The way I see it if you cannot fit 4 small ships of the one type into a list that ship type it is over costed...

Stopped reading here. A ship's stats, dial, actions and abilities have more to do with the points cost than base size. A Missile Boat would be a small based ship, and if their abilities and stats matched their performance in TIE Fighter, absolutely nobody would want to face four of them in a 100 point list...

Or to demonstrate how this "small base + > 25 points cost = overpriced" logic is fundamentally wrong...

If we ever get a ship like that I would change my mind about of 4 of 1 ship type in a list

or how I would like it to be fixed. When I look at the Defender I see a Delta worth 30 points but for 3 more I can take a FireSpray. Can only put 3 Defenders in a list with not a lot of upgrades, can put 3 FireSprays in a list and not care about upgrades. The way I see it if you cannot fit 4 small ships of the one type into a list that ship type it is over costed. since the points of a ship cannot really be changed we need to think of some other way to help what should be the scariest ship in the imperial navy out

Why not try a FREE Title that gives the Defender 5 free points to spend on secondary weapons. so a Delta could take a HLC for 2 points and all other cannons and Missiles free.

I don't think this would make them over powered as they still have a 1 & 2 sharp red and you could still only fit 3 of the in a list. 2 of them would be Deltas at PS 1. This could make them good Fat burners at 33 points (Delta Title HLC Twin Ion). Put 2 of them with Fel and I think it could be a good list. You could give them Mangler Cannon and pair them with the Tie Advanced for nothing but crit.

What do you think has someone suggested this before? is it over powered? or should I stay out of the sun for the rest of the day?

I would love to see you explain how 3 Bounty Hunters is overcosted.

Sorry must not have explained it right I think 33 points for a bounty hunter is spot on and at the moment I think why take deltas when you can take bounty hunters

The way I see it if you cannot fit 4 small ships of the one type into a list that ship type it is over costed...

Stopped reading here. A ship's stats, dial, actions and abilities have more to do with the points cost than base size. A Missile Boat would be a small based ship, and if their abilities and stats matched their performance in TIE Fighter, absolutely nobody would want to face four of them in a 100 point list...

Or to demonstrate how this "small base + > 25 points cost = overpriced" logic is fundamentally wrong...

Oooooo give it an ETP and I'll take 4 of em

Oh....no wait I won't.....

Sorry must not have explained it right I think 33 points for a bounty hunter is spot on and at the moment I think why take deltas when you can take bounty hunters

But they would be overcosted if you stuck them on the more advantageous small base?

If you say that any small ship over 25 points (that you cannot run four of) is overcosted any small ship over 25 points falls into that classification, regardless of statline, dial or abilities. A 26 point Falcon on a small base would be overcosted by that definition. The pilot card from earlier is by that definition overcosted as opposed to completely broken.

It's a fundamentally flawed metric because it deems ships overcosted without looking at anything on the card but the point cost. It treats the statline, even at 9/9/9/9, as irrelevant to its costing. It says that at a 4/4/4/4 statline the TIE defender is still overcosted.

And if you qualify the metric by restricting it to existing ships, then all you've said is that the TIE defender and generic E-wing cost too much. And that has nothing to do with base size or how many you can run, it's a simple case of costing too many points for what you get.

or how I would like it to be fixed. When I look at the Defender I see a Delta worth 30 points but for 3 more I can take a FireSpray. Can only put 3 Defenders in a list with not a lot of upgrades, can put 3 FireSprays in a list and not care about upgrades. The way I see it if you cannot fit 4 small ships of the one type into a list that ship type it is over costed. since the points of a ship cannot really be changed we need to think of some other way to help what should be the scariest ship in the imperial navy out

Why not try a FREE Title that gives the Defender 5 free points to spend on secondary weapons. so a Delta could take a HLC for 2 points and all other cannons and Missiles free.

I don't think this would make them over powered as they still have a 1 & 2 sharp red and you could still only fit 3 of the in a list. 2 of them would be Deltas at PS 1. This could make them good Fat burners at 33 points (Delta Title HLC Twin Ion). Put 2 of them with Fel and I think it could be a good list. You could give them Mangler Cannon and pair them with the Tie Advanced for nothing but crit.

What do you think has someone suggested this before? is it over powered? or should I stay out of the sun for the rest of the day?

