the other hand, takes half as long to charge it's shields. This suggests either it has half the shields of the GUN and T/D, or has some sort of fast recharge.[/size]I went and experimented with the T/A in T/A mission one and got hi by a missile. Which reduced the shields to green on the inner layer. So it appears it has less shields than the T/D and GUN... Indeed, the amount of damage taken would seem to support a 50SBD shield (25/25 => 0/20).[/size]I haven't checked yet to see if difficulty levels make any difference (I'm playing on hard mode). I suspect they don't because I was doing a let's play of TIE and Battle 1 mission 5 and the X-Wings were hittin my GUN with advanced missiles and reducing the shields to yellow on the inner (consistent with 50/50 =>0/40) on medium as well, I'm pretty sure. (I will have to check.)[/size]If the warhead damage is the same, though, it's pretty conclusive as far as I can experimentally determine. The GUN and the T/D appear to have the same shields... which is twice that of the T/A. Contrary to everything TIE Fighter said.[/size](Incidently, I can see no evidence for either TIE of any supposed "rapid recharge" shielding.)[/size]This would also explain how you can KO a T/D with a pair of advanced missiles or a single advanced torpedo. (Which even at the time I thought was odd, since that should really have only reduced the shields to 40% and 25% respectively for a 200 SBD shield.)[/size]The Missileboat, on the other hand, does appear to display consistency with a 120SBD (+20% recharge times in both forms of recharge, plus the evidence of the missile hits.)[/size]So, XvT (and XWA) may actually not have modified the shields of the T/A and T/D much at all - they may have just corrected them to what they appear to have ACTUALLY been, not what TIE told us they were.[/size](I don't know how I didn't notice this two decade ago, really, or how anyone else hasn't!)[/size]I'm a bit disheartened, really, since I have spent twenty years cheering on the T/D (and T/A) as ridiculously awesome and having to be toned down for the sake of cowardly rebels in the later games... To find out that, actually, it has been wrong since the start.[/size]What is not clear is why the given values in TIE are wrong - and they're stated wrong in several places, so it's more than just one typo, and whether the intention was to have the T/A and GUN at 100 and the T/D at 200 or what.

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Fascinating, thanks for the link! I had never heard of that before.

I really thought that the TIE Avenger had more shields than the X-wing though.... weird. Someday I will have to reinstall TIE Fighter and verify that, because I could have sworn that the TIE Avenger had more shields than the X-wing.

Why wait I've replayed tie fighter recently and had a blast.

Cant find a joystick for my laptop.

The older version is mouse compatible it's the 1998 that needs the joystick

Cant find a joystick for my laptop.

I was always a flightstick guy back in the day when games like that and Wing Commander were actually huge franchises.

But I gotta tell you, I've been playing those games again, and you can't go wrong with, like, an X-Box 360 controller for windows or other modern console controller. Sure, it's not authentic. But it just works really well.

I damned the day when it was announced that Freelancer got complete mouse controls...

I needed more fodder for my Microsoft Sidewinder II Force Feedback Pro! The best joystick ever, till today - but yeah - it isn't supported any longer of course.

With all those mouse and gamepad control mechanism I lost interest at space fight sim games over time. It just isn't the same. I never liked it. So like yeah the graphics are cool but I hate the controls so don't played it.

Also while flying I want to see the cockpit interiors and not the arse of my ship.

I damned the day when it was announced that Freelancer got complete mouse controls...

I needed more fodder for my Microsoft Sidewinder II Force Feedback Pro! The best joystick ever, till today - but yeah - it isn't supported any longer of course.

With all those mouse and gamepad control mechanism I lost interest at space fight sim games over time. It just isn't the same. I never liked it. So like yeah the graphics are cool but I hate the controls so don't played it.

Also while flying I want to see the cockpit interiors and not the arse of my ship.

I hear you, but I played thru Freelancer from the cockpit view. I think it was just pressing the V key. Long time since.

Anyway, it was playing at a disadvantage. Cannons in that game, and in many modern space sims, have a certain degree of freedom. They can shoot in an arc of fire (much like in this game, or even in the Star Wars movies, if you see Vader shooting down X-Wing in the Death Star trench), while in the X-Wing and in the TIE Fighter games, cannons only shot directly straight forward.

The mouse control and external view allowed you to quickly re-aim your cannons to the nearby ships and shoot at them, even when your ship wasn't directly looking at them. With a joystick that would have not been possible, or at least it would have been much harder.

Even when it's not the same, I agree with Mr DarthEnderX on the subject of game controllers. Any analog thumb stick is just good enough to fly in these games. I have recently gone thru the whole X-Wing Collector's CD-ROM for DOS with an old USB Logiteck Rumblepad 2, and it just plays fine. Much better than with a mouse. You just need to remap the buttons to the most needed keys (in my case, W, Backspace, [, ], ', S, R, X, \, F9 and F10).

