hello again,

when im active player and i play a card in marshalling phase can i play immediatly another card, or do the other players (clockwise) have the opportunity to play eventcards or do playeractions before i can play another card or perform an action?

... lets say i play Ser Ilyn Payne.

can i take immediatly his action (after playing him) to kill a character or do the other player can play Cards (like flamed kiss on him)?

i think no!!!

but if i wait until its the other players marshalling he can play flamed kiss before i have the chance to response with Payne.

so:

after i take an action in marshalling all other players (clockwise) only have the chance to play cards (Events without cost (Gold icon)) or take actions (with no cost?!).

right???

chrassos said:

I'm a little lost in your examples here, but here is how the Marshaling phase works:

After the phase starts, the First Player becomes Active Player and counts his/her gold. Now you move into a Player Action window. Starting with the First Player (who is the Active Player now, but won't necessarily be later), each player has the chance to take an action. The Active Player can choose, as an action, to pay gold and play a card from his/her hand. That counts as an action, so before the Active Player's next action, every other player has the chance to take an action. When everyone (including the Active Player) has passed consecutively, the Player Action window closes, the next player becomes Active Player, counts his/her gold and the process starts all over again.

So, if you are Active Player and you play Ser Ilyn Payne as your action, you cannot "immediately" trigger his ability and kill a character. You have to give every player (going clockwise) the opportunity to take an action first. Now, since they are not the Active Player, they cannot play new cards into play (even if they have gold in their gold pool) for that action, but they can do things like use their own copy of Ser Ilyn Payne or use "Ambush" to put Flame Kissed into play (by kneeling influence) before your next chance to take an action. If the Ser Ilyn Payne you just played is still alive after everyone else gets a chance to take an action, you can either use his ability, play another card from your hand, or whatever.

So after you take an action, which includes playing a character/location/attachment from your hand if you are Active Player, all other players (going clockwise) get the chance to take single "Marshaling" or "Any Phase" action (including events with a gold cost - assuming they have gold in their gold pool, BTW) before you can do anything else.

As an aside, as the non-Active Player, I could use the influence to Ambush Flame-Kissed onto Ilyn after you play him, but I could not pay the 2 gold to play it before you had a chance to use him.

ktom said:

perfect,

thanks again.

so...

thats excatly what i´d thought

Say my opponent, who is marshaling first, uses his first action to play a character or whatever can I now use my action to kneel a reducer (i.e. Great Pyramid) even though I am not active player. I am pretty sure this is a "yes" but the cost reducing nature of the card in question is making me wonder.

Egg said:

Yes, you can. People often forget that kneeling the reducer(s) and playing the card are separate actions and that your opponents can do stuff between - which may be behind your wondering due to the reducing nature of the card.

Just remember that if you are the second player and you kneel all of your reducers during your opponent's turn of Marshaling, they're all likely to be applied to the next card you play. So don't kneel that Great Pyramid during your opponent's turn in fear of them kneeling it before you can use it, then drop a Refugee of the Plains first thing when you become active player. You will have reduced the cost of your 0-cost character by 2. (And yes, I've seen people do that; kneel their reducers early against a GJ deck in fear that they wouldn't get to use them, then forget that they had done so and play a card they didn't need to reduce as their "next character".)

Im confused now. I cant kneel 2 x Fiefdoms to reduce cost a card by 2?

Kuba said:

Of course you can. What I'm referring to is this:

Active Player #1: I play this character.

Player #2: I kneel a Fiefdom.

Active Player #1: I play this location.

Player #2: I kneel a second Fiefdom.

Active Player #1: That's all my stuff.

Player #2: I pass, too. Now it's my turn.

(Count gold)

Player #1: I pass.

Active Player #2: I play this 1-cost character. The cost is reduced to 0 because of the Fiefdom I knelt.

Player #1: Yup. I pass.

Active Player #2: I play this other 1-cost character. The cost is reduced to 0 because of the second Fiefdom I knelt.

Player #1: Sorry. Fiefdoms say they lower the cost of the next card you play by 1. The "next" card for the second Fiefdom you knelt during my turn was also the first 1-cost character you played. You should have played a 2-cost or higher character as your first action, or not knelt both of the Fiefdoms during my turn. As it turned out, you essentially knelt that second Fiefdom for nothing because you messed up the timing.

Active Player #2: Oh. You're right. Crap.

