So I have come across a few times my opponent rolling too many defense dice... Now they always choose to just re roll the proper amount when I state they have rolled too many even when their results are bad. Can we get a ruling on the proper procedure for this situation? Because I don't see it as fair letting them get a free reroll because they rolled too many. Same goes with attacks if you grab one too many on accident what should be done to rectify?

Mind you I ask because the re roll is always better in the situations I have been in. And I do not enjoy going from hitting to missing because they rolled too many dice the first time.

Seems like the fairest thing to do once they have already rolled an incorrect number of dice would be to cancel their evades first, then focuses, then blanks, down to the correct number of dice. A better thing might be to stop them from rolling if you can, but of course mistakes happen.

Do you ALWAYS catch them rolling too many dice and then do they always make a second roll using the correct number of dice? Mistakes can happen but if it is common then you may need to take action.

If this is a tournament I believe the first time this happens you have them make a new roll with the right number of dice. The second time it happens you call over the TO and point out that your opponent is rolling too many dice and may be attempting to CHEAT in the hope that you don't notice any extra dice or at the very least don't notice him trying to cover up any extra dice that produced a bad result. If this happens a third time I'm not sure what to say because you have already given the player the benefit once and then should have put him on notice by calling over the TO to point out the problem; I believe a forfeiture of the game could be called for.

I guess I also want to make sure they are rolling 'too many' dice and that you are not missing some modifications such as that caused by range or an obstructed shot. If that is why he is rolling so many dice he should point that out to you instead of making a second roll with fewer dice although it would also be cheating if he rolled the correct number of dice but failed to get the desired results and then lets you 'bully' him into making a roll "that counts" using fewer dice.

Do note that I am using the phrase "new roll" because a re-roll has a very specific game meaning and that is NOT what he should be doing. In theory if he is suppose to roll 3 dice for defense but rolls 4 instead there is no statistical benefit to be gained when he finally does roll the 3 he is actually supposed to roll. You may be suffering from tunnel vision where you only remember the times he rolled too many dice but did terribly with them only to follow up with a good roll while forgetting about the times that he rolled very well with the extra dice but then did not perform nearly as well when he rolled the correct number of dice.

I find it quite helpful you announce what the die numbers rolled will be prior to rolling, similar to how they do it on Vassal, I typically say:

"My 3 attack vs your 2 defence" for example and make sure I get an acknowledgement before rolling my reds, this is particularly helpful if you play a pilot like Wedge or ships with HLC shooting at R3 a lot.

It would be better if there was an official ruling stating that if you roll too many dice your opponent gets to decide which one(s) to discard.

It's not a "free" reroll. It's a forced reroll, which completely invalidates the previous roll. The previous roll is irrelevant.

If they were somehow doing something to keep part of the roll, or to sometimes keep it and sometimes reroll it, then that would be a problem. But unless I'm missing something, they're not, and they're just as likely to have to reroll all evades as they are to reroll all blanks.

There's no reason to punish anyone for this because it literally does not matter beyond slowing the game down slightly.

Assuming, for the moment, good faith on all sides, why would you not start from scratch with the right number of dice? What's the alternative? Letting either player just discard some of the dice without starting a new roll is either a moral hazard or needlessly punitive, depending on which player gets to choose.

The OP mentions not wanting to give the erring player a "free reroll". Still assuming good faith, picking up the correct number of dice and rolling them isn't a reroll, it's just correcting a mistake. The results of that first roll shouldn't enter into any calculations, because they never really happened.

If you can't assume good faith, i.e. if you think your opponent is deliberately rolling too many green dice, the solution is probably going to involve a lot of announcing dice pools ahead of time, as suggested above. Punitively discarding the best result from a too-large pool is just a recipe for bad blood.

tl;dr: If you're bothered by the feeling that your opponent is getting free stuff when they correct their too-large dice pool, I would suggest, with all respect, that you endeavor to get over it.

Best way to resolve this I have experienced is when an opponent rolled too many. He rolled 1 evade on 4 dice, then when he went to reroll he said "I can't roll more than one evade."

By saying that, he is putting in the possibility of rolling worse than he did the first time, but eliminating the chance of rolling better.