I would love to see you explain how 3 Bounty Hunters is overcosted.

Sorry must not have explained it right I think 33 points for a bounty hunter is spot on and at the moment I think why take deltas when you can take bounty hunters

Because large basses are easier to hit, they have a harder time moving through asteroid fields, mercenaries can get blocked, no white k turn makes turning around harder,that's just a few off the differences.

Perhaps a solution would be a cost 0 title that says: "When you make a red maneuver assign one evade token to your ship". It would help the survivability of the ship without giving the defender itself. Like an Ysanne Isard.

Sorry must not have explained it right I think 33 points for a bounty hunter is spot on and at the moment I think why take deltas when you can take bounty hunters

But they would be overcosted if you stuck them on the more advantageous small base?

If you say that any small ship over 25 points (that you cannot run four of) is overcosted any small ship over 25 points falls into that classification, regardless of statline, dial or abilities. A 26 point Falcon on a small base would be overcosted by that definition. The pilot card from earlier is by that definition overcosted as opposed to completely broken.

It's a fundamentally flawed metric because it deems ships overcosted without looking at anything on the card but the point cost. It treats the statline, even at 9/9/9/9, as irrelevant to its costing. It says that at a 4/4/4/4 statline the TIE defender is still overcosted.

And if you qualify the metric by restricting it to existing ships, then all you've said is that the TIE defender and generic E-wing cost too much. And that has nothing to do with base size or how many you can run, it's a simple case of costing too many points for what you get.

Yes if you put a bounty hunter on a small base it would be over costed but it's not on a small base.

My "fundamental flawed metric" is based on what we have and what we know we will have not a overpowered ship we may one day have. My 4 in a list idea is an opinion only and I not asking anyone to share that opinion.

It was just a way for me to think of a fix. Instead of worrying about how my mind works I would really like to know what you think of my "fix" should a delta get a HLC for 2 point and everything free or is it just to powerful?

Sorry must not have explained it right I think 33 points for a bounty hunter is spot on and at the moment I think why take deltas when you can take bounty hunters

But they would be overcosted if you stuck them on the more advantageous small base?

If you say that any small ship over 25 points (that you cannot run four of) is overcosted any small ship over 25 points falls into that classification, regardless of statline, dial or abilities. A 26 point Falcon on a small base would be overcosted by that definition. The pilot card from earlier is by that definition overcosted as opposed to completely broken.

It's a fundamentally flawed metric because it deems ships overcosted without looking at anything on the card but the point cost. It treats the statline, even at 9/9/9/9, as irrelevant to its costing. It says that at a 4/4/4/4 statline the TIE defender is still overcosted.

And if you qualify the metric by restricting it to existing ships, then all you've said is that the TIE defender and generic E-wing cost too much. And that has nothing to do with base size or how many you can run, it's a simple case of costing too many points for what you get.

Yes if you put a bounty hunter on a small base it would be over costed

Seriously!?!

You think if a BH was on a small base at 33 points it would be over costed

Its stat line is far too good to be on a small base

At 33 points you are paying for the inconvenience of the large base

I do quite like the cannon discount but it is a little too easy of a 'fix'

As mentioned above, giving it a native Ion ability would be cool and thematic.

Title: For every two 'hit' or 'crits' you cancel, you may apply an Ion token (following normal Ion rules)

I do quite like the cannon discount but it is a little too easy of a 'fix'

As mentioned above, giving it a native Ion ability would be cool and thematic.

Title: For every two 'hit' or 'crits' you cancel, you may apply an Ion token (following normal Ion rules)

Who'd trade away two damage for an ion effect?

Defender XVY56: You may turn a [crit] result to a [hit] result. If you do, the target gains one ion token.

Whether this works with secondary weapons or not (Hello, manglers and autoblasters, and what happens with Ion cannons or HLC interactions?) is an interesting question.

I do quite like the cannon discount but it is a little too easy of a 'fix'

As mentioned above, giving it a native Ion ability would be cool and thematic.

Title: For every two 'hit' or 'crits' you cancel, you may apply an Ion token (following normal Ion rules)

Who'd trade away two damage for an ion effect?

You wouldn't be trading two hits for an Ion token, you'd be trading two hits for an Ion token plus the one damage they do standard

I do quite like the cannon discount but it is a little too easy of a 'fix'

As mentioned above, giving it a native Ion ability would be cool and thematic.

