Every time people tell me the background story I just keep thinking how that bits been stolen from magic and that other bit is from another franchise, and its all such an unoriginal mess.

Unlike the old 16th century europe (holy roman empire) meets Tolkien meets grail legend setting that was absolutely no blatant plagiarism at all you mean?

Part of the issue, I guess. No one really noticed/cared to much about the plagarism back in the nineties.

"But we're living in a litigious world, and I am a ligitious gi... er... ah"

Digital age. Copyright. Intellectual property. Et cetera, et cetera. Plagarising a background story for a bunch of petwter toy soldiers for geeks on a little islandin thewest Atylantic is one thing. Posting that story for profit to a worldwide audience on the internet, making video games based on it that sell to a worldwide audience as well, that's an entirely different matter. Especially in 2015, when every individual and their labradoodle will jump on the legal gravy train in search of a quick payday.

Personally, I blame 'Murica.

Every time people tell me the background story I just keep thinking how that bits been stolen from magic and that other bit is from another franchise, and its all such an unoriginal mess.

Unlike the old 16th century europe (holy roman empire) meets Tolkien meets grail legend setting that was absolutely no blatant plagiarism at all you mean?

Granted it took inspiration from Tolkien but so has every fantasy setting, but Tolkien himself took from myths and legends.

After 30 years it was it's own beast, much like warcraft started as a direct rip off of warhammer and has become it's own universe.

But when you out right steal from an original universe like MTG that's shady, sigmar and friends are planeswalkers the realms are artificial planes, sigmarines are like urzas supersoldiers.

They've ditched their own universe to steal from another company, they've ditched their game to steal from PP's warmahordes.

But what makes it so truly disgusting is they didn't even do a good job of it this was just a lazy shoddy job from start to finish.

Every time people tell me the background story I just keep thinking how that bits been stolen from magic and that other bit is from another franchise, and its all such an unoriginal mess.

I resent that! Magic has better backstory!

Every time people tell me the background story I just keep thinking how that bits been stolen from magic and that other bit is from another franchise, and its all such an unoriginal mess.

Unlike the old 16th century europe (holy roman empire) meets Tolkien meets grail legend setting that was absolutely no blatant plagiarism at all you mean?

That europeeeeeeeen feeling was what set it apart. (The ghost of Marijke Slachtoffer. Oh god you got to speak Dutch to understand how funny that is.) and it's only really Tolkien when it comes to elves and dwarfs and goblins, with orcs it already starts to go different. Add in chaos/chaos dwarfs and the undead and warhammer becomes it's own thing .

Also it was the late 70s early 80s EVERYTHING was Tolkien then*.

*broad generalisation , I know...

The thing with the new fluff is it's so vague and bombastic it's impossible to feel a conection with any of it.

Setting is 8 magic realms: EACH IMPOSSIBLY VAST UNIVERSES FULL OF UNTOLD WONDERS AND HORRORS!!! So if chaos conquers a bit it of it that's not bad because they are all so big? meh.

Story: FOR THOOOUUUSANDS OF YEARS SIGMAR BLA BLA BUILT HUGE FORTRESS BIG AS A MOUNTAIN BLA BLA RACES FLOCKED TO HIS BANNERS! BLA BLA. THEN CHAOS CAME!!!

SO EPIC WAS TEH WAR AND HOROR AND DEVASTATION that i got sick and tired less than 3 minutes in.

Characters: what characters? factions then: BLA BLA IMMORTAL SUPERMEN WITH LIGHTNING IN THEIR VEINS VERSUS NUMBERLESS LEGIONS OF DEAMONIC FORCES WHO' VERY EXISTANCE SHATTERS THE REALMS AND DESPOILS WHOLE WORLDS!

You know, Syndrome was right: "If everybody's special, then no one is."

With warhammer, even with the dark elves you had a feeling of conect: they had lost their homeland to betrayal (their version of events ) they had a history, Har Ganeth was not just a random name, it was a city and you could tell what made it special and how it was different from Hag Graef.

Every time people tell me the background story I just keep thinking how that bits been stolen from magic and that other bit is from another franchise, and its all such an unoriginal mess.

I'm trying to figure out how you can make the connection that Warhammer Fantasy stole the background from Magic: The Gathering. I mean, the Warhammer Fantasy has been around since '83, and the background really began to develop in '86 when they did the RPG. Magic wasn't released until '93. If they stole the background from anywhere, it was taken from history.