Make more sense? If Player 2 had waited for his turn and gone in a "kneel Fief #1-play cost 1 character #1-kneel Fief #2-play cost 1 character #2," he would have been fine. But since he knelt both Fiefdoms before playing a character, they have to be applied to the same character. And if you forget and play a character you didn't need both Fiefdoms for, oh well. I was just trying to point out that while it is legal to kneel your reducers during your opponent's turn, keep careful track of how many you kneel and play your cards accordingly during your turn.

For example, I know a lot of people who play out all of their 0-cost stuff first to kind of clear their hands a bit. Do that after kneeling reducers during your opponent's turn and you might end up screwing yourself. Just saying to be aware of what you're doing; that's all.

Kuba said:

Kuba said:

Yes, you can...Just remember that you'd need 2 actions to do so. ;-)

The example made by Ktom refers to someone (I did it too, once ;-)) who reduces the cost of the next char via card effect and then plays, let's say, a 0 cost char...The reduction apllies to the NEXT char, so you have to pay little attention when you marshall after reducing.

DB_Cooper said:

An odd side effect of the Refugees if someone's not paying attention, huh?

ktom said:

Eheheh.

I did my best once...I played a weaponsmith, if I remember correctly, after reducing by 3!!!! I wanted to die.

A wonderful "-2" cost character. Even more stupid if you think about the fact that for Lions, mony is definitely not an issue. ;-)

ktom said:

???????????

Why Does Player #1 starts (he pass) after Player #2 has counted his gold?

i´d thought the active player has the chance to start his (Marshaling) Player Action first.

does the first player starts all player actions in a round. not the active player?

chrassos said:

Correct. The First Player starts all player action windows first, whether they are the Active Player or not. So in Marshaling the First Player gets the first opportunity to take an action after the Active Player counts gold (and so does everyone else between the First Player and the Active Player in a Melee game, for that matter). 9 times out of 10 they pass, but that 10th time can be a ***** (Ice Fisherman, for example). It is one of the benefits of being First Player.

We had some confusion for timing of Ser Ilyn Payne tonight and I searched and found this thread. After reading things I wanted to bump the topic and comment back to make sure we understand things correctly. To help explain I figured I should document our situation a bit first.

We had some questions on how Ser Ilyn Payne works for who goes first and who's the active player at a given time. His text, " Marshalling : Kneel Ser Ilyn Payne to choose and kill a character with STR 2 or lower." In our case we had situations with Winterfell Castle, "Each of your Stark characters gets +1 STR" & Maester Cressen, " Marshalling : Kneel Maester Cressen to choose and discard a Condition attachment from play.".

As I understand it after reading this, the FIRST player always gets first action during a player action window, even if someone else is the active player. That means in a two player game if you are second to marshall after you do the framework action of getting your gold the FIRST player has the first player action in the second players marshalling phase. If so, we've been playing this incorrectly letting an active player take the first action instead of the FIRST player. Oops! And if the FIRST player chooses to act first during another active players player action window, any response to that action would be to the next person clockwise from the FIRST player. So in a multiplayer game the active player could actually end up having the 3rd or 4th action during the first opportunity to play a player action depending on where they are seated clockwise at the table. What that tells me is the FIRST player is potentially much more powerful than we've been playing!

So in our specific case if someone already has Ser Ilyn Payne on the table and he is FIRST player he'll always get the first opportunity to use his response to kill a character with STR 2 or lower, even ones just "marshalled". Take Maester Cressen for instance, before someone could use his marshalling action of "Kneel Maester Cressen to choose and discard a Condition attachment from play" assuming he's just now coming into play via marshalling, opponents could use a response, like Ser Ilyn Payne. Correct? Also in the case of a Stark player trying to get Winterfell Castle down to protect some power 2 characters from Ser Ilyn Payne, which would be +1 with the Castle. In order for the Stark player to do so he would need to go before (preferably as the FIRST player) to prevent Payne from using his marshalling action to kill a character with STR 2 or lower.

I'm guessing this may be obvious or a silly situation for many, but it was confusing for us. Do I have that all right? I'm looking at you ktom.

Regarding Maester Cressen - keep in mind that marshalling a character counts as taking a player action and taking player actions always passes from player to player in clockwise order with each player taking at most one action each time. So it does not matter if the first player or the last player marshals Maester Cressen - all other players will get an opportunity to take one player action (like activating Ser Ilyn Payne) before the marshalling player gets a chance to take a second marshalling action and trigger Cressen's ability. Note the first player will not necessarily get the first chance to do something after Cressen enters play; rather the player to the left of the one who just marshaled Cressen will.