It happens because I run YT-2400 outrider with hlc or mangler. And every instance I say what I am firing with and usually no extra evades (unless asteroid) never so far has the forced reroll come up worse then the miss roll. And the opponents always giggle when they go from damage to no damage. Also let me point out it is never on the first attack I do. I believe any re roll offers too much benefit. I also see where someone is saying good faith or mistakes happen... Yes but if you have an opponent make a movement mistake that puts them in a bad position do you let them re do that movement?

Me personally it should be the opponent (me) chooses the dice from your roll that now count similar to how a stressed red maneuver punishes the opponent.

Unless your opponent is using loaded dice, the first and second roll should be completely independent. The fact that you feel he always rolls good on the second roll is dumb luck. He could just as well roll all blanks on his second roll.

And honestly scratching the first roll and rolling the correct amount of dice is the only acceptable solution to the situation.

There is no benefit to a forced re-roll.

How could there be any benefit if he is forced to re-roll the correct number of dice? It is not as if he can opt to keep the orginal roll, therefore there is absolutely no way for the other player to benefit provided you are ensuring that he ends up rolling the correct number of dice, regardless of the initial roll.

Statistically, how does this benefit the other player? You are coming off as delusional with your "examples" to be honest.

My question is this: is he rolling too many dice in the hopes that you won't notice the extra? And if you don't notice, will that roll stand? Because although it's going to be hard to prove, it's blatantly cheating. The fact you state he always does this makes it even more suspicious. First instance, may be an honest mistake. Second instance, dubious "mistake". After that, well, you be the judge.

Frankly it shouldn't matter what the persons intent is. If they are persistently rolling the incorrect number of dice, whether due to obliviousness or nefarious purposes, it is a problem. Because as you noted, eventually it won't get corrected.

Just because there should be no punishment in the correction doesn't mean persistently needing to be corrected shouldn't include some degree of sanction. Otherwise you are not holding players accountable to the rules.

I generally say if you rolled too many defence dice and got no evades or eyes (or just evades if no focus token) then the roll stands. Otherwise please roll with the correct number. I've seen a cloaked Tie Phantom at R3 and behind a rock with only an evade token roll nothing but eye/blank even though he rolled an extra die because he forgot I was using Mangler Cannon not primary attack.
Cue many laughs, and continued play.

Note that I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time...

You are coming off as delusional with your "examples" to be honest.

It's not delusional, it's just confirmation bias. People are naturally going to think that the re-roll favors the other person, because they remember the times it does more so then the times it doesn't.

But I agree with the larger point. Rolling the dice again isn't going to give anyone an advantage really. Odds are odds and rolling them again won't change that, so the only fair thing to do is roll the correct number of dice.

Delusional is simply having a false and unreasonable opinion, so I think any confirmation bias, and most specifically what the OP is displaying is most certainly fitting in that category. But I mispoke, I should have said his comparisons are appearing as such. Since he is suggesting that choosing a poor maneuver and rolling the incorrect amount of dice are somehow comparable situations.

OP not making a lot of sense here.

It's not really confirmation bias, it's more a basic misunderstanding about the independence of random events. And I think it's a long way from "delusional" being anywhere near appropriate.

We could theoretically make every roll in X-wing by figuring out how many dice to roll, rolling those dice 10 times and recording each result, then rolling a d10 to determine which of those rolls we actually use. That's no different, statistically, than just rolling once. We could also make a roll, then roll a d6, and reroll everything on odd but keep it on even. Again, no difference.

Independence of random events is an issue that a lot of people misunderstand. It's a relatively understandable thing, and really doesn't deserve the insults.

Since he is suggesting that choosing a poor maneuver and rolling the incorrect amount of dice are somehow comparable situations.

I can see the equivalence, if you accept his flawed premise.

Lets say for the sake of argument, that the OP is correct and being able to re-roll the dice is an advantage. If so then letting the player who did that re-roll the dice because they made a mistake is similar to letting someone change their maneuver if it means they land on a asteroid.

In both cases you're letting someone capitalize on a mistake they made.

The problem is, that the OP's premise is flawed, being able to re-roll the dice isn't an advantage.

Oh and for what it's worth... The reason I said it was a case of confirmation bias was statements by the OP like this.

Mind you I ask because the re roll is always better in the situations I have been in.

It's definitely confirmation bias.