Can't play it without a joystick. You'll have to pry my throttle and rudder controls out of my cold, dead hands.

Regarding the ion effect of the Defender:

Fire-linked Weapons Array

Defender only Upgrade (uses missile slot, cost 2pts)

"When you attack with either your primary attack or any cannon upgrade, after you deal damage and assign tokens, assign the defender 1 Ion token".

This "solves" the issue with the Defender not meeting the offensive fluff. It also means, that large based ships should fear this as the Ion Cannon becomes an even better upgrade against them.

But my main problem has never been with the Defender not meeting it's offensive fluff. At PS1 and 30pts, being able to make a white k-turn but sharp turns 1 and 2 are red??. If the Pilot skill had only been 2 higher for each, meeting the Phantom's, I would consider flying it more. The risk of running into Predator with a 30pts PS1 ship is just too risky and the ship is too weak for it's cost. When you have to fly first and shoot last, it's often easy for your opponent to position himself and now that every player and their mom are using Engine Upgrade you end up flying a 30pts target practice.

Enhanced training

Defender Delta and Onyx only upgrade, title (0 pts)

"Increase the Pilot Skill by 2".

One of the possible solutions, might also be giving the choice of an elite slot, like the A-Wing.

Advanced training

Defender only upgrade, title (1 pts)

"The Defender gains the Elite icon".

This would allow the Delta and Onyx to increase their lethality with either PtL or Predator and Vessery and Brath more options for their high points cost and "weak" ability.

The survivability of the Defender is a big issue when I've flown it, much like the Interceptor before the AT upgrade. With no real defensive capabilities it often falls prone to the more manoeuvrable ships, like the Aggressor or Firespray and turret'd ships.

Defender only upgrade, (2 pts)

"The Defender gains the Boost action icon. Each time you take a Boost action roll 1 Attack Die. On a crit receive one stress token. You can not equip other engine upgrade".

Now you increase the survivability of the Defender, as you can Boost AND equip Auto-Thruster, but involves a risk when taking the boost action, as the Defender doesn't like stress with its few green manoeuvres. Also leaves room for Hull or Shield Upgrade should you desire.

What I really would like though, is a 4pts cost reduction, plain and simple. It doesn't make the ship better, but allows me more flexibility with my squad compositions. It doesn't let me feel like I'm wasting my points and gives me more room for possible synergies with other ships.

You can't really talk about dropping a Defender in favor of the Firespray based on points. For one thing, the Defender is a much, much better cannon platform than the Firespray. If you're not using it for a cannon platform, then why are you even taking it?

And comparing the 30pt Defender to a 27 point Soontir is disingenuous. A naked Soontir is pretty awful. Soontir would be more like a 35pt build. A couple advantages a Defender has over an Interceptor is that an Interceptor can die with just one bad roll. A Defender will survive a single bad roll. An Interceptor will not survive being double-stressed. A Defender will be okay being double-stressed.

The Defender has some problems, but there are a lot of things coming out that will help a lot.

You can't really talk about dropping a Defender in favor of the Firespray based on points. For one thing, the Defender is a much, much better cannon platform than the Firespray. If you're not using it for a cannon platform, then why are you even taking it?

And comparing the 30pt Defender to a 27 point Soontir is disingenuous. A naked Soontir is pretty awful. Soontir would be more like a 35pt build. A couple advantages a Defender has over an Interceptor is that an Interceptor can die with just one bad roll. A Defender will survive a single bad roll. An Interceptor will not survive being double-stressed. A Defender will be okay being double-stressed.

The Defender has some problems, but there are a lot of things coming out that will help a lot.

I just ran two Delta's with HLC and Jonus for rerolls at a local tournament. Went 2-1-1. Fun to play, and when the dice are hot, it's just brutal.

That's what frustrates many players about the Defenders. They rely A LOT on dice and have very few ways of fixing that. Starting at 30 points, it can be a hard pill to swallow when you wiff with 4 red die or have all your shields destroyed in the first pass due to dice. It is a shame these guys don't have a system slot (for FCS) or some kind of built in ability to help.

The new TIE title will make PTL (and other stress actions) a possibility for the two named pilots. That should make things interesting.

PTL Rexler is nasty take it from me.

Vessery only needs it if stress givers are common in your meta.

Regarding the ion effect of the Defender:

Fire-linked Weapons Array

Defender only Upgrade (uses missile slot, cost 2pts)

"When you attack with either your primary attack or any cannon upgrade, after you deal damage and assign tokens, assign the defender 1 Ion token".

I like this idea a lot. I'd word it differently though.

Fire-linked Ion Cannon

1 point

Defender only. Modification.

When attacking with your primary weapon, if you have an Ion Cannon equipped, if your attack hits you may assign the defender 1 ion token.