Regarding Winterfell Castle - if I understand your situation correctly, Ser Ilyn Payne was in play before the Marshalling phase. In that case, the Stark player needs to be the first player and use his first action to play Winterfell Castle. Otherwise, all players will get an opportunity to respond to the first player's first action and Ser Ilyn Payne can kill any of the Stark player's characters at this time. Note though that there is no opportunity to take actions during the Marshalling phase before the first player counts income (so there is no opportunity to use Payne before the first player has a chance to marshal the castle).

One thing to be careful about in the discussion here: there is a difference between player "Responses" and player "Actions." There are a few times in the past few posts where the word "Respond" is used where it may not apply. Remember that Responding in game-speak means triggering effects that specifically say "Response" on the card. Their timing is a little different.

Madduxx: schrecklich has the right of it on all counts. His explanation of the one possible moment to play Winterfell Castle to protect a 2-STR character from Payne is dead on. Most importantly, look at his explanation that Marshalling actions (including playing Cressen, using his ability and using Payne's ability) go in a circle. When you take an action (like playing Cressen), the person to your left (not necessarily the First Player) gets to take the next action. Of course, it goes around the table from there, so every other player will have the chance to take an action between you playing Cressen and you being able to use his ability.

In practical terms, say that the three of us are in a Melee game. I am First Player, you are to my left, then schrecklich. By the time we get to your turn in Marshalling, I have played Payne onto the table. You play Cressen. Now, I will have a chance to take my action - using Payne to kill Cressen - before you get to trigger any new "Marshalling" or "Any Phase" action (including playing another card from your hand), but schrecklich actually gets to do something before I do. He might be in a generous mood and decide to kneel Payne or bump Cressen's STR before I can kill Cressen. (Ain't Melee negotiations fun?)

ktom said:

That helped a ton guys and thankfully it seems I was thinking along the same lines. It's easy to second guess myself since I've been wrong many times before.

So in that example ktom normally you'd get first action in my marshalling turn as the first player. However, schrecklich would be able to go before you in the case of responding to an action I'd initiate - in this case playing Cressen. Difference being play always goes clockwise for responding, but for starting an action in a given player action window the first player goes first. Do I have that right?

I think it's starting to sink in... but for whatever reason it seems timing is a constant bit of confusion for our play group.

One other subtlety worth pointing out: the player action segment ends when all players pass in succession. Let's say you are the first player and during the Marshalling Phase you spend your turn as the active player marshalling Ser Ilyn Payne into play. Then we both pass and it's my turn to be the active player. I count income. As first player you pass on your first chance to take an action. I start off by playing a Bolton Refugee for 0 gold. You could knock it off with Ser Ilyn but decide to pass again because I still have a stack of gold and could marshall something with a more threatening ability. If I pass now, then all players have passed in succession so the Marshalling Phase ends and you have no further chance to use Ser Ilyn Payne's ability this round. I think that many newer players gloss over this subtlety and wait until the opponent is "done" to try to use an ability like Ser Ilyn's, but technically this is waiting too long and actually a mild form of unintended cheating (since the Ser Ilyn player gains an advantage by bending the rules to wait longer than allowed).

Madduxx said:

I recommend reading FAQ to consolidate:

Who gets to take the first action in a Player
Action Window?

The "First Player" always has the opportunity
to take the first action in any Player Action
Window.

Who gets the first opportunity to play a
response?

If the response is to a player action, the player
to the left of the person who initiated the
action has the first opportunity to respond.
Response opportunity then passes clockwise
around the table.

In a Framework Action Window, the "First
Player" always has the first opportunity to
respond. Response opportunity then passes
clockwise around the table. Note that challenge
resolution is a framework action window,
so the “First Player” has response priority
regardless of his status as attacker or defender.

Madduxx said:

Actually, no. While you have the right result, you do not have the right reason. Let's get to the right reason so that you can apply it to every situation.

In that three-person game, with me as First Player, you to my left, then schrecklich, Marshalling looks like this:

1. Begin phase (and bring cards out of Shadows, if anyone has them).

2. First Player (that's me) becomes Active Player and counts income.

3. Player Actions #1: Starting with the First Player (who happens to be the Active Player right now: me), we go around in a circle taking ONE ACTION apiece. An "Action" at this point is anything that starts with "Marshalling" or "Any Phase." The Active Player (still me) can also play characters, attachments and locations from his hand. The order is me-you-schrecklich, over and over, until all three of us have said "pass" in a row (all three of us have chosen not to take an action).