The OP stated this has happened a "few times." This would indicate it is not a regular intent to break the rules, but by accident. I have been guilty of doing this once or twice particularly if I am at range 3 of an opponent with a secondary weapon and forgot that the range modifier was not in play. In fairness to both the person rolling the dice and their opponent, I think the best thing to do is reroll the dice. Our local group typically announces the attacker/defender dice quantities to help avoid this error.

If this becomes a repeat issue with an individual player in a tournament, I would address it with the player first prior to calling over the TO.

I understand what the op is getting at.

I've seen cases where it has burned me when an opponent rolled the wrong amount of dice and reroll and rolling better.

I mean if you rolled say two hits and a crit, with Mangler let's say.

That a hit and two crits now

Your opponent is suppose to roll 3 dice, but instead rolls 4 ( which can easily happen as I'm sure we've all done it) and on his 3 dice rolls all blanks.

You point out the error.

Opponent says ok, reroll three of them and nails three evades.

I mean that is kind of frustrating.

Especially if it means destroying a ship and not.

Yes dice are random.

But I do see his point. It is a reroll and just like a target lock, or lone wolf, we all know rerolls are great when we roll badly.

So everyone, or the majority here is totally fine with that?

I actually like the idea that your opponent gets to choose which out of all your dice you keep.

It really wouldn't hurt to have some sort of rulings on that.

1) Mistakes happen.

2) A ruling may also prevent players from possibly trying to exploit this

Ffg took the time to put in a ruling on setting the wrong ship dials, and doing red maneuvers while stressed.

Surely wouldn't hurt to have a ruling on rolling the incorrect dice

Couple ideas

1) The player who rolled the incorrect amount of dice, reroll, but receives a -1 agility

2) The other player may decide which dice he gets to keep.

Or maybe a combination of 1 & 2?

Idk, but in a game I had a while back I would have destroyed my opponent ship, but then this whole thing happened, and his ship lived

Yes dice are random, but if you flop a role, and get to reroll, that is in his favor, as now he has a chance to roll better and keep a ship on the board.

Actually I can't really remember for certian but I think I conceded that game because it was my last chance for a comeback, and with that ship still on board no way was I going to win, which is pretty frustrating.

In a way I felt as though I was penalized for my opponents mistake, which makes no sense at all

Like any sport or game if someone does something wrong, intentional or not, some sort of penalty follows.

Idk, but doesn't seem right.

Opponent made a mistake. Rerolling can be a good thing, rather than punishment for making a mistake

I think I'll mention a house rule.

Roll too many dice, opponent gets to choose which you keep

Sounds fair

Not much different if you did a red maneuver while stressed imo anyway

But for organize play, I really think there should be a rule.

I wouldn't put it past some to roll the wrong amount with the hopes of getting away with it, and getting to reroll if they flop and it is pointed out their error which is highly likely as I feel the majority of players are honest players.

Doesn't mean everyone is though

IF you want a 'house rule' I'd say the only one that makes sense is "if you roll extra dice and all initial dice results are the same type then just cut down to the correct number and continue play instead of rerolling the correct number of dice."

This means that if they are supposed to roll 3 but roll 4 instead and get 4 blanks then they will only get blanks for three dice. It also means that if they roll 4 eyes then they will keep 3 eyes. It would be the same with other dice results as well. If one die is different from the others then the whole thing needs to be rerolled.

I understand what the op is getting at.

I've seen cases where it has burned me when an opponent rolled the wrong amount of dice and reroll and rolling better.

I mean if you rolled say two hits and a crit, with Mangler let's say.

That a hit and two crits now

Your opponent is suppose to roll 3 dice, but instead rolls 4 ( which can easily happen as I'm sure we've all done it) and on his 3 dice rolls all blanks.

You point out the error.

Opponent says ok, reroll three of them and nails three evades.

I mean that is kind of frustrating.

Especially if it means destroying a ship and not.

Yes dice are random.

But I do see his point. It is a reroll and just like a target lock, or lone wolf, we all know rerolls are great when we roll badly.

So everyone, or the majority here is totally fine with that?

I actually like the idea that your opponent gets to choose which out of all your dice you keep.

It really wouldn't hurt to have some sort of rulings on that.

1) Mistakes happen.