Title: For every two 'hit' or 'crits' you cancel, you may apply an Ion token (following normal Ion rules)

Who'd trade away two damage for an ion effect?

You wouldn't be trading two hits for an Ion token, you'd be trading two hits for an Ion token plus the one damage they do standard

That would require some explanation, because not all ion effects in the game deal one damage (like ion bombs).

What about something like a

Heavy Ion Cannon

Tie Defender only, Cannon

Attack 3, Range 1-3

If this attack hits, the defender gets 2 ion tokens; then cancel all (hit) results.

That would allow for some kind of extra damage, since (crit) result are not cancelled. Maybe it would combine well with Calculation or Markmanship.

Or maybe

Fire Linked Ion Cannon

Tie Defender only, Cannon

Attack 3, Range 1-3

If this attack hits, the defender gets one ion token.

This one is a mix between a primary attack and an ion attack. It deals normal damage, but also an ion token.

The problem is that it is maybe too good. Why attacking with the primary weapon when you could use this? Why ever taking the normal Ion Cannon instead?

At this point, half kidding, we could go for something like this:

Fuselage Rebalancing

Modification

Cost -1

This card doesn't count for your limit of equipped Modification cards.

Go to http://fantasyflightgame.com/xwing/cost_rebalancing.pdf or check the Tournament's Rebalancing Sheet. Look up for the ship type you have equipped this modification to. There you can check how many times you can equip this card on this ship.

And then that sheet would have a list of ship types and numbers. Kept up to date by the game designers.

You wouldn't be trading two hits for an Ion token, you'd be trading two hits for an Ion token plus the one damage they do standard

Wouldn't it then be simpler to trade one hit for an ion token?

Yes if you put a bounty hunter on a small base it would be over costed but it's not on a small base.

...

Well, in that case the TIE defender fix is easy. Stick it on a large base.

If you think that, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what overcosted means, which in turn makes me wonder if you understand the TIE defender's problems well enough to design a fix for it.

You wouldn't be trading two hits for an Ion token, you'd be trading two hits for an Ion token plus the one damage they do standard

Wouldn't it then be simpler to trade one hit for an ion token?

Yes if you put a bounty hunter on a small base it would be over costed but it's not on a small base.

...

Well, in that case the TIE defender fix is easy. Stick it on a large base.

If you think that, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what overcosted means, which in turn makes me wonder if you understand the TIE defender's problems well enough to design a fix for it.

Ok you don't like the way I think of how ships are costed and I'm fine with that. What I would like know is if you think a delta is over costed? or does it need a fix? If so you now know how I would like to fix it, how would you?

I've been toying with an idea:

Title linked fire system

Tie defender only

If equipped with an ion cannon roll one additional die at range 2-3 when firing primary weapon

Or

When firing secondary weapon roll one additional die.

Cost 0

Cost zero because you have to buy the ion cannon, you get four attacks like a HLC but don't remove bonus agility from targets and unlike a phantom don't get five attacks at range one.

TIEs also need a fix, in that MoV should be changed to balance scoring vs fat turrets.

MOV doesn't matter if you win nearly all of your games...

It does when someone (8+) else also wins nearly all theirs...

Ok you don't like the way I think of how ships are costed and I'm fine with that. What I would like know is if you think a delta is over costed? or does it need a fix? If so you now know how I would like to fix it, how would you?

A ship's point cost is based on several considerations. Its statline (higher numbers, higher cost), its actions (more inherent actions, higher cost), its base size (the large base, being a disadvantage, reduces the point cost of a ship: a small based Bounty Hunter would be closer to 36 - 39 points), its dial and then pilot specifics like EPTs and pilot skill. As it stands, the TIE defender is pricey, but it has a deeper problem: it's inhibited in its intended role.

You could cut the Delta to 26 points and people would fly it as a very points efficient B-wing or X-wing style bludgeon. But it wouldn't be doing what they designed it to do.

The Delta Squadron Pilot and the TIE defender are not cheap ships you spam and then fly like X-wings. They've got a backwards dial and seem like they were meant to work like the IG-2000 works now. Problem is, they don't have the tools for the job. It's meant to zoom in straight lines and joust quite literally as opposed to the attrition tactics we call jousting in this game. Problem is, the white koiogran isn't enough for that: it can't zoom out of a brawl without taking a turn with no shots (five forward, then koiogran 4).