Bretonnia is Great Britain, following the Arthurian legend. The Empire is medieval Europe with a heavy German influence. The Dark Elves live in Naggaroth, which is North America. The Lizardmen are Aztec. The Elves come from Ulthuan, which is an island between the old and new world... an idea that comes from Atlantis. When you take away the chaos aspect, the Norse are based on Vikings. You have Cathay, Nippon, and so many other ideas that never spawned into armies in the game.

I am always amused by people saying that Warhammer has stolen its lore from something else. Usually, it comes from people claiming that they stole it from Blizzard.

If you are talking about the fluff for Age of Sigmar, I still don't buy that it is a rip off of Magic. If anything, I'd say they stole from themselves. Sigmar perfectly matches the description of the Primarchs. The Stormcast eternal having lightning in their veins sounds a lot like psykers. The different planes could easily be planets that have fallen into the Warp.

he means they went from one eurotolkien world to the realms of magic wich are flat out planes as they exist in MTG.

The problem is they made the new fluff: SIGMARS HOST OF SUPERMEN VS THE LEGIONS OF CHAOS! and then remembered oh crap, we still gotta fit in the rest of those armies so the vets can keep playing with their minis, so they bolted on this nonsensence that has the destroyed armies of the warhammer world still existing/being resurected . But those two things clash. It's been generations since Siggy created the realms of magic yet the dwarfs and elves (despite being even called differnt now : Aelfs for example) look exactly as they did before the storm of chaos. And there has been some change but not enough so it feels odd...

Bretonnia is Great Britain, following the Arthurian legend..

Errr, what? I'll give you the Arthurian bit, but VERY sure Bretonnia is based on France...

Albion is England

Bretonnia is France

Estalia is Spain

Tilea is Italy

The Empire consitutes Germany, Austria, the Czech Republic and a fair amount of Eastern Europe...

oh wait... hold on a minute...

,,,not "is"... "did". Non of them exist anymore, do they?

Every time people tell me the background story I just keep thinking how that bits been stolen from magic and that other bit is from another franchise, and its all such an unoriginal mess.

I'm trying to figure out how you can make the connection that Warhammer Fantasy stole the background from Magic: The Gathering. I mean, the Warhammer Fantasy has been around since '83, and the background really began to develop in '86 when they did the RPG. Magic wasn't released until '93. If they stole the background from anywhere, it was taken from history.

Bretonnia is Great Britain, following the Arthurian legend. The Empire is medieval Europe with a heavy German influence. The Dark Elves live in Naggaroth, which is North America. The Lizardmen are Aztec. The Elves come from Ulthuan, which is an island between the old and new world... an idea that comes from Atlantis. When you take away the chaos aspect, the Norse are based on Vikings. You have Cathay, Nippon, and so many other ideas that never spawned into armies in the game.

I am always amused by people saying that Warhammer has stolen its lore from something else. Usually, it comes from people claiming that they stole it from Blizzard.

If you are talking about the fluff for Age of Sigmar, I still don't buy that it is a rip off of Magic. If anything, I'd say they stole from themselves. Sigmar perfectly matches the description of the Primarchs. The Stormcast eternal having lightning in their veins sounds a lot like psykers. The different planes could easily be planets that have fallen into the Warp.

I'm very obviously on about AoS.

Realms=plains

Gods=plainswalkers

Sigmarines=urzas genetically created supermen

I can't really make that any simpler.

Magic isn't the only ip they blatantly stolen from but it's the most glaring one.

And where did Magic steal their ideas from? When it comes to stuff set in a fantasy realm, there is no such thing as an original idea.

Magic features the usual fantasy tropes like elves and dragons but it's otherwise unique, an artificer is driven to discover secrets of a lost civilization and unlocks an ancient evil which leads to his brothers corruption, they fight a war that engulfs their entire world and leads to an ice age that nearly wipes out all life.

Then centuries later he returns not dead but transformed into a plainswalker a God like entity that can step between dimensions and commands magic, driven mad by the war with his brother he sets out to get revenge on the evil that set them against each other.

It's a mix of magic science and steampunk that I've never encountered in anything else I've read.

OK. Just seen a picture of the "Heavy Bolter" Sigmarine. What's next? Terminator Armour? Dreadnaughts?