2) A ruling may also prevent players from possibly trying to exploit this

Ffg took the time to put in a ruling on setting the wrong ship dials, and doing red maneuvers while stressed.

Surely wouldn't hurt to have a ruling on rolling the incorrect dice

Couple ideas

1) The player who rolled the incorrect amount of dice, reroll, but receives a -1 agility

2) The other player may decide which dice he gets to keep.

Or maybe a combination of 1 & 2?

Idk, but in a game I had a while back I would have destroyed my opponent ship, but then this whole thing happened, and his ship lived

Yes dice are random, but if you flop a role, and get to reroll, that is in his favor, as now he has a chance to roll better and keep a ship on the board.

Actually I can't really remember for certian but I think I conceded that game because it was my last chance for a comeback, and with that ship still on board no way was I going to win, which is pretty frustrating.

In a way I felt as though I was penalized for my opponents mistake, which makes no sense at all

Like any sport or game if someone does something wrong, intentional or not, some sort of penalty follows.

Idk, but doesn't seem right.

Opponent made a mistake. Rerolling can be a good thing, rather than punishment for making a mistake

I think I'll mention a house rule.

Roll too many dice, opponent gets to choose which you keep

Sounds fair

Not much different if you did a red maneuver while stressed imo anyway

But for organize play, I really think there should be a rule.

I wouldn't put it past some to roll the wrong amount with the hopes of getting away with it, and getting to reroll if they flop and it is pointed out their error which is highly likely as I feel the majority of players are honest players.

Doesn't mean everyone is though

Comparing being forced to re-roll to the effects of Lone Wolf, Target Lock, or an voluntary re-roll is a massive breach in logic.

Why are those effects beneficial to you? Because you can choose when and/or what to use it on. That is exactly why those effects raise your positive result average, because you can choose when to trigger them. They will only be used to turn bad results into possibly better results.

Being forced to roll the correct number of dice is in no way beneficial because you can not choose whether to do it or not. There are equal chances that the forced re-roll will erase a good roll as it will bad. The odds on the the re-roll are unaffected by the previous roll.

Taking the stance that being forced to re-roll the correct number of dice in anyway is beneficial is frankly just incorrect. It is directly misrepresenting the relevant statistics.

I understand what the op is getting at.

I've seen cases where it has burned me when an opponent rolled the wrong amount of dice and reroll and rolling better.

I mean if you rolled say two hits and a crit, with Mangler let's say.

That a hit and two crits now

Your opponent is suppose to roll 3 dice, but instead rolls 4 ( which can easily happen as I'm sure we've all done it) and on his 3 dice rolls all blanks.

You point out the error.

Opponent says ok, reroll three of them and nails three evades.

I mean that is kind of frustrating.

Especially if it means destroying a ship and not.

Yes dice are random.

But I do see his point. It is a reroll and just like a target lock, or lone wolf, we all know rerolls are great when we roll badly.

So everyone, or the majority here is totally fine with that?

I actually like the idea that your opponent gets to choose which out of all your dice you keep.

It really wouldn't hurt to have some sort of rulings on that.

1) Mistakes happen.

2) A ruling may also prevent players from possibly trying to exploit this

Ffg took the time to put in a ruling on setting the wrong ship dials, and doing red maneuvers while stressed.

Surely wouldn't hurt to have a ruling on rolling the incorrect dice

Couple ideas

1) The player who rolled the incorrect amount of dice, reroll, but receives a -1 agility

2) The other player may decide which dice he gets to keep.

Or maybe a combination of 1 & 2?

Idk, but in a game I had a while back I would have destroyed my opponent ship, but then this whole thing happened, and his ship lived

Yes dice are random, but if you flop a role, and get to reroll, that is in his favor, as now he has a chance to roll better and keep a ship on the board.

Actually I can't really remember for certian but I think I conceded that game because it was my last chance for a comeback, and with that ship still on board no way was I going to win, which is pretty frustrating.

In a way I felt as though I was penalized for my opponents mistake, which makes no sense at all

Like any sport or game if someone does something wrong, intentional or not, some sort of penalty follows.

Idk, but doesn't seem right.

Opponent made a mistake. Rerolling can be a good thing, rather than punishment for making a mistake

I think I'll mention a house rule.