Even if we simply cut their costs, the TIE defender would still likely be passed over for the Advanced or the Interceptor because it can't do its Boom and Zoom job. It's got an average attack value so it doesn't boom, and its dial either zooms it into a fight (where it doesn't want to be) or inhibits its ability to zoom out of a fight without taking a round of having its tail to the enemy.

Boost and the Systems slot would allow Advanced Sensors and boost shenanigans with the White Koiogran: it'd give it both reactionary repositioning, stop it from being blocked as easily and give that maneuver some much needed speed. The TIE defender really should have had that systems slot from the start: every existing Systems Upgrade is a much needed buff for it (while the Advanced only really chooses from two). Fire Control helps its action economy weakness, Sensor Jammer gives it a needed durability boost, Accuracy Corrector makes its damage more reliable, Enhanced Scopes stops the blocking of that white koiogran and Advanced Sensors, even without Boost, helps it in just about every way there is. It can even make those hard turns.

What I'd really like to give it though is SLAM. That gives it an effective Koiogran 9.

I've been toying with an idea:

Title linked fire system

Tie defender only

If equipped with an ion cannon roll one additional die at range 2-3 when firing primary weapon

Or

When firing secondary weapon roll one additional die.

Cost 0

Cost zero because you have to buy the ion cannon, you get four attacks like a HLC but don't remove bonus agility from targets and unlike a phantom don't get five attacks at range one.

if all hits go through would it be 4 hits + Ion?

I've been toying with an idea:

Title linked fire system

Tie defender only

If equipped with an ion cannon roll one additional die at range 2-3 when firing primary weapon

Or

When firing secondary weapon roll one additional die.

Cost 0

Cost zero because you have to buy the ion cannon, you get four attacks like a HLC but don't remove bonus agility from targets and unlike a phantom don't get five attacks at range one.

if all hits go through would it be 4 hits + Ion?

No still one damage one ion token it would just increase your chance to hit.

It's still just a nascent idea wording is far from finalised.

I do quite like the cannon discount but it is a little too easy of a 'fix'

As mentioned above, giving it a native Ion ability would be cool and thematic.

Title: For every two 'hit' or 'crits' you cancel, you may apply an Ion token (following normal Ion rules)

Who'd trade away two damage for an ion effect?

You wouldn't be trading two hits for an Ion token, you'd be trading two hits for an Ion token plus the one damage they do standard

That would require some explanation, because not all ion effects in the game deal one damage (like ion bombs).

Yeah my bad, I was remembering the rules for Ion cannon and ICT and thinking that was the standard ion rules.

You wouldn't be trading two hits for an Ion token, you'd be trading two hits for an Ion token plus the one damage they do standard

Wouldn't it then be simpler to trade one hit for an ion token?

.

That was in effect what I was aiming at.

My thinking was based of the Ion cannon and ICT, where you deal the token one damage then cancel all other damage, I thought that was the standard Ion rules.

But I also didn't want to have the option for a one to one trade

So perhaps

Title, TIE Defender only. Primary weapons only.

After attack dice have been rolled and modified you can cancel any number of hits / crits.

For every two dice canceled this way you may apply one Ion token and one damage to the opponents ship

Wording could be better I know :-P

Rear Admiral Chiraneau (46)

Predator (3)

Tactician (2)

Ysanne Isard (4)

Mara Jade (3)

Cluster Mines (4)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

Ion Cannon (3)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

Ion Cannon (3)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

Flechette Cannon (2)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

Flechette Cannon (2)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I think generics will like the mod more, because flying a DD will get you stuck with insanely high initiative and not enough defense. Generics will love this though.

A suggestion I posted in the XG-1 Assault Gunboat thread:

Title:

Linked Weapon Array

(if you are equipped with an Ion Cannon) you may make a free Ion Cannon attack after a successful primary weapon attack.

A suggestion I posted in the XG-1 Assault Gunboat thread:

Title:

Linked Weapon Array

(if you are equipped with an Ion Cannon) you may make a free Ion Cannon attack after a successful primary weapon attack.

That sounds pretty cool.