OK. Just seen a picture of the "Heavy Bolter" Sigmarine. What's next? Terminator Armour? Dreadnaughts?

Dreadknights, the correct term will be dreadknights. Armored giants that fight for Sigmar that are armed and armored with the most powerful weapons and defenses of the Imperium....errr...Empire.

In all seriousness I have been watching Kings of War 2 demos and the game looks quite fun, it might make me build a fantasy army so I can actually play rank and file like I always wanted to.

OK. Just seen a picture of the "Heavy Bolter" Sigmarine. What's next? Terminator Armour? Dreadnaughts?

Dreadknights, the correct term will be dreadknights. Armored giants that fight for Sigmar that are armed and armored with the most powerful weapons and defenses of the Imperium....errr...Empire.

In all seriousness I have been watching Kings of War 2 demos and the game looks quite fun, it might make me build a fantasy army so I can actually play rank and file like I always wanted to.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Nemesis-Dreadknight-New?_requestid=2831657

Exists already and its fugly, another sin Matt ward must pay for.

Whether the game works or not, it's still absolutely disgraceful that GW effectively erased 30+ years of creativity form it's team. The Warhamer world, it's history, geography, characters, notable events, stories, races, factions, it's very identity... all gone...

...for no other reason apparently than GW wants all it's products to have copyrightable names.

If it worked for star trek (no it did not)

But to be honest, I'm just waiting for Sigmar with his thunderers to conquer Terra and then he can send navigators to the Techpriest of Mars once the Eldar have rebirth Slaneesh.

Just saying Sigmar might be the Emperor of Mankind. It checks with the wisest of the scribes.

Whether the game works or not, it's still absolutely disgraceful that GW effectively erased 30+ years of creativity form it's team. The Warhamer world, it's history, geography, characters, notable events, stories, races, factions, it's very identity... all gone...

...for no other reason apparently than GW wants all it's products to have copyrightable names.

If it worked for star trek (no it did not)

But to be honest, I'm just waiting for Sigmar with his thunderers to conquer Terra and then he can send navigators to the Techpriest of Mars once the Eldar have rebirth Slaneesh.

Just saying Sigmar might be the Emperor of Mankind. It checks with the wisest of the scribes.

Don't give them ideas please.

Whether the game works or not, it's still absolutely disgraceful that GW effectively erased 30+ years of creativity form it's team. The Warhamer world, it's history, geography, characters, notable events, stories, races, factions, it's very identity... all gone...

...for no other reason apparently than GW wants all it's products to have copyrightable names.

If it worked for star trek (no it did not)

But to be honest, I'm just waiting for Sigmar with his thunderers to conquer Terra and then he can send navigators to the Techpriest of Mars once the Eldar have rebirth Slaneesh.

Just saying Sigmar might be the Emperor of Mankind. It checks with the wisest of the scribes.

No no It's the other way around, Sigmar's golden boys are actually Mat ward's ultramarines!

OK, time for a clear out methinks. Pappa wants some Scum and a (couple of) Gozantis. Ebay here I come!

So this begs the question....

Is there now scope for a "0K" a setting that bridges the two universes....

could open up some fun options.... Especially with older miniatures....

C'mon surely Gadge already has a set of house rules for this!

So this begs the question....

Is there now scope for a "0K" a setting that bridges the two universes....

could open up some fun options.... Especially with older miniatures....

C'mon surely Gadge already has a set of house rules for this!

Hell even GW has...The Storm of Magic book had rules for Zoats!

I always thought I saw a hint of the Slann in the Lizardmen too...

...of course it would mean they'd finally have to resurrect space dwarves... sorry Squats or is it Demiurge....

So, I have a 7th Edition Fantasy Rulebook, the last three edition army books for Warriors of Chaos, the last two editions for Daemons of Chaos, three of the last four editions of the 40K Eldar codex, ye old Black Templars codex, probably about 4,000 points of Warriors of Chaos, a similar amount of Eldar, about 2,000 Khorne Daemons... which I need to find a loving new home for.

It'll be a wrench giving them up, but they never see the light of day anymore for gaming. It's time to finally get that grimdark skull-encrusted monkey off my back.

So this begs the question....

Is there now scope for a "0K" a setting that bridges the two universes....

could open up some fun options.... Especially with older miniatures....