Roll too many dice, opponent gets to choose which you keep

Sounds fair

Not much different if you did a red maneuver while stressed imo anyway

But for organize play, I really think there should be a rule.

I wouldn't put it past some to roll the wrong amount with the hopes of getting away with it, and getting to reroll if they flop and it is pointed out their error which is highly likely as I feel the majority of players are honest players.

Doesn't mean everyone is though

Comparing being forced to re-roll to the effects of Lone Wolf, Target Lock, or an voluntary re-roll is a massive breach in logic.

Why are those effects beneficial to you? Because you can choose when and/or what to use it on. That is exactly why those effects raise your positive result average, because you can choose when to trigger them. They will only be used to turn bad results into possibly better results.

Being forced to roll the correct number of dice is in no way beneficial because you can not choose whether to do it or not. There are equal chances that the forced re-roll will erase a good roll as it will bad. The odds on the the re-roll are unaffected by the previous roll.

Taking the stance that being forced to re-roll the correct number of dice in anyway is beneficial is frankly just incorrect. It is directly misrepresenting the relevant statistics.

Look, I know it can go either way, but rerolling, especially after flopping a roll is a great thing

Can you suggest otherwise?

Yes that's why we pay extra points for predator etc etc.

That's why we target lock etc

Ya, being forced to reroll may not be a good thing, but I find the game doesn't become fun and more frustrating when I go from killing a ship to doing no damage at all. All because my opponent made a mistake.

I don't see any logic in that whatsoever.

No matter what like I said earlier, intentional or not something should be in place to penalize the player who made the error

If they are new, I would totally understand, and explain it to them, and I'd be sure to explain, and remind them if I feel they need it, but if you've been playing since wave 3 on a regular basis then you know you don't get your bonus defend dice at range 3 if I'm using a hlc

Oh, you rolled an extra dice. Well now this happens

Just like you know you can't kturn while stressed, yet there is a rule in place there

Makes perfect sense

As for opponent rolling the correct amount of dice, there is no penalty for making that error.

I believe yes there should be a penalty regardless of the outcome

You messed up, too bad so sad

Just like how they made the ruling about setting the wrong ships dial, and setting a kturn while stressed for example

So as a player, your opponent messes up, goes from ship destroyed to still alive.

In no way would you feel as though your opponents error actually benefited him and penalized you?

In a game where a major factor of the outcome depends on dice, would it not make sense to have a rule in place?

I think comparing it to setting a dial to kturn while stressed is a good comparison

In both situation an error was made, but only one of those situations has a penalty in place, and the other does not, which btw has a chance to benifit the player who made the error.

Sure you can say dice are random, but even so, no matter what a mistake was made.

It's rare, but in a final table match at regionals, national, or worlds, it definitely wouldn't sit well with me if it did happen and cost me the match.

Hell it wouldn't sit well with me even if I was spectating.

Again, what I'm getting at, is my opponent made a mistake.

Doesn't have to be what I suggested above, but something should be in place so that the opponent cannot benifit from it.

A rule of some sort may also make players a little more cautious when deciding the correct amount of dice

I always announce x dice vs x dice but I've still seen it and have been burned by it more than once.

Again, does that seem fair?

It can go either way, they could roll all evades then blanks, but again I feel some sort of penalty should be in place.

Why not?

In a tournament setting would you let your opponent reset his dial after you moved first, and he did a kturn while stressed?

Probably not.

That would benifit him.

I know I've done it, and I'm sure we all have at some point.

In my case, I've let my opponent decide reroll, keep or whatever

At least that way the decision is his since there isn't any legal ruling on it

Not much else can be done at the time

I've also seen people abuse this is another way, which I never understood

Seen people do this on vassal

Player suppose to attack with 4 dice

Hlc for example, but for whatever reason rolls three dice

I pointed out the mistake, and instead of just rolling another dice, they rolled 4

And usually with better results.

I'd ask why wouldn't you just roll one extra, then the game slows down

I can't help feel that at the time they had a flop roll, and wanted to reroll all dice in hopes of getting better results, which odds are in their favor.

This example is pretty well opposite of this discussion, but my point is people will do what they can to benefit themselves

More so when playing against strangers, such as online, or in tournaments

Which is why I'd love to see a ruling on this.

I'd love to hear a response from Alex on this matter, even a suggestion or opinion would be nice