4. Next Player (that's you) becomes Active Player and counts income.

5. Player Actions #2: Starting with the First Player (that's still me, even though you are the Active Player right now), we go around in a circle taking ONE ACTION apiece again. The only difference between this and #3 is that I can no longer play characters, attachments and locations from my hand; only you can. Of course, as First Player, I have the opportunity to play some sort of "Marshalling" or "Any Phase" action before your first chance to play a card after counting income. (That's the funky part for most people.) Again, this continues until all three of us have "passed" in a row.

6. Next Player (that's schrecklich) becomes Active Player and counts income.

7. Player Actions #3: This is exactly the same as #3 and #5, but with schrecklich as the only person who can play characters, attachments and locations from his hand. Note that after he counts income, both you and I will have the chance to use a "Marshalling" or "Any Phase" action before he can play his first card from hand. This again continues until all three of us have "passed" in a row.

8. End Phase

Now, what you seem to be doing in #3, #5 and #7 is that each time you or schrecklich takes an action, you keep jumping back to me. But the order is always "ktom-Madduxx-schrecklich-ktom-Maddux-schrecklich..." over and over - no matter who is Active Player or who actually plays something. Does that help? When you are the Active Player and play Cressen, there is no exception that allows schrecklich to play the next action because he always gets the next action after you, no matter who is Active Player.

The other thing you seem to be confusing is the difference between an action and a Response. When you play Cressen (an action), I am not Responding to that action by killing him with Payne. I am taking a completely separate action that happens to kill him. You can tell that it is an action because the timing word is "Marshalling," not "Response." Responses are technically part of the action they are Responding to, not actions in their own right.

Thanks for continuing to clarify and create examples all. It's slowly making sense I think.

One last question looking at Rogue 30's FAQ post, in your latest example during #5 you (ktom - first player) gets the first opportunity to play a response action during the challenge resolution framework to a card I play before schrecklich?

But if the response is to a player action outside of a framework action, the player to my left (schrecklich) has the first opportunity to respond before you (ktom - first player)?

EDIT - I changed how some of this was worded to help explain my question better. Please excuse if you saw the earlier post.

Madduxx said:

Again, be careful about saying "Response Action." There is no such thing in AGoT game-speak. A Response is just a Response. If you must tack something at the end of it, then "Response effect" is the better way to say it. I keep harping on this because of what you are asking: Response timing and Action timing are a little different. If you keep calling Responses "actions," someone is going to get (more) confused.

Yes. For any Player Action (those "Marshalling," "Challenges," "Any Phase" effects that players choose to trigger), the player to the left of the one who played that action gets first Response opportunity, then clockwise around the table. As such, you will always be the last person to Respond to your own action.

In a Framework Action Window, where the action was "played" by the game instead of a player, the First Player gets the first opportunity to Respond. So no matter who the Active Player, attacking player or winner of the challenge is during Challenges, the First Player always gets the first option to trigger a Response effect.

I would like to come back to the earlier questions on this topic:

ktom said:

Egg said:

Say my opponent, who is marshaling first, uses his first action to play a character or whatever can I now use my action to kneel a reducer (i.e. Great Pyramid) even though I am not active player. I am pretty sure this is a "yes" but the cost reducing nature of the card in question is making me wonder.

Yes, you can. People often forget that kneeling the reducer(s) and playing the card are separate actions and that your opponents can do stuff between - which may be behind your wondering due to the reducing nature of the card.

Just remember that if you are the second player and you kneel all of your reducers during your opponent's turn of Marshaling, they're all likely to be applied to the next card you play. So don't kneel that Great Pyramid during your opponent's turn in fear of them kneeling it before you can use it, then a Refugee of the Plains first thing when you become active player. You will have reduced the cost of your 0-cost character by 2. (And yes, I've seen people do that; kneel their reducers early against a GJ deck in fear that they wouldn't get to use them, then forget that they had done so and play a card they didn't need to reduce as their "next character".)

there are some cards that reduce the cost of the next character, and others that reduce the cost of the next card. if I kneel a card that reduces the cost of the next character, and then marshall a location, the cost reducing effect will still be up for the next character that I marshall, right?

Pedro Lunaris said:

Of course.

ok, obvious question. thanks!