C'mon surely Gadge already has a set of house rules for this!

If I am not mistaken, the initial fluff was that the Warhammer world was a world cut off from the 40k galaxy by Warp Storms.

So this begs the question....

Is there now scope for a "0K" a setting that bridges the two universes....

could open up some fun options.... Especially with older miniatures....

C'mon surely Gadge already has a set of house rules for this!

If I am not mistaken, the initial fluff was that the Warhammer world was a world cut off from the 40k galaxy by Warp Storms.

That is the original story.

The warhammer world *was* (althought never explicity said more than twice) a feral world in the imperium that became a medieval world. The most obvious references to this are an advert at the back of 'chapter approved' for 'talisman' and another supplement for warhammer in which an inquisitor comments how the rules are for a primitivel world in the something system.

Even the 'dark future background is part of the 40k universe. Dark Future was 'dark age of technology' earth. This was in the original rules manuscript but edited out, what survived is the birth of chaos cults and in 'white line fever' and the infantry models you can see hooded cultists with chaos 8 arrow symbols in black robes.

Blood Bowl was an 'alternative' reality warhammer world (IIRC) and while WHFRP and WFB were the same world the tone was supposed to be very different. WFB being 'comedy' and WHFRP being 'tragedy' using the same actors.

As for rules that let you use both fantasy and 40k look no further than Rogue Trader and for *everything* the 'realms of chaos' supplement books. The latter have charts and tables for every races possible statline, rules for converting between the three systems and even basic campaign rules.

Rogue trader itself lets you use your fantasy armies as every single statline in it is something that you could have represented using the avable citadel range or judge dredd or rogue trooper range in 1985/86 when it was penned.

The Jokero are only in it so you could use 'judge dredd' range ape gang figures. Ambulls are D&D 'umber hulks', Catachan Devils are 'carrion crawlers' and enslavers are 'beholders'. Likewise astral hounds are 'blink dogs' and there are rules for zombies and vampires.

All so you could use your fantasy figures as powerful monsters.

In much the same way about 50 per cent of the scenarios and campaign ideas in rogue trader are set of 'medieval planets' with 'inquisitors and marines in disguise' using 'concealed jokaero digital weapons'... simply so you could have a game of WFB with lasers

Lastly the warhammer siege book from that era even has a chart to help you balance point valued when having '40k vs WFB' battles as 40k armies were worth proportionally more and got more useful the bigger they were.

So, its always been there.

Andy Hoare (who wrote a lot for FFG and currently writes for GW) and I do our own thing in our own time, we play old games, we play new ones, we write out own. Most importantly we just have fun....

I lifted this from our blog when we were running a 'wierd mix of rules' campaign in 2006/7, we'd also both recently left GW at that time and had good reasons to be 'down' on GW stuff if we'd chosen to be. I think *anyone* annoyed with something done by GW, FFG, Mantic etc and feels its an attack of their hobby should read this and have a think about it:

"We’re publishing this blog firstly because it amuses us to do so. But just as importantly we’re doing it because we want to inspire other people to do the same sort of thing. We don’t plan to present a definitive set of rules or a system, because that’s not how we do things. This is old-school wargaming, how it always used to be played before everyone decided they couldn’t play without an FAQ and needed a scoring system to measure their worth as a gamer!

As with many ‘veterans’, we’ve developed our own gaming tastes over the years, and fancy trying out a hybrid of all our favourite rules mechanics. Many people look to gaming companies or to the web to provide rules specifically tailored to their own tastes, but fail to find them and end up getting bitter with those companies, who are just catering to the widest market possible. Some people even get so angry they try to set up in competition to the big guys, trying to publish their own, clearly superior version of the rules.

But the point is we do this for fun, because we want to, not because we’re angry about something! Wargamers have been making up rules to suit their own groups since the early 20th century, so there’s no reason we should lose this skill.

Anyway, we’re using the Necromunda rules, and tweaking them as we go along. We’re also using the Necromunda campaign system, with some minor changes. To start off with, we’re simply counting the territories as their equivalent on Jeriko Reach. Each game we play we try out a new house rule, which we’ll post here for ours and your entertainment (and because we’d lose our notes if we just wrote them down)."

If you like the way we think/game you can find loads more here

http://talesfromthemaelstrom.blogspot.co